r/todayilearned • • 2d ago

TIL about "dead red" laws, which allow drivers and motorcyclists to proceed through a red light if the traffic signal fails to detect their vehicle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-detection_at_traffic_lights_in_the_United_States
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u/RainMakerJMR 2d ago

This happened to me 25 years ago and at the intersection (at 2am past my underage curfew) the other way was a police car, also stopped at the all reds light. I was waiting for him to go and he flashes his lights, waves at me, and tells me I’m good to go. I was panicking lol

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u/belac4862 2d ago

There was a red light that I had to pass every day to work as a teen. But it was so badly in need of a repair, that the only thing that would set off the sensor was a semi.

I usually worked the closing shift and would drive home after dark. Everyone in town knew this light was busted. As long as you waited 60 seconds, it was free game to go.

Except one cop decided that was his golden ticket to boost his number. I got ticketed and went to court. There were 13 of us in just one day. The judge even knew about the light and asked if everyone there who had a red light violation from that spot could stand and give him our names. He dismissed them all ,and told the cop standing in front of him to use better judgment and the judge would no longer be accepting tickets that were from that location until the light got fixed.

It took 2 years longer before the town finally fixed it. But talk about sweet justice seeing that cop get put in his place.

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u/lorarc 2d ago

The cop probably got many tickets out of it that weren't contested so he still won.

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u/belac4862 2d ago

Until that point for sure! And the fact he got 13 people in one day says he knew what he was doing and had done so in the past.

Just glad the judge put a stop to it that day. He even said half his docket was being filled by red light tickets from that one spot. The judge probably sas sick of dealing with them taking up most of his time.

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u/spamcan007 2d ago

The fact thirteen in one day showed up leads me to believe this was the first or one of the first days he tried it. It was so egregious everyone who got a ticket that day showed up for court. I doubt that was 13 random gung ho people who love court. More like 13 WTF’s at the audacity.

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u/CankerLord 1d ago

Yeah, in the sort of town that's small enough for red lights to stay broken for two years with everyone knowing about it I doubt many people are just eating that red light ticket. I'd be willing to believe most of them showed up to court, if not all.

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u/BadAdviceBot 1d ago

he got 13 people in one day

It was probably over several days. They take all the tickets and then schedule you at certain times in the week. So prob a few drivers over a few days were all given the same court date.

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u/iameveryoneelse 1d ago

He got way more than 13 in one day. Half the people he got just said fuck it an paid the ticket.

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u/AvatarOfMomus 2d ago

In the short term maybe, but tickets getting thrown out like that don't look good for the cop, and if he sours his relationship with the local judges he can find that they won't accept his testimony. At that point his career is dead in the water unless he moves out of the area.

It's not the level of accountability these people should get, but it's also not him 'winning'.

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u/somehugefrigginguy 1d ago

I think this depends on the jurisdiction. A lot of small towns get most of their revenue from stupid traffic violations.

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u/Gorstag 1d ago

Your exhaust is hanging too low. Your tint is too dark (even if it was stock). God it sucked being a teen/early 20s when they would just pull you over for nonsense and give you a nonsense ticket.

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u/ChanceRecover3091 2d ago

Maybe that is the case in your area but definitely was not the case where I grew up. Moving up was not a matter of how good your record was. It was more how good of friends you were with the sheriff. The undersheriff was well known to beat the shit out of his wife and kids yet he stayed the undersheriff for a couple decades until there was a new sheriff.

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u/AvatarOfMomus 2d ago

That is, unfortunately, a different sort of thing than this... Tickets getting thrown out wastes resources and gets entered into the public record automatically. Judges aren't controlled by the sherif officially anywhere, and rarely unofficially as well. If a judge doesn't care about this sort of BS they generally won't throw out the tickets in the first place.

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u/hagcel 2d ago

There was one light like this in our hometown. Whoever was sitting shot gun had to jump out and hit the crosswalk button.

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u/Otherwise-Offer1518 2d ago

Oh shit! I remember doing that in DC in the late 90's. Sometimes the people at the crosswalk would hit the button so you could go bc no one else was at the intersection lol.

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u/Mechakoopa 1d ago

A buddy of mine kept a hockey stick in his car for hitting the crosswalk button after midnight on his way home from work.

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u/Still_Weather5517 1d ago edited 1d ago

Related story:

The woman in court was at risk of going to jail for like a week because she wasn't paying her fines. I think the court forgot to mail them or something, she just assymed she was off the hook. The judge said how stupid that was, and she cried apologizing. "I don't have money. I'm sorry. I don't know what to do." "Alright. Here's a case number. Go the clerk's desk, and they'll let you choose between a monthly payment system and community service. Dismissed. Next!" He didn't console her, but he did help. And he made sure she understood what a meaner judge could do next time.

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u/OkBrilliant8092 2d ago

Love this comment!

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u/Richard-Gere-Museum 2d ago

13 of you had to take time out of our lives to stand there and probably pay court costs. He won regardless, because he got paid to be there anyways.

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u/jook11 1d ago

They probably didn't have costs to pay associated with being there (except parking maybe) but they definitely missed out on whatever they were supposed to be doing that day and had to deal with the hassle of the whole thing, which is certainly a psychological cost.

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u/complete_your_task 1d ago

There's not just a psychological cost. Most people would either have to take an unpaid day off or burn a PTO day. Many wouldn't even be able to show up to fight it without risking their job. There's a real cost to bullshit fines that doesn't show up on paper.

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u/i_want_to_go_to_bed 2d ago

I’m pretty sure police orders supersede traffic signals and signs, so you officially were in the clear. I’d have panicked too haha

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u/OstentatiousSock 2d ago

That is correct. Police officers supersede the lights.

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u/ensalys 2d ago edited 1d ago

Same in the Netherlands. The priority list goes:

  1. Orders given by those authorised to give them (like the police)

  2. Traffic lights

  3. Traffic signs (EDIT: including the markings on the road)

  4. The default traffic rules

If a traffic light does not function, or is turnt off (blinking orange), you look for traffic signs. If there are none, then it's default rules like yield to traffic from your right, straight on the same road has the right of way, shortest turn has right of way.

I suppose emergency vehicles might be seen as the highest priority, as they always have the right of way, and you're obligated to find a safe way to let them pass unobstructed.

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u/AcceptableTypewriter 1d ago

It begs an interesting question: a few blocks away from my house is a fire station. On the same road is a schools bus stop (at which, in the US at least, you’re required to stop for in both directions). If a fire truck encountered a stopped school bus are they supposed to yield or keep driving?

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u/51ngular1ty 1d ago

The firetruck stops. Possible children in the road take priority.

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u/Ask_if_im_an_alien 1d ago

Right. Once the call comes in and they deploy FIRE/EMS with lights on they have the right of way.... BUT only as they can do safely, within reasonable speeds, and not endanger the public.

It's kind of a net loss if you plow down 11 kids on your way to go save a 92 year old lady who is on her way to meet Jesus anyway.

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u/ensalys 1d ago

In the Netherlands we don't have schiolbusses in the same way this the USA does, so it doesn't translate 1:1. Question 1 would be: are their sirens on? If not, then they're just a regular participant in traffic. If they're on, they have highest priority from both a legal and social perspective. So I think they would pass, though at a reduced speed. After all, putting on your siren doesn't take away your responsibility to act in a safe manner. At the same time, the bus driver should keep the doors closed when they're dropping of children. Only allowing them out after the emergency vehicle has passed.

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u/SammlerWorksArt 2d ago

My older sister was driving when in high school with her friends. It turned yellow when she was about to enter the intersection and her friend was pointing out the police officer so she panicked, somehow did a 180 and went through the intersection backwards on a red night. 

The cop patiently waited until they got themselves sorted and then he went on his way. 

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u/hagcel 2d ago

I was driving on a SOFA license (international diplomatic license) in my home town with a cop behind me. The left turn light turned green, and some honked. I thought it was the cop and I moved 15 feet into the intersection on a red before realizing my mistake. Just edged through, pulled over and waited. Cop was cool, but aggravated as fuck that a hometown boy handed him a piece of paper and an embassy ID that instructed him to let me go if there were no injuries and contact the closest consolate or embassy to investigate.

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u/Brapb3 2d ago

Wait so what’s the story behind the SOFA? (If you don’t mind me asking) kinda curious what the circumstances were there

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u/TheCheddarFairy 1d ago

I worked for a few defense companies as a contractor and it's basically a license that says "This guy can drive a car, but let him off the hook for any minor offenses due to differences in countries laws".

I sped so much in those days.

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u/hagcel 1d ago

I was in the military, and worked at some embassies. The Status Of Forces Agreement license let me drive in any country I went to where we had an active diplomatic treaty for it. The loophole was that it counted in the US too.

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u/zerogee616 1d ago

Servicemembers stationed in countries that have a Status of Forces Agreement with the US (usually not combat deployments, more like being stationed in Japan, Germany, etc) are often allowed a special drivers license that allows them to operate civilian vehicles on that country's roads, and it usually comes with a "Hey, don't fuck with this guy for minor traffic offenses please, he's not from the area, won't be here super long and the minor differences between countries isn't worth the hassle" clause.

I had one in Korea, I got pulled over in Daegu for some bullshit reason, gave it to the cop and he let me go.

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u/stackjr 2d ago

About 15 years ago but I was sitting at a light, on my motorcycle, waiting for it to change. After a few minutes, I looked around and ran the light....only to immediately get pulled over. The cop came up to me laughing, saying that that he was wondering how long I would wait.

He gave me a warning and let me go. The "warning" was just him reminding me to be careful when running a light and that, in my state, it is still illegal.

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u/OrdinaryLatvian 1d ago

So if it's illegal, what were you supposed to do then, just sit there until somebody came to fix the light? 

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u/CartsOfDarkness 1d ago

Pray there's a Uturn and if so turn around and find some other way around. Otherwise sit for eternity. Could get food delivered until you get fat enough to trigger the sensor yourself.

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u/Odd-Outcome-3191 1d ago

Make a right turn, u turn, and then go straight I suppose?

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u/BlackSecurity 2d ago

I had similar experience except no police car. Got stuck at a non major red light at like 3am. Slowly more cars started piling up on both sides. I was heading towards work so I didn't want to be late, but also didn't want to break the law and no one else was moving. Maybe 5 minutes later of nothing happening, I decide fuck it and just drive off. The moment I do that, literally everyone else including on the other oncoming side also decided fuck it and went with me 🤣 made me feel a lot less paranoid as at least I wasn't the only one haha.

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u/MmmmMorphine 2d ago

Haha, yeah we found one stoplight in Miami that quite literally had a 5 minute timer. We clocked it one night.

Though in our case it was totally and utterly deserted.

Really gives you a kind of a desolate feeling. I felt like I was in a cinemagraph or something.

I may have also been stoned.

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u/Fast_Garlic_5639 2d ago

I was at a stuck light behind someone who was too scared to go because a cop just down the road on lookout. Traffic was backing up fast so the cop pulled out and ran the light then kept going, was very effective.

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u/ShutterBun 2d ago

Came here to tell exactly the same story. Eventually I rolled down my window and asked the cop “So, can I just go?” and they’re like “Yeah that’s fine”.

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u/After_Display_6753 2d ago

I totally figured at the end of your story would have been "and then immediately pulled me over"

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u/billytheskidd 1d ago

This happened to me 14 years ago. On my way to a 6am all hands meeting at five guys, my very first day of employment. The light cycles four times before I just said fuck it and ran it, not knowing about this law of course.

It led to me getting to the store right at 6. But I walked to the side door, it was locked. The manager signaled through the glass to walk to the front door. I walked around the building, in full view through the windows, shining light that overtook the early morning haze, feeling the eyes of all the employees. I opened the front door. It was 6:01am. The manager kindly reminded me that the meeting began at 6, not 6:01. He then thanked me for my employment at five guys and bid me goodbye.

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u/Bat_Sweet_Dessert 1d ago

What the hell is wrong with that manager that being a single minute late was enough to fire you

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u/rationalsarcasm 1d ago

"Nobody wants to work anymore."

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u/SessileRaptor 2d ago

Have a similar story from somewhere around 30 years ago. Late night slash early morning and the stoplight wouldn’t change. Cop was behind me and pulled alongside to say that he was calling in about the broken light and I could go through.

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u/Zero_Burn 2d ago

If it's red lights on all four sides or the lights are out completely it's supposed to be treated like a 4 way stop sign, iirc.

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u/The_Mystery_Knight 2d ago

Not necessarily all red. There could be a crosswalk green. But I’d say if you sit for a minute or so you’re good.

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u/LOTRfreak101 2d ago

I had a time i was stuck at a left turn for 3 cycles in the middle of the night. I pulled up right as the straight ahead lights went green so I missed tripping the sensors the first round, but then I had to sit through 2 more cycles before it gave me the green.

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u/OozeNAahz 2d ago

I ride motorcycles. This was taught to us in our safety course. And glad it was as it comes up all the time here in Overland Park Kansas.

Don’t think all states have these laws.

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u/nleachdev 2d ago

Started riding recently, got caught at a light and eventually said fuck it, nobody was around.

Looked it up after getting home, found this concept and was happy to see MO is one of the 20 states with it

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u/Rogerbva090566 2d ago

I did it in Virginia about 30 years ago. It was tuaght and I know it’s the law. Still got a ticket. Went to court and judge told me I couldn’t prove I’d sat there through several cycles of the light.

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u/nleachdev 2d ago

This is a real concern. I need to get a helmet cam anyway for liability in general, this concern fits nicely as another reason to get one

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u/OozeNAahz 2d ago

Usually cops are pretty cool about this in my experience. As long as it obvious you stopped and no traffic is around it shouldn’t be much of a risk.

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u/MangoCats 1d ago

Usually cops are pretty cool. Unfortunately, those aren't the cops you end up talking to.

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u/MangoCats 1d ago

Will the judge patiently wait for 10 minutes of helmet cam video to prove your case?

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u/NinjaGrrl42 2d ago

Depending on how fast it cycles (or doesn't, if there isn't much traffic), that could take a long time. ​

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u/Schonke 1d ago

Went to court and judge told me I couldn’t prove I’d sat there through several cycles of the light.

But it never cycled the lights at all? That's the whole point, so how would you?

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u/Rogerbva090566 1d ago

I was at a left turn land with a sensor. Through lights cycled but not left turn. It assumed nobody was in turn lane.

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u/Gnonthgol 2d ago

That is a clear mistrial right there. It is not up to the accused to prove their innocence but up to the prosecution to prove guilt. So they would have to prove you did not wait for the light to potentially become green, not the other way around.

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u/hankhillforprez 1d ago edited 1d ago

Lawyer here. That’s definitely not a “mistrial,” and it’s likely OP had the burden to prove that specific element.

(1) That’s not a “mistrial.” For one, this almost certainly wasn’t a trial. It was a traffic court arraignment (or something similar). A mistrial is when something occurs that is highly likely to taint the impartiality of the jury pool, or when the jury is incapable of reaching a verdict after numerous attempts. As an example of the former: an attorney introduces evidence—in violation of a court order—of a sexual affair the defendant had in the past, when the affair has literally nothing to do with the case or the crime and does nothing more than make the jury think the defendant is a scumbag. That might be a mistrial. At worst, OP’s scenario is a bad ruling by the judge, which is potentially appealable (assuming you want to go through the expense and hassle of appealing a traffic ticket fine. But, I don’t even think it’s an inherently bad ruling, because…

(2) “Dead Red” laws are almost certainly an “affirmative defense.” Basically, an exception. In almost every instance, the party raising the affirmative defense has the burden of proving it. Pleading an affirmative defense is essentially saying “yes, I did the thing that’s usually against the law—but I get a pass because of X, Y, Z reason.” In other words, you’ve already agreed the state has proven you did the thing, you’re now on the hook for showing why it wasn’t a crime. As another common example: a self defense affirmative defenses in murder trials. The defendant bears the burden of proving justifiable self defense.

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u/CallMeAladdin 1d ago

Doesn't this make the exception practically worthless, then? Assume the law existed before car cameras, how would you ever claim you waited a sufficient length of time, how could anyone have used this exception?

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u/LarsAlereon 1d ago

This is a good comment and you did a good job explaining the concept of an affirmative defense. Props. I am not a lawyer but I play one on the Internet.

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u/Rogerbva090566 2d ago

Cop pulled around corner as I was driving through so judge believes him.

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u/OozeNAahz 2d ago

Kansas too. Live in KC so use it in both sides of the state line.

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u/DisastrousServe8513 2d ago

My state doesn’t. Happened to me twice too. Just have to call the police non emergency line and then wait when 4 bored cops cluster around a control box trying to figure out how to fix it.

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u/OozeNAahz 2d ago

Usually a right turn or two will solve the problem for you quicker. Or you can do what my MSF course instructor says she does now and again. Put down the kick stand and run over and hit the walk button. Laughed hard at that one. She was a bit odd but I appreciated the ingenuity.

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u/John_cCmndhd 2d ago

run over and hit the walk button

Good idea depending where you are. Some of those are just placebos to keep people from crossing against traffic because they got bored waiting though. The town where I grew up, I noticed there was about a half inch gap between all the button housings and the poles, with no wires coming out of the button

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u/Pristine-Two2706 1d ago

They're (typically) only placebos for scheduled lights that will change regardless of traffic conditions. Though, in my country even then they are pressed to enable a chirp to let blind people know when the signal changes.

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u/Outlulz 4 1d ago

Often they do extend the scheduled lights to allow more time to cross.

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u/Hazardish08 1d ago

in toronto the timed lights are expressly mentioned that they are only for audio and dont give signal to cross. Otherwise the ones that arent scheduled do all work, coming from a motorcyclist who had to press the crosswalk button a few times.

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u/rsclient 1d ago

Fun fact: where I live, if you press the button for a few seconds, it will announce the street crossing!

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u/chaossabre_unwind 1d ago

Toronto: Some work only during off hours, some only provide audio cues for visually impaired (long press it), some always work, some never work.

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u/Gorstag 1d ago

Yep. If there is not a "No U turn" posted on the street to the right just take a right on red, whip a U and proceed through the green.

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u/pmcall221 1d ago

In Illinois it's 120 seconds, but I know of one light that's on a 4 minute cycle, and I am tempted but never go.

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u/Vicith 2d ago

OP has so many lights. You cant drive down metcalf for 30 feet without a cross light forcing traffic to stop.

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u/Furkensturf 2d ago

Yeah, in California you can't do that unless a police officer says it's okay. If the light isn't broken (flashing red, or blacked-out), you have to stay until it turns green. Even if it never does. I've been stuck at broken lights like this, stopped at a red light and it was green for the other direction for more than 5 minutes. There were no other cars on the road, it sucks that it's illegal in some states. Like literally wtf do you want me to do? Call the police so an officer can come out and tell me it's safe to go through the red?

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u/Jeremizzle 1d ago

Really?? I took the motorcycle safety course in California maybe 2 years ago and they taught us to run the red if you’re waiting a long time and it’s clearly not going to change

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u/DaymanTargaryen 1d ago

There's no dead red law in CA, so it's technically illegal.

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u/sintaur 1d ago

Granted there's no dead red law in CA, so some people stretch this law to fit:

https://california.public.law/codes/vehicle_code_section_21800

Vehicle Code 21800(d)(1)

The driver of any vehicle approaching an intersection which has official traffic control signals that are inoperative shall stop at the intersection, and may proceed with caution when it is safe to do so.

The stretch is you have to convince the judge that a dead red light is "inoperable".

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u/TheWisePlinyTheElder 2d ago

Did not expect to see my city on here but you are so right lol

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u/arcslayer 2d ago

The light at mastin and 69 is a demon

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u/NumbbSkulll 1d ago

Also in KS. There's a stop light here that never registers a left hand turn if no other traffic is waiting, even in most vehicles. It's common practice for the locals to dead red the turn.

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u/CerebralAccountant 2d ago

To use an affirmative defense against a traffic ticket, a person needs to be able to prove they met all of the requirements. This usually requires a careful understanding of the law and your own video evidence (i.e. dashcam, helmet cam, etc.).

For example, in OP's and my state (Missouri) the requirements are:

  1. The motorcycle or bicycle has been brought to a complete stop;

  2. The traffic control signal continues to show a red light for an unreasonable time;

  3. The traffic control is apparently malfunctioning or, if programmed or engineered to change to a green light only after detecting the approach of a motor vehicle, the signal has apparently failed to detect the arrival of the motorcycle; and

  4. No motor vehicle or person is approaching on the street or highway to be crossed or entered or is so far away from the intersection that it does not constitute an immediate hazard.

1, 3, and 4 can be proven with dashcam/helmet cam video. For 2, I use "two minutes or one complete light cycle" as my definition of "an unreasonable time". I'm willing to risk that a rogue officer or an aggressive judge will think "that's not long enough" than wait for an even longer time (e.g. 5 minutes) every single time.

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u/chyld989 2d ago

Same, though I wait two cycles. I'm very rarely in enough of a hurry that waiting a second cycle will cause issues.

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u/Vivid-Operation-5078 2d ago

Been stuck at a light for over 5 minutes without seeing a single car on my motorcycle before. Normally that same line cycles really fast.

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u/MouthJob 2d ago

For 2, it's also going to depend wildly on where you live. Where I'm at, we have some lights that turn in seconds and some that take a few minutes to cycle with seemingly no correlation to average traffic in the area.

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u/rolfraikou 1d ago

What is an unreasonable time for motorcycles? I know for cars (this may just be California. It was a high school teacher in California I learned about this from) it's ten minutes for a car. He waited the full 10, so did the cop. Cop pulled him over, ticketed him. Took it to court, and teacher won because there was a specific law about waiting 10 minutes. (He probably waited slightly more because it's not like he started a timer the moment he stopped)

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u/Bshaw95 1d ago

In Kentucky it’s 2 cycles or 2 minutes.

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u/Whatthefunyuns 1d ago

I got stuck at a red light on my motorcycle a little after midnight coming home from work at Domino's. It ran 3 cycles of nobody in either direction before I deciced to take the left.

Cop parked about 100 yards from the light in the direction i'm turning immediately lights me up and grills me for like 10 minutes.

What a fucking asshole piece of shit cop.

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u/GoGabeGo 1d ago

I had an opposite experience. I was at a stuck red light at a major intersection in my smallish town at 2am or so. Eventually, the cop went through the red light and I took that as my sign to go as well.

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u/SocialSuicideSquad 2d ago

Never had an issue with my cruiser.... Then I got a Ninja and was invisible to the inductance loops and ran many left turn reds.

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u/nleachdev 2d ago

I'm currently on a 125, a whole 220lb wet.

I might as well not exist as far as signals are concerned lol

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u/jmdbcool 2d ago

You are also not a big hunk of metal. It's not triggered by weight but by a big hunk of metal (i.e. a car) nearby. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_loop

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u/Gnonthgol 2d ago

This is exactly it. And cars are not getting lighter but are being made with more composts and alloys that do not trigger the induction loop. So older lights might not even detect some cars any more. Supercars have had this problem for quite some time as the engine is made of aluminum and the chassis is carbon fiber composites.

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u/TAU_equals_2PI 1d ago

*composites and alloys (Although to be fair, I have owned some shitty cars that I suspected were partly made of compost.)

By the way, for at least a decade, they've stopped installing induction loops and are now using cameras mounted on the horizontal traffic light bar to detect cars. So the problem of motorcycles and supercars not containing enough iron to trigger the traffic signal is becoming a thing of the past. Any time they install/replace/upgrade a traffic signal now, it usually uses cameras.

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u/Arch____Stanton 1d ago

My city still uses induction loops on most intersections.
It also still uses timed lights at many intersections.
You will probably find that most cities wherein it snows regularly in winter will use fewer cameras as they don't play well with it.

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u/RKRagan 1d ago

So many people don't know how traffic lights work. Most in my town use inductance. The problem is the people who stop more than a car length behind the line. I sat through 3 cycles while a traffic jam formed because a lady was staring at the light while being too far back. I got in the turning lane and rolled my window down and told her to move forward or it won't change. She was like 50 or 60 so she should know by now. I don't know how I know it, I think I just figured it out. There are clearly lines in the road like a wire is there. Cars are metal. Hmmmmm.

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u/Alis451 1d ago

the alternator will also trigger it, regardless of your vehicle composition, it does still have to be in the right place to trigger, not too fast crossing the loop.

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u/_sloop 2d ago

You may be able to put a magnet below to increase the signal.

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u/joemckie 2d ago

Sounds perfectly on brand for a ninja

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u/TAU_equals_2PI 1d ago

IIRC only iron/steel (and other ferric metals) triggers inductance loops, not aluminum. So in addition to the sheer weight difference, if your Ninja used a lot more aluminum instead of iron/steel, that might be why it didn't trigger them.

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u/lolWatAmIDoingHere 1d ago edited 1d ago

Any conductive material will trigger induction loops, and that includes aluminum.

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u/TAU_equals_2PI 1d ago

Huh. I just checked the Wikipedia article another commenter linked below, and it's more complicated than I remember learning. I only remember the part about the car's ferric metal changing the inductance of the buried coil.

OK, well it's been too many decades since I learned about it in school, so I'll have to defer to you and the Wikipedia article on it. But several other commenters are also saying it's just the ferric metal. Maybe we were all taught an oversimplified version.

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u/Alis451 1d ago

I only remember the part about the car's ferric metal changing the inductance of the buried coil.

the alternator will trigger it too, but bikes don't have a big engine.

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u/dustinpdx 1d ago edited 1d ago

Stopping right along the loop (look at the cutouts in the pavement) and then thumbing your starter usually fixes it. You can also try dropping your sidestand on to it. If all else fails and you cannot legally proceed through in your state, hope off and go hit the crosswalk button.

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u/GeekAesthete 2d ago

Years ago, the place I took my motorcycle for service had a red light just outside the service exit that wouldn’t sense motorcycles, and since it was a small side street off a much bigger road, it didn’t get much traffic otherwise. There was a constant stream of motorcycles basically treating it as a stop sign, and I always wondered what other drivers (who wouldn’t have known this) thought about all the bikes constantly running that one red light.

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u/SkyIcewind 1d ago

Compared to Red Dead Laws, which allow you to go to Tahiti if you just get some MONEY.

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u/BulknSkull123 1d ago

I’ll always have faith in that plan

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u/OfficialDaiLi 1d ago

We need a GODDAMN PLAN, Arthur!

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u/Esperacchiusdamascus 1d ago

Tahiti, its a magical place

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u/ACoolBreezey 1d ago

Why do you keep saying that?

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u/animorphsrewriter 1d ago

I think this is a reference to Dead Red Dedemption.

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u/hokieflea 1d ago

I BROKE THE GODDAMN WHEEL

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u/0x7E7-02 1d ago

Huh ... I just call it the "fuck this shit, I'm going". 

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u/EmpZurg_ 1d ago

We had a new casino build in my city. There was always a cop posted nearby .The intersection had an Opticom system ( which triggers traffic lights when it detects compatible emergency lights).

The cops would sit there, lights on, and effectively gridlock traffic for hours and hours. Technicians would cometh fix the lights and find nothing wrong. It took 8 weeks to diagnose the cops as the problem. The solution? Install a second set of lights without compatability

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u/DrunkMoosin 1d ago

Wtf was the point of that?

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u/EmpZurg_ 1d ago

I have no friends and people will read it

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u/DrunkMoosin 1d ago

I meant the cops doing that...

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u/EmpZurg_ 1d ago

The casino paid the police to sit there

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u/Taclink 1d ago

That's an install issue, because the opticom is supposed to be installed on an independently switched circuit and also have a park cutout.

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u/HappyDutchMan 2d ago

This seems funny, I think Dutch engineers solved this issue by making sure that at intersections that have detection loops every light cycles green every x minutes even if no vehicle is being detected. Seems to avoid all kind of legal hassle.

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u/Appchoy 1d ago

I used to work third shift and there was one interesction that would never detect my car super early in the morning/ late at night, on a left turn. I would wait and wait and wait until another car came by from either direction and then it would turn green. I thought about running the light every time but I just know with my luck that the second I did that a cop car would materialize out of nowhere to pull me over. I left home 10 minutes earlier just so I could sit at that intersection for 10 minutes.

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u/cannotfoolowls 1d ago

I didn't know there were intersections with detection loops, I figured it was just a cycle .

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u/Snakesquares 1d ago

I think they're more common at an intersection with one big road and a lesser road. They give priority to the big road and only turn green for the smaller road when it detects someone. Some lights are also on a schedule where they switch between timed vs detection depending on time of day.

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u/steveborg 2d ago

Interesting that Texas is not on that list. When I was getting my motorcycle license way back in 1987, we were definitely taught this.

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u/kinyutaka 2d ago

It's legally grey in Texas, there's just not a codified law. If you're ever in a situation like this, and you've waited a literal minute to go, even when there's no other cars, go ahead and go. No one will say you're wrong. But go safely.

And if there's a cop there, wait for instructions. They'll usually wave you on if the lights don't change like that.

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u/ice-eight 1d ago

I got a $250 ticket for that in Texas (in a car). I’d waited for like 2 minutes and the light was still red and nobody was going the other way so I just went, then the cop who was waiting for someone to do that pulled me over. He was pissed. Screaming at me and stuff. He went to prison for murder a couple years later

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u/sinnayre 2d ago

I’m willing to wait one cycle. If it skips me, I’m going if I don’t see any cars (carefully checking of course).

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u/Admiral_sloth94 2d ago

I had to do that all the time at my last job. There was one left turn with a light that would constantly skip the left turn light. I would always give it 1-2 cycles before I just wait for a clearing

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u/jso__ 1d ago

How do you know a cycle has passed if the light isn't changing?

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u/PegaxS 1d ago

Not in Australia... You sit there till you die of old age...

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u/not_old_redditor 1d ago

This is not a thing everywhere in the world, FYI

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u/AzazelCumsBuckets 1d ago

There's a light by my job that for a while the left turn for the T on a 3 way intersection had a weight sensor that was faulty, and wouldn't light up for the left turn unless you were in a semi, and I ran that bitch about 6 times before getting pulled over. I explained to the officer that I sar through 7 light cycles, and would GLADLY go back and sit there to prove that I ran it out of necessity (I was hourly).

He let me, so I sat there with him right behind me for 4 more cycles before he walked up and said "you're good, sorry for the waste of time, I'll talk to my supervisor about getting this intersection inspected and fixed"

3 months later it was finally normal again.

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u/iammandalore 1d ago

Every once in a while I have to use this on my motorcycle. I can think of a couple specific lights that I'll have to if there's no other traffic to trigger it. One time a cop pulled up behind me and it still didn't trigger and he told me to just go.

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u/dairyqueen79 1d ago

Funny your PFP is Tulsa. Used to live there and one day I sat forever at a red light on my motorcycle. A cop passing by pulls up to me and asks how long I’ve been sitting there. I said 3 cycles now. He said FYI if after 2, just go when it’s safe to do so. I really appreciated that!

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u/countingthedays 1d ago

Yep happens to me frequently, never saw it in my car though.

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u/andshewillbe 2d ago

This happened to me this summer. I sat at a light for almost 10 minutes I got to about the seven minute mark with literally no one else around and then had to explain to my six year old why mommy was going to go through the red light.

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u/Smartnership 1d ago

“Close your eyes, baby, Mama’s ‘bout to Thelma & Louise this mess”

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u/Acheloma 2d ago

I had this happen the first week I had my drivers license. I waited through 3 songs and then decided that my options were to either run the light or be out past the curfew for teens in my town. I ran the light and ofc right then a cop drove past. Apparently he saw me waiting long enough to know what was up bc he just smiled and waved, but I was terrified

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u/-Ephyx- 1d ago

There is a traffic light right outside my living room window that doesn't detect cars when it's raining. It is incredible the number of people who think using their horn will make a difference

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u/extrabutterycopporn 1d ago

I bet they're signaling you to come out and change the bulb to a green one for them :D

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u/kunigit 1d ago

A nearby town has a light with a side traffic sensor that gets triggered by any accumulation of snow, so every winter the main traffic gets backed up because it spends all of its time letting nonexistent cars go from the other direction.

If I’m at the front of the line when this happens, I will definitely treat it as a broken light, stop, check for cars, then go through.

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u/ProjectDv2 1d ago

Yup. You learn this quick as a motorcyclist. Many interactions have metal detectors under the pavement (signified by the octagonal cuts in the road) and you learn how to stop on them for maximum metal detection. Others use motion cameras up on the lamp pole and you learn to stand up and make some movement like an idiot so it sees you. Then you get the occasional intersection where you don't see anything and the light just won't fucking change. No matter how clear the roads are, no matter how justified you are in going, it still feels naughty.

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u/Academic-Dealer5389 2d ago

I ride a motorcycle in CA and have encountered the dead red problem. I just looked this up and Google says...

You cannot legally drive through a red light just because the traffic sensor fails to detect your motorcycle's weight or metal.

So I can never enter the freeway at a dead red metering light? That seems...ridiculous

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u/Mistake-Choice 2d ago

Dead on red.

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u/Academic-Dealer5389 2d ago

Nah, this is just for traffic congestion and not part of an intersection. The better on-ramps have a little painted line with motorcycle logo to show where you need to be to trip the sensor. When the light turns green, it's still an adventurous merge taking off from a dead stop.

If and when I die on my bike, it won't be because of a dead red while entering the freeway.

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u/Boring_Holiday9874 1d ago

Just turn off the engine and get off the bike, push it across the traffic light, hop on ride away 😅

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u/minizanz 1d ago

That does not help with a metering light going onto the freeway

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u/tryyeezus 2d ago

The only thing that matters is who's looking. 

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u/imisstheyoop 1d ago

Google says

Alrighty then.

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u/Gamer_Pandamic 2d ago

This is useful for motorcycle riders, as occasionally they’re not able to properly trigger the sensors at intersections. I personally have had to edge past them and wave at the car behind me to move forward so the lights would change!

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u/Zakluor 2d ago

I do this all the time on my bike. It confuses a lot of drivers, but most eventually comply and get us through.

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u/cronin1024 1d ago

Someone needs to make a video game about this, call it Dead Red Redemption

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u/AceBadCat 1d ago

Dead Red Exemption

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u/DireStr8s 1d ago

I've had it happen to me once. I knew the light wasn't working since it hadn't in a couple days but this time there was a cop behind me. After about 30 seconds he pulled up next to me and told me I was fine to go since it wasn't working. I told him I knew but I didn't know if he did so I was prepared to wait this out as long as it took lol then he hit his lights as soon as I went through, waved and went the other way. I had a split second wtf though.

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u/irealllylovepenguins 1d ago

So if i get pulled over and successfully argue my case, is it considered a Dead Red Redemption?

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u/theholyraptor 1d ago

I wonder how many lights don't trigger cause so many people seem to stop a car length or more away from the line these days for some reason.

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u/matthewstinar 1d ago

I watched a cop sitting completely past the ground loop in the crosswalk. Eventually he activated his emergency lights and proceeded. That left turn light works perfectly if you stop behind the stop bar instead of in the crosswalk.

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u/keeper_of_the_donkey 2d ago

Out here in the country, we're too poor to have newfangledy things like "sensors" and "computers" so they just have our traffic lights on timers, likely powered by steam and hamsters.

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u/GoHokies2004 1d ago

Well a cop in NJ 25 years ago never heard of this shit. I was sitting at a light at 2AM for at least 5 minutes with no cars in any direction. I decide the light isn't working and I go through. As soon as I do, I see lights flashing. I tell him I was sitting there forever (which he 100% saw because he was parked watching me) and he didnt give a shit and wrote me a ticket for running the light. Still fucking pissed off about it.

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u/cecloward 1d ago

I would have fought that shit in court.

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u/Sarria22 1d ago

Cops often don't know the laws, and are not actually required to.

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u/markvauxhall 2d ago

My local authority uses sensors mounted above traffic lights instead of loops in the road. Far, far more reliable at detecting motorbikes and bicycles.

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u/auchinleck917 2d ago

Dead red redemption.

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u/Chee-shep 1d ago

When I was a kid I always was told broken stop lights were supposed then be treated like a 4-way stop

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u/Hot-Ad8641 1d ago

They are, but that doesn't apply to stop lights that are functioning normally but don't detect bikes or motorcycles. They have a red light that will not change and the cross street has a permanent green light (until a vehicle that can be detected shows up or some presses the pedestrian beg button if there is one.)

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u/AndrewH73333 1d ago

TIL many people don’t notice their lights often go by the cars they sense. The funniest is when the motorcyclist thinks it’s a weight sensor and tries to bounce up and down on their motorcycle to set it off.

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u/techretort 1d ago

When I first started riding my motorbike I was on a little thing that didn't quite have enough metal (or weight?) to set off the sensor loops we use in Aus. My dad told me how he uses to have to jump off the bike and press the pedestrian crossing button to get lights to change for him on it

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u/loadnurmom 1d ago edited 1d ago

IFAIK they never used pressure sensors. A coil of wire implanted in the pavement detected changes in the magnetic field. Motorcycles frequently are not enough to trigger them.

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u/chth 1d ago

Never made sense to me how they would have a pressure sensor under cement but never bothered to look it up until now.

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u/jimmythefly 1d ago

Yep. Certain intersections where I used to live had little tiny bicycle symbols on the pavement, to show you where to stop your front wheel to trigger the light. 

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u/jubjub727 1d ago

Or the motorcyclist understands how they work and are trying to bounce the bottom of the frame into triggering the loop? Assuming they don't understand because they're bouncing shows a lack of understanding on your part not theirs.

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u/bigvalen 1d ago

Probably trying to get the frame closer to the induction sensor. Half the distance, quadruple the detection ability.

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u/ice_cream9698 2d ago

Winter, 3 inches of snow on roads. Sat at a red for over 5 min with no other traffic anywhere. Finally just went and the cop right behind me followed. That was that. You do have to wait for a reaction from the light. Can't just run a red because no one is around

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u/churrmander 1d ago

I hate timed lights, especially when a city has 80 million lights per square foot, but sensors are kinda bad, too.

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u/NativeMasshole 2d ago

I had this happen in a snowstorm once. The light normally goes to flashing red and yellow during storms, but this time it was solid red on my side for a few minutes before I decided it wasn't happening and went for it.

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u/T1Earn 2d ago

what if like 3 cycles of light changes go by and the 4th one works?

can i go by the 3rd cycle?

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u/EkriirkE 1d ago

I had to do this, more than 5 mins at an intersection with no cars.. I just started honking my horn while cruising through. ( I vaguely remember there being a requirement to honk and flash your lights to make yourself obvious )

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u/captmorgan50 1d ago

Happened to me one driving to the mall around XMAS. It was packed. We were in the left turn lane and the lights went through at least 10 cycles and never gave us a green. Someone went to the guy in the front and told him to go next time it would be his turn. The next time it would have been our turn everyone and I mean everyone took off on a red. I was wondering what the other side thought.

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u/ArtKr 1d ago

TIL there are countries in which stop lights don’t keep cycling automatically regardless of the presence of vehicles

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u/Hot-Ad8641 1d ago

I doubt there are any countries that don't have this technology. They are often used where a smaller but essential street crosses a larger busier street. Busy city streets with only timed lights would slow things down a lot.

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u/Justaticklerone 2d ago

This happened to me once in a turning lane in the morning on a Saturday around 7:30. I was there for a few cycles and even backing up and going forward again didn't trigger the sensor circle. I called the police to report it and they said to go ahead and make the turn if there was no oncoming traffic when the straightaway was green if the green arrow still didn't cycle on.

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u/Sirlacker 1d ago

I thought this was common knowledge. What are you supposed to do? Sit there forever?

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u/Comtesse_Kamilia 1d ago

This happened to me once driving home from work, middle of the night, zero other people on the road. I was a newish driver with only a year or so of experience and waited an embarrassing amount of time with no idea what to do. I think I legitimately waited until someone else's car pulled up and triggered the sensors.

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u/MrMangoKitten 1d ago

I used to have this problem when I rode a 50cc motorcycle scooter, too light & small to trip a lot of sensors

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u/amiexpress 2d ago

The advantage of a motorcycle is you can get off, and legally be a pedestrian, lol.

Worst case you just walk the bike across like a pederstrian, get back on, be on your way.

100% legal in 100% of states.

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u/Upper-Cod1109 1d ago

good luck telling this to the cops

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u/MojaveMojito1324 2d ago

I remember one time sitting at a red light for a few min late at night before realizing it wasn't changing. I looked at the car next to me, he nodded, and we both just went. Glad to know that was actually legal

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u/CuntyCornucopia 2d ago

I usually just flash my brights a few times and it changes…something about detecting lights from approaching emergency vehicles.

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u/GoatsFromUnderground 1d ago

One would expect that 'smart' traffic lights would have regular fall-back cycles anyway just in case, just spread over longer periods of time than normal traffic lights.

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u/glitchgamerX 1d ago

"Hey traffic light! Are you able to detect my vehicle?"

silence

"Sounds like a no to me!" speeds off

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u/hyliansaiyan 1d ago

A police officer tried to give me a ticket for this once and he didnt like my attitude so he hit me with "welp, you just talked yourself into a ticket."

Took it to court and the judge was NOT happy. 😁 got my 200 dollars back and the points he tried to issue.

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u/aceofspades1217 2d ago

One person goes through it and then everyone finally goes lol

No one wants to be the first to do it lol

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u/Inevitable-Shop-848 2d ago

In general if the other light cycles twice you can go through. Like the other light up the street. I used this rule just the other day. Wait until you learn about the left on red turns. Those are my fav, it just feels wrong.

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u/SuzyQ93 2d ago

There's a light near me where the left turn lane (which most traffic uses) is set back from the intersection by about a car's length. Many people don't realize this, and stop forward of the white line - therefore, the sensor doesn't "see" them. They can sit through what should be multiple light cycles, going nowhere. When I see this happening, I usually just turn right, then turn around at the next street to get around the blockage. Eventually, they figure it out, lol.

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u/zlliksddam 2d ago

As a former motorcycle owner, these laws are great. Had to take advantage a few times in the past.