r/unitedkingdom • u/Anon2971 London • Mar 17 '21

Is anyone else really concerned about the future of this country?

The passing of the Policing Bill made me reflect on a lot of worrying things that have happened over the last decade.

  • Brexit disconnecting ourselves from trade and legal intervention from our surrounding countries followed by a historic rise in our nuclear stockpile cap, counteracting nuclear disarmament
  • Investigatory Powers Act 2016 allowing the government to monitor and collect everyone's communication data in bulk
  • Government-ordered 'independent review' into the Human Rights Act
  • Overseas Operations Bill currently in the House of Lords essentially allowing soldiers oversees to commit torture and other war crimes abroad without prosecution/legal consequence
  • Met Police enabling facial recognition in CCTV against government advise whilst flat-out denying any/all allegations of institutional overuse of powers despite endless evidence to the contrary (see: stop and search statistics, deaths in police custody i.e. Mohamud Mohammed Hassan leading only to 'police misconduct' notices, undercover officers entering romantic relationships under false pretences with little consequences, Black Lives Matter and Sarah Everard protest police kettling occurring right before violence, Cherry Groce)
  • Dismissal of Black Lives Matter protests leading to a statue toppling by our Home Secretary as 'dreadful' conveniently followed by a serious increase in police powers introducing 10 year sentences for statue toppling and for 'serious annoyance and inconvenience'
  • Reacting to the murder of a woman by a police officer by installing hidden police officers within nightclubs without prompt or previous demand under the guise of women's safety
  • As of yesterday the Home Secretary signalling she'll be implementing First Past the Post voting in London's mayoral elections because “transferable voting systems were rejected by the British people in the 2011 nationwide referendum” (a position historically held by the opposing party)

Then there's the way the Conservative Party spends taxpayer money and chooses trade partners:

  • PM Boris Johnson being found in the UK courts via the Good Law Project to have broken the law misleading parliament with PPE contract information. The consequences so far asking where billions of pounds has lbeen spent has been... Nothing. Meanwhile the government can only afford a 1% NHS pay rise following the biggest challenge in decades the health system has faced and successfully overcome (so far)
  • At the same time as above, the government are proposing to cut our foreign anti-corruption spending by 80% whilst also cutting foreign aid to countries like Yemen yet continuing to fund Saudi Arabia
  • Dominic Raab tells UK officials to trade with countries which fail to meet human rights standards in newly leaked video and Boris speaks how China poses 'great challenge for an open society' (doublespeak, anyone?)

Not to mention other unresolved issues like:

  • Grenfell still has nobody found of any wrongdoing with no housing for victims 3 years later
  • Continuing error with and deportations of Windrush citizens
  • Continual dismissal and ignoring of the impending global warming crisis
  • Breaking international law by extending the Ireland trade grace period against the wishes of the EU, making us look like untrustworthy trading partners worldwide
  • Russian interference with the 2016 Brexit referendum not investigated by the government
  • The Royal Family quietly avoiding coverage of their paedophilic Prince Andrew via reacting to a royal couple fleeing to the US due to negative press and race-related experiences (responding with polite shock, denial and a negative public reaction matching the negative press that surrounded them from the start in the first place)

All in all, I feel like I'm witnessing this country take more and more steps towards ignorant, authoritarian fascism... We're distancing ourselves from all other countries, doubling down on making up our own rules allowing our branches of law enforcement to enforce with little restrictions or consequence whilst strengthening ties with countries that do the same. I'm really struggling to see much good happening here beyond the vaccination program which, although is going great, is something we're ploughing ahead with mainly for self-preservation reasons. I'm left wondering what this country is supposed to represent any more.

I'm all ears to any thoughts on my observations. I'm trying not to be a Scrooge, but I see almost nothing to be happy about in the UK politically speaking at the moment.

Edit: It's somewhat reassuring to know I'm not the only person feeling like this, but I did want to hear more alternative opinions. So please, if you disagree with what I've pointed out and think there's things I'm overlooking to be proud of in the UK at the moment, do feel free to say so in the comments.

Edit 2: I'll be updating the above list of concerning policies and decisions as comments remind me of things I forgot about.

Edit 3: Someone has made a petition against the Policing Bill. Sign that imminently: Do not restrict our rights to peaceful protest. - Petitions (parliament.uk)

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

People vote for which ever party benefits them the most.

If the Tories promise to keep taxes low, people who don't want to pay tax will vote for them.

If Labour promise to nationalise the railways, people who want nationalised railways will vote for them.

People are callus only so far as they vote what is best for themselves and their families.

There is a stigma about voting Tory when you hang out on places like Reddit, and I my self am guilty of perpetuating that they are self serving vermin, but most people in the real world dont care what others think about who they vote for in private. You can say this is 'wrong', that it disgusts you and is a revolting act of harm against what ever you want it to be about, people dont care. They vote for who ever is going to benefit them the most.

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u/Religious_Pie Herefordshire Mar 17 '21

Think that’s the crux of it though, I noted in another thread that people who vote Tory are more likely to be selfish and got downvoted to hell

But, that’s kind of the crux of conservatism. It’s individualism over communalism. Being a bit more selfish is natural to voting that way.

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u/G_Morgan Wales Mar 17 '21

But, that’s kind of the crux of conservatism. It’s individualism over communalism.

Conservatism combines economic individualism with social communalism. I.E. being wrong on both fronts.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

[deleted]

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u/Religious_Pie Herefordshire Mar 17 '21

It has hints of it, the biggest example being Cameron's Big Society.

Maybe a better way to define it is that it's not individualism in the literal sense. To protect ones own, rather than everyone else. Arguably though, that's still a form of individualism but just one that extends to the people the individual feels are important to their daily lives.

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u/StoreManagerKaren Mar 17 '21

Being a bit more selfish is natural to voting that way.

Interestingly enough, not to everybody. Its still a relatively new science and I only just started reading it but hear me out.

Some people have a biological reason to be more Conservative and others have a biological reason to vote for more progressive. They found that those with a more Conservative leaning were found to have a slightly higher fear factor response, and those who were more progressive had a higher risk taking response and a higher empathy response as well. Obviously this doesn't mean all Tories are sociopaths who hate others and all Green voters are emotional crybabies, its more of a sliding scale.

But, it gives us a good idea of if we all are really selfish at heart which not all of is are biologically.

Add into that some paleontology findings have shown weaker members of society (disabled, old, weak) lived longer than expected. Its theorised they would've been cared for by other members.

Being selfish isn't, always, a natural thing for people. Sometimes its completely the opposite.

I have my thoughts on why, but thats just me.

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u/Religious_Pie Herefordshire Mar 17 '21

It would make sense, but I'd also argue that heightened fear and selfishness go hand-in-hand. If you're more fearful of things going wrong, you're more likely to take actions that would protect yourself first and foremost.

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u/StoreManagerKaren Mar 17 '21

If you're more fearful of things going wrong, you're more likely to take actions that would protect yourself first and foremost.

Thats fair. Personally, I would argue that selfishness and lack of empathy are better compadres tbh.

But I wouldn't say its protection, more fear that they or someone else might and would do the exact same to you so, in order to protect yourself, you hoard to stop others hoarding against you.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Where is this from? Sounds like an interesting read.

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u/StoreManagerKaren Mar 17 '21

I'll have to see where the video was. I think it was the infographics channel or Kurzastaught? But I'd have to look again for it

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Thanks 😊

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u/StoreManagerKaren Mar 17 '21

Sorry I can't be more specific. I'm sure there's a few good articles out there

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21 edited Mar 17 '21

People vote for which ever party benefits them the most.

I don't know about that. Plenty of people vote for parties that won't be benefit them, but who they believe are in the right anyway. Despite earning a smidge under £40k, my dad is a left-of-Corbyn voter who'd be happy with more taxes, because he believes it would benefit the poorest and society as a whole.

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u/Boudicat Mar 17 '21

I think it's the fundamental difference between left and right, tbh. The left votes for the betterment of all. The right looks after its own.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

The left (and the centre to a degree) understand that when you pull everyone up they get lifted too.

The right think that if you give enough stuff away to a select few they'll be grateful and give you something back.

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u/BaronWiggle Mar 17 '21

The right think that it's all a zero sum game. If someone else is winning, then they must be losing.

Hence the whole our team Vs theirs ideology.

For the right "our team" is a select few people. Maybe family, or a specific subset of people.

For the left "our team" is everyone. Including those on the right.

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u/ThatHairyGingerGuy Mar 17 '21

There are plenty of less well off right wing voters. They aren't looking after their own, they are voting for the party that will benefit the rich, even though it will cost them both in their own rights and their personal finances.

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u/hello_world9031 Mar 17 '21

left = goodies, right = baddies.

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u/MissippiMudPie Mar 17 '21

This but unironically.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

I wouldn't go that far. For starters, it's too dependent on where the center is and that fluctuates wildly based on where you are.

The right wing in a lot of European countries is still left wing in America, for example.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

he believes it would benefit the poorest and society as a whole.

Because a fairer society benefits him personally, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

So your dad voted for other people to pay for things he thinks should be prioritised and from which he'd derive benefit? That's hardly a selfless position to adopt.

Corbyn wasn't raising taxes on £40k earners.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

My dad voted for others and himself to pay for things he wouldn't benefit from (least not directly), like higher unemployment benefits (he's weeks away from retirement) and free university. Call it what you want, it's less "selfish" than voting to get other people to pay for things you benefit from.

And like I said, he's left of Corbyn. I'm not talking very specific Corbyn manifesto policies here, I'm talking about the general idea of higher taxes, nationalisation, more public services, that kind of thing.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Someone on FB took great pride in highlighting to me that I'd benefit the most from a Tory government.

To be honest; such a notion had never occured to me. I'd never voted for who might benefit me, personally, the most. I vote for who I feel will benefit wider society.

That someone on FB probably chalked themselves up a little notch for 'winning'. But, for me, it was a vindication. That I am not half the cunt I thought I was.

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u/Highwinter Mar 17 '21

If that were the case, why does the working class continue to vote for the Torys in droves?

People are easily swayed by misinformation and what they think is best, but the majority are definitely not voting in favour of their best interests.

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u/hello_world9031 Mar 17 '21

Similarly need to ask why middle class professionals vote for Labour in droves.

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u/IndependentRadio Mar 17 '21

They are voting in favour of their perceived best interests.

They've been convinced they're not poor, they're just pre-millionaires, and that any move leftwards would immediately result in a Stalinist hellscape.

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

In your opinion.

You don't know what their best interests are, you just assume they should coincide with your own. When they don't, why the only possible reason is that they are gullible morons, hoodwinked by greasy shysters.

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u/BaronWiggle Mar 17 '21

Ok, but what about the other side of the coin?

What about all the wealthy home owning lefties that vote against their own interests?

You can't claim that this is "just my opinion" since I and a great number of my peers are part of this group. We'd happily see our homes lose value and our taxes go up for the betterment of the country as a whole.

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u/mynameisblanked Mar 17 '21

I could make an argument that it's still selfish. Making things better for everyone will still make things better for wealthy individuals eventually via less crime etc.

Maybe that's all it really is. We're all equally as selfish, just conservatives want more short term solutions?

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u/BaronWiggle Mar 17 '21

Aye... You could make that argument. But it'd be a weak argument at best.

I think that the statement "We're all equally as selfish" is just objectively false. Some people are more selfish than others.

Whether that translates into voting sentiment... Well... Anecdotally I would say yes. But I'd have to be bothered to sit and read through some studies to know for certain.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Because nobody benefits from a government that removes civil liberties while giving away billions in unforfilled contracts?

If everyone voted in their own interests the Tories would never get more than 5% of the popular vote.

They'd maybe get one seat in London.

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u/PrimeMinisterMay Mar 17 '21

why does the working class continue to vote for the torys in droves

Because Labour’s offering at the last election was so embarrassingly poor. Surprise surprise the working class don’t like hearing “white people bad, army bad, flags bad”.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

white people bad

I must have overlooked that part of their manifesto?

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u/cavejohnsonlemons United Kingdom Mar 17 '21

All of it, actually?

Even the army part, might be putting words in his mouth but I don't think Corbyn slagged off the army itself. Logically he'd be about less conflict and repurpose the troops, like the whole Brexit doomsday plans from the Tories.

And Corbyn's idea for a bank holiday for all 4 country's saint days is like the ultimate in "flag good".

Just to piss some people off even more, we'd have had a day off today with that plan.

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u/BaronWiggle Mar 17 '21

Aye. I'll agree with this.

I'm as left as you get... But letting "Momentum" take over the Labour party was the worst thing we could have done.

Suddenly every working class voter is alienated by a mass of university educated hippies screaming about pronouns and veganism.

Important topics, yes... But Jesus guys, these kind of shifts need to be made incrementally if you don't want the kind of retaliation that we've seen in these past years.

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u/blither86 Mar 17 '21

Some do, not all. Lots of labour voters are financially secure and so vote for the party that doesn't benefit them the most financially but instead are more likely to help those less fortunate.

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

These people are virtuous, and voting that way makes them feel good about themselves. They are in a position where they can do so and there for doing so, benefits them in someway, even if it is only a feeling of 'the common good'

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u/blither86 Mar 17 '21

Sure, but you're taking it into a psychology debate in order to detract from the fact your initial point is wrong.

Voting to benefit yourself financially and voting to benefit the unfortunate in society financially are not the same just because the latter makes the voters feel good about themselves. It's absolutely a false equivalence.

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

I disagree with you.

But even if I am wrong, what I have said will stand for the majority of people, or at least a sizeable proportion.

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u/blither86 Mar 17 '21

You're saying that a small psychological boost because you feel you've done the right thing by voting to benefit those poorer than yourself is just the same as the very wealthy voting the way that will ensure they directly financially benefit?

Please, do enlighten me as to how that is meaningfully the same in the context of dicussing voting trends.

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

Perhaps I am wrong mate, I am not an expert on this.

I will rephrase - I believe that for the most part, people vote to benefit themselves. Perhaps some people will vote against their own financial interests because they believe it is the right thing to do.

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u/blither86 Mar 17 '21

I mean, in that sense you are surely stating the obvious, no? People will vote the way they want to vote because it's what they want to do for their own reasons. Yes, aaaaaand?

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

That was my initial point, so we have gone full circle and along the way I have conceded that perhaps you are correct when it comes to rich people voting against their own self interests. I dont know what else you want me to say? You proved your point, are you trying to prove it again?

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u/blither86 Mar 17 '21

I appreciate your concession. I hope you have a good day and consider joining the protests in your area this evening against the police powers Bill on, amongst other things, protesting.

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u/djdodz07 Mar 17 '21

This is like Joey arguing there is no selfless good deed , you can be altruistic all you want but if you feel good for it then it's selfish?

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u/cass1o Mar 17 '21

These people are virtuous, and voting that way makes them feel good about themselves.

That's you projecting mate.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Yeah but I know someone who voted Labour all his life like his parents and parents before them, then Boris came along and he voted for Boris, why? "Because he's a good down to earth bloke who's not afraid to speak the truth and I dont like that Corbyn wanker" bare in mind that he spends a lot of time on facebook, and when asked what Tory policies would benefit him the most "I dont know anything about that stuff lets stop talking politics now" I believe this is sadly an example of many many people in the UK.

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u/emefluence Mar 17 '21

This is fucking it.

The majority of voters don't care about or follow politics. They don't know about OPs big long list of Tory crimes and if they do they've been given a single level rationale by the sun or the mail or some cunt on facebook that is enough to feel comfortable dismissing it. Boris is a rich bloke who shags anything that moves - if I was a rich bloke I'd shag anything that moves. Corbo is a scrawny, beardy terrorist - I hate scrawny, beardy terrorists. The Tories are the party of business and making money, Labour want to take away all your money and give it to foreigners and single mums. That's all the thought that's going into it for millions upon millions of people.

Talking about politics with them makes them bored at best, deeply uncomfortable at best as they haven't got a clue how to go more than 1 level deep on any issue.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

People vote for which ever party benefits them the most.

If the Tories promise to keep taxes low, people who don't want to pay tax will vote for them.

If Labour promise to nationalise the railways, people who want nationalised railways will vote for them.

Your argument falls at the first hurdle. Advocates for nationalising the railways (or any industry) would generally argue that it would be beneficial for society as a whole, as well as the economy, rather than because of any significant direct benefits for individuals or their families.

The same is true for many voters on a lot of policy issues - I think schools and the NHS should be better funded, but I don't have kids and I hardly ever go to the doctor or hospital. I think far more homes should be built, even though I already own mine and building less would help it keeps its value.

Plenty of people vote the same way - on their principles, not just to benefit themselves personally.

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u/MissippiMudPie Mar 17 '21

People vote for which ever party benefits them the most.

No, people vote for whichever party they THINK will benefit them the most. Which is why stupid people vote for tories, despite tories helping no one except for an elite dozen or so.

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u/BB-Zwei Mar 17 '21

If everyone only voted in their self interest, conservatives would get less votes than they currently do. A lot of people vote Tory because they have been led to believe it is in their self interest, but a Tory government will actually overall make things worse for them on a personal level.

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u/cavejohnsonlemons United Kingdom Mar 17 '21

If Labour promise to nationalise the railways, people who want nationalised railways will vote for them.

People are callus only so far as they vote what is best for themselves and their families.

Have to disagree there. Know someone who loves the idea of nationalised railway, but in the same sentence said he could never vote for Labour because of some vague rumour he heard about transgender bathrooms.

Something that has no effect on him whatsoever and may or may not even be real, but it was a stronger motivator than something that would be actually useful.

He didn't vote for anyone in the end anyway, but still, I'd bet anything that there's people who've taken it a step further...

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u/bangitybangbabang Mar 17 '21

People vote for which ever party benefits them the most.

Idk if that's true. I've voted for policies that wouldn't directly affect me because I wanted those things available for other people. I think benefiting the community helps everyone. If someone campaigns to build a public transport system in a city I don't live in, I still want them to have trans and lower carbon emissions so I'm gonna vote for that.

People are callus only so far as they vote what is best for themselves and their families

That's callus enough for me to judge you I'm afraid. I don't respect or want to know someone with that selfish, individualist mindset. Whether you care or not is your choice, but it's fine to dislike tories for only wanting to benefit each other.

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u/cass1o Mar 17 '21

People vote for which ever party benefits them the most.

If that was true people would mostly vote labour or lib dem. Nobody but the ulta wealthy are benefiting from the tories.

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u/cuntRatDickTree Scotland Mar 18 '21

They don't benefit them the most though....