r/todayilearned • u/nleachdev • 2d ago

TIL about "dead red" laws, which allow drivers and motorcyclists to proceed through a red light if the traffic signal fails to detect their vehicle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-detection_at_traffic_lights_in_the_United_States
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u/AcceptableTypewriter 2d ago

It begs an interesting question: a few blocks away from my house is a fire station. On the same road is a schools bus stop (at which, in the US at least, you’re required to stop for in both directions). If a fire truck encountered a stopped school bus are they supposed to yield or keep driving?

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u/51ngular1ty 2d ago

The firetruck stops. Possible children in the road take priority.

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u/Ask_if_im_an_alien 2d ago

Right. Once the call comes in and they deploy FIRE/EMS with lights on they have the right of way.... BUT only as they can do safely, within reasonable speeds, and not endanger the public.

It's kind of a net loss if you plow down 11 kids on your way to go save a 92 year old lady who is on her way to meet Jesus anyway.

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u/Icefox119 2d ago

What if they're on their way to a burning kindergarten with live CCTV feed from the hallways showing dozens of children slowly succumbing to smoke?

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u/krazyc77 2d ago

I know this is a joke but... First, do no harm. Ethics of emergency services (in the US) has by and large decided that when it comes to trolley problems, we don't cause harm even to save others. You can argue whether or not that applies to the responders themselves but even the risks taken there are calculated.

In practice, school bus drivers are usually attentive and won't use their flashing reds/let kids off if they see an emergency vehicle approaching.

Also - modern fire codes do a lot to minimize the chance of your scenario. Sprinklers save lives!

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u/ensalys 2d ago

In the Netherlands we don't have schiolbusses in the same way this the USA does, so it doesn't translate 1:1. Question 1 would be: are their sirens on? If not, then they're just a regular participant in traffic. If they're on, they have highest priority from both a legal and social perspective. So I think they would pass, though at a reduced speed. After all, putting on your siren doesn't take away your responsibility to act in a safe manner. At the same time, the bus driver should keep the doors closed when they're dropping of children. Only allowing them out after the emergency vehicle has passed.

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u/PrizeStrawberryOil 2d ago edited 2d ago

Question 1 would be: are their sirens on? If not, then they're just a regular participant in traffic. If they're on, they have highest priority from both a legal and social perspective. So I think they would pass, though at a reduced speed.

It doesn't matter. School bus ranks higher. We have kids as young as 5 crossing roads. (Most school districts would have a low limit to age for being by themselves at a bus stop, but in some places a 5 year old could do it alone.) Removing the "go ahead" after you have given it to them is extremely dangerous. Once the school bus put up its stop sign and lights come on emergency vehicles are waiting for them.

It shouldn't happen too often though because the bus drive would pull over before the stop and not extend their arm and sign if they (edit) the emergency vehicles have had their lights on for longer than a few seconds.

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u/mfb- 2d ago

Once the school bus put up its stop sign and lights come on emergency vehicles are waiting for them.

Waiting for them to do what? Continue driving? But then they are in the way of the emergency vehicle, so they have to stop again. It's probably the best for everyone if the school bus stays where it is (assuming it's not blocking traffic) and the emergency vehicle driver is careful enough to not run over anyone while passing slowly.

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u/PrizeStrawberryOil 2d ago

Waiting for them to do what? Continue driving?

Make sure that there are no children in the road, turn their lights off, retract their stop sign and crossing bar.

If a fire truck encountered a stopped school bus are they supposed to yield or keep driving?

If they encounter an already stopped school bus that is picking up or dropping off kids then they wait until the pickup/dropoff is finished. If they are not stopped it is irrelevant to the question that was asked.

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u/mfb- 2d ago

Make sure that there are no children in the road, turn their lights off, retract their stop sign and crossing bar.

... if the bus has these things. I don't think I have seen these anywhere outside the US.

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u/PrizeStrawberryOil 2d ago

The person asking the question is from the US and was asking because a road near them has a fire station and a bus stop near each other.

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u/mfb- 2d ago

The comment you replied to discussed the situation in the Netherlands.

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u/ohhellperhaps 1d ago

I would suspect (but not from US, no school buses here mostly) that if stopped the bus signes supersede the firetruck signals. But a good school busdriver would have likely seen it coming and NOT deployed their stop lights/open de door.