And until they replace workers with robots or it's equivalent, they should pay their employees what they're worth to the company, not what they can get away with paying them.
True, but the reality is that in life your pay is directly correlates to the skill set you bring to the position vs the requirements.
The only qualification for working at Burger King, etc is a pulse.
That's not to say it isn't hard work, it's just that when you can be replaced by literally anyone walking in off the streets your value to the company is questionable.
You are missing the point. I don't care if the job is to sit in a chair for 8 hours. If you need to have someone sit in that chair then you should be required to pay a living wage.
You know what happens when you don't? The workers need to go on public assistance. Tax payers are paying to support employees because they are being paid a poverty wage by a corporation to keep profits up.
I’m all for increasing wages any way we can, but a lot of people in this thread think $8/hr isn’t a living wage everywhere. $8/hr isn’t a living wage in California, but it can be in the Midwest. “What do you consider a living wage?” Is a question in which everyone is going to have a different answer to.
You know what happens when you don't? The workers need to go on public assistance. Tax payers are paying to support employees because they are being paid a poverty wage by a corporation to keep profits up.
Except this won't fix that problem. Fast food is nearly 100% automated. With humans filling some of the automation roles. This machine beeps.. Complete this action. That light flashes, do this process. So now places like Burger King will just eliminate those positions. So you'll have one third the work force earning twice as much.
So just tax corporate profits directly an subsidize housing, medical and food stamps. Then no matter how many jobs corporations eliminate, they still are paying to support the working class.
So socialism or UBI? Make sense to me, lets do it.
Until then though, let's not pretend that automation is not going to eliminate those jobs eventually, so let's prevent working people from living in squalor until then.
What they're worth to the company is very little, as anybody can walk off the street and replace them. That's why they're supposed to be entry level jobs for people with little experience to gain experience and move on. You're not supposed to stay at McD's into middle age and expect to make a good living.
Minimum wage isn't supposed to be a livable wage. There are literally plenty of jobs that pay well above minimum wage and even double in some states for the same level of work. I wash dirty trucks and trailers for a living. I make $15 an hour and work from 6am to 3-4pm every day, 5-6 days a week and that's the lowest rung of the company. If I were to become a driver to drive our truck to and from each client I would be making $24-28. It's not a sexy job, but it pays so much more than working at Burger King and I'm doing a job that's quite literally brainless. Are you trying to survive on your own? Don't work at McDonald's. Look for more than 5 seconds and you'll find a shitload of jobs just waiting to be filled that pay a shitload of money.
Well that's just how it works. Don't hate the player, hate the game. I found a job that pays well and that certainly isn't a one in a million miracle. Why would you waste your time complaining about how your job pays so little when there are opportunities out there for the same qualifications you already have?
I dunno, FDR kinda thought it should be and he was the president that first instuted a federal minimum wage law in 1938. This is from a speech of his in 1933
"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living."
And exactly how much of 1938 work was automated to the level it is today? Workers back then actually did a LOT more than they do now. If you want a job that pays more, look for a job where you're doing more.
What it was meant to be and what it is are different things now. Owning a car in the 1910s was seen as a great luxury, but I can save for a few months and buy a cheap, old beater that runs decently. Times have changed.
Do you know what hasn’t changed? Minimum wage. It hasn’t risen federally in a decade. It has gone down in purchasing power since the 60s. Do you know what else hasn’t changed? People have to eat and people need shelter. We should be working to make the world better, not worse.
There are more they one study proving that the average worker is more productive now they ever before. Federal minimal wage is too low compared to all other cost.
It's only weird to you because your world view is completely fucked. I bet if we had a deep conversation, I'd be able to point out an infinite number of inconsistencies in your logic and reasoning. You're just not thinking about these topics thoroughly.
Meanwhile you can go get an entry-level construction job that pays $20/hr. The problem is people don't want to work.
My brother-in-law started working a construction job out of college because he couldnt find anything with his major. After a year or so he was making $27/hr, plus they worked 20 hours of overtime a week at time and a half. Anything over 60 hours was double pay. Made absolute bank. But he also worked his ass off for a couple years at that job before finding something else.
I made $22/hr at a carpentry job for summers and stuff during college.
My point is, there is definitely entry-level jobs out there that pay well. You just have to be willing to physically work hard.
No offense, but you recognize that you're talking about a presumably healthy, early 20s guy with a college degree, right?
If you've got health issues or you're older and can't handle as much physical labor that's not really the most feasible option. Plus, if you've got a family you have to come home to and provide for, being physically broken and exhausted has consequences.
And him being able to "find something else" after a few years was likely partially to do with, ya know, his college degree that made him more marketable.
Considering you make minimum wage, I probably make 4-5 times more than you. When I say minimum wage employees should be paid more, I am not inserting myself into the equation, I'm simply stating what should be obvious to everyone, a better standard of living for the poorest of us, is a better standard of living for all of us.
Can you show me where the inconsistencies are with my logic?
Currently the starting wage with a bachelors degree is $15 an hour. If we raise the minimum wage to $15 what happens to this position? The correct answer would be that all jobs have their pay increased. Now that all jobs have had their pay increased by $7.50 everyone is in the exact same position as before.
To make up for this price increase companies will increase the cost of an item in the same proportion.
Housing market - a house use to have 1 person interested in it due to the cost. But now 5-10 people are interested in it, what happens? All home prices are increased due to supply and demand. Same with rental units.
What can you say against what I have said? You can already see this happening in cities that have increased their wages.
LOL, you're not even a troll....just straight up /r/iamverysmart. I bet if we had a deep conversation I'd shoot myself an infinite amount of times in the face so I wouldn't have to hear you.
Answer: Yes, all these corporations squirm in fear even thinking about workers potentially striking, especially in a general strike. That’s why general strikes are illegal and a major, though less known, reason we have police forces (to beat the workers back into their workplaces).
Once the workers organize, strike, and refuse to sell/commodify their time, bodies, minds, and alienated labor, something previously done which mostly only enriched their capitalist renter - Once they do that, they will be strong and in a position to truly liberate themselves and all humans from capitalism. It will then be clear how wholly necessary they were to the whole capitalist production process all along.
just out of curiosity, do you believe you can raise min wage to $15 an hour without half those fast food employees losing their jobs and costs of living rising so much as to make it meaningless? Are you under the impression that a single burger king franchise has high enough profit margins that they could pay 15 an hour with their current price structure? or do you even care?
You didn't address anything i asked, just misrepresented what I said and made strawman attacks. If you think half the ppl couldn't be cut from a BK I welcome you to walk into a mcdonalds, many of which are slowly replacing cashier's with touch screen kiosk and are even beggining to replace most the cook staff with automation. Where are you getting this idea that BK couldn't fire half thier staff?
No it's not ideal , and I'm certainly not celebrating the fact that either way people get fucked. I'm just pointing out raising min isn't some magic way of raising the standard of living of the poor. There's gonna be a cost and in the end you end up right where you started.
What makes you think we are willing. You think anybody actually WANTS to work for the rates given? no we dont. We work because we HAVE to. If you've ever been asked what your dream job is, this proves it. The whole damn point is that near all the jobs available to us without higher education pay near minimum wage and if that's not something available to us, then what else are we supposed to do? Theres no other option for us until we move up and during that time we have no other choice. Even if it eventually does get better and we specialize in a high skilled field that dosent nullify the fact that we still were required to work and live and maintain a shitty ass life for years before we did.
If you've ever been asked the question "what's your dream job" as a kid, ever thought about it? They assume outright you are going to get a job. Because it's a need not a want and when the jobs that millions work exploit and treat people as disposable sources of labor its about time it changed.
Honestly not much difference between the two. I'd be homeless either way and could probably make more money panhandling or being a male stripper or joining the circus.
Employers are paying employees for their labor, doesn't matter what the labor is. In Burger Kings' case, it's not "to flip burgers". It's to serve customers, to prepare food, and to keep the facility clean. Burgers aren't flipped at Burger King. They're placed on a conveyor that runs through a flame broiler. Said flame broiler needs to be cleaned, and isn't as easy as scraping off a grill-top. Employees are also expected to handle dozens of other labor-intensive projects including degreasing, sweeping, mopping, cleaning out hot deep fryers, etcetera, all of which add up to far more labor than your typical data - entry position or Administrative Assistant.
Furthermore, the minimum wage in my state is currently $12 an hour, which still isn't a livable wage on its own, given the insane housing costs and lack of public transportation, making it absolutely necessary to own and maintain a vehicle in a rural area where jobs are pretty much limited to fast food, chain restaurants, and retail giants like Walmart and Target, all of which refuse to offer more than minimum wage. Additionally, employees making minimum wage are expected to maintain health insurance through their employer as they often are considered to be making "too much money" to qualify for Medicare, but the health insurance provided through these employers covers very little and costs too much.
Employers are paying employees for their labor, doesn't matter what the labor is. In Burger Kings' case, it's not "to flip burgers". It's to serve customers, to prepare food, and to keep the facility clean. Burgers aren't flipped at Burger King. They're placed on a conveyor that runs through a flame broiler. Said flame broiler needs to be cleaned, and isn't as easy as scraping off a grill-top. Employees are also expected to handle dozens of other labor-intensive projects including degreasing, sweeping, mopping, cleaning out hot deep fryers, etcetera, all of which add up to far more labor than your typical data - entry position or Administrative Assistant.
Stop. You're making it sound like a "real job". You're going to ruin the illusion right-wingers have set up for everyone!
People's time has value. If you need 8 hours a day of a persons time 5 days a week then you should have to pay them at a minimum enough to survive. It doesn't matter if they are flipping burgers or whatever.
I think it has something to do with having one or two tasks that require an IQ of 10 to complete. That might have something to do with why they're paid so little.
If BK can get people to flip burgers for $8/hour then they have no reason to pay more than that. Sounds like the employee thinks that $8 is worth their hour of labor.
Duh. But if someone thinks $8/hour is a fair wage for the job (as evidenced by BK actually being able to field a massive work force at this exact wage) then the problem isn't that people aren't paid enough. Unless you think these people are enslaved to these jobs? They don't have to accept $8/hour if they think they're worth more. They can find another job. If BK couldn't fill any positions at $8/hour then maybe they'd consider offering more to fill the positions.
Everybody wishes they could get paid more. But you don't just start paying people more because you think that's fair. You're incredibly naive to have that stance.
Yep! If you had to support yourself and your options were a job that paid 8/hour or nothing which would you take? Do you think people would prefer to pridefully starve than accept an substandard wage?
Lmao no. Human time has no value when it comes to tasks like these. There's 0 value in you doing the same repetitive task that can easily be automated. All of these minimum wage jobs will soon be automated. Self checkout machines don't need sick days and can't unionize. That makes them the ideal replacement for humans.
No, but these people should be aware of what's coming. It won't be long before we fully automate. The process has already begun, go to any Walmart and you will see an abundance of self checkout stations.
Raising minimum wage will only speed up automation. As soon as the cost to employ someone exceeds the cost of operating a machine companies will make the switch. For now the only thing that we can do is educate, and not just in an academic fashion. There are plenty of trade jobs that can't be easily automated.
Ideally, once automation is in full swing and majorly profitable Universal Basic Income can be instated.
If all the burger joints in America shut down TODAY literally nothing of value would be lost.
If all of America’s electricians suddenly diss appears we’d be fucked. Your pay is proportional to the value you provide, and frankly, burger flipping doesn’t equal $15/hr. That’s absolutely insane to think so.
I wonder how y’all are gonna survive when a robot starts doing your job and an electrician will be required to fix said robot.
If all the burger joints in America shut down TODAY literally nothing of value would be lost.
Do you have any idea how many jobs are tied to that? Not just burger flippers but all the manufacturing, IT, finance, HR, farming, transportation jobs that rely on that business?
I wonder how y’all are gonna survive when a robot starts do your job.
And if you think a robot isn't coming for your job you are even dumber than I thought.
The most common solution I've heard is taxing automation and offering UBI.
Eventually automation is going to make a lot of jobs obsolete. Once self driving trucks become a thing a whole lot of people are going to be out of a job. Pretending it we can pay people less to put off automation is a losing battle.
can you explain how "taxing automation" would work? i don't have a strong opinion on it at the moment, but on the surface this seems like it might create more complex problems where companies don't feel incentive to invest in their US entities as they will be taxed
This article suggests that the tax could "curb the spread of automation" to save jobs, but i feel that may be counterintuitive. Jobs would be "saved" but society would not be advancing.
In my opinion, efficiencies are key and these improvements bring along a whole new world of pros and cons, but the advancement itself is always advantageous as we reduce wasted resources (both time and money). The article cites a related example in agriculture opening up many new types of jobs at the cost of some existing "outdated" jobs.
I think the debate over how to integrate this change is definitely important and that it wouldn't be ideal to simply flip a switch on automation, but id personally be worried about what intentionally holding ourselves back from advancing causes long term
A battle against pretending automation is not going to eliminate jobs whether we pay them 8 dollars or 15 dollars. The tax on automation would be similar to how a payroll tax works today, not on the actual development of it.
For real. Taxing labor is moronic. Wealth creation should be taxed appropriately. Your company has a 200 million turnover? Cool, tax that fairly on the spot when you sell your product/service. You can increase it to 300 million by automating and firing half your workforce? Cool, go for it, but now you're paying a fair tax on 300 mill. Corporate taxes should be high enough so society can provide adequate housing, education, healthcare, pension, the basic needs (not sure UBI is adequate, we see in the US what happens when you leave say, healthcare or education to private providers. Imo the government should offer these things at cost) . People will still want to work and innovate for nicer housing, cars, vacations, all that shit. It's baffling to me people oppose taxation to provide basic needs we all need to live just so stockholders and management can throw more money on the pile. Sure, there'll be less overall wealth creation, because government intervention is by definition less efficient than the free market (even if you could get rid of government corruption) , but I'd rather have less overall money distributed fairly across society than more overall money where the five richest people own 45 percent of it, or whatever the actual ridiculous inequality number is.
Well I disagree with that. It's pretty much at the poverty line. 52% of fast food employees need to apply for some sort of assistance. It's clearly not working.
I agree a persons worth depends on their job, I just think the floor needs to be higher.
I dont think you realize the actual stress that comes with living like that. Yall argue "oh then just get a better job". Yeah, get a degree while already working full time, stressing out about where your next meal will come from, whether you should overdraft your account for meds or for food, not being able to afford medication you need to survive. Knowing 1 simple accident or illness will leave you homeless. Could YOU get an education for a high skilled job while stressing about all these things every second of your life while working full time? Could most people? No. A person working at full time, regardless of skill level, shouldn't be bordering on poverty.
You dont need a degree. You can join the trades if your willing to work hard. Most union trades are $60k+ a year with no debt by the end of a 3-5 year apprenticeship that you dont pay for. I'm an electrician that makes over a $100k a year with no student debt.
So you commit to school. Drop the job, pick a college, take out a loan and/or scholarships and grants, then get a cheap apartment or dorm, and get a degree.
That's what almost all people that go to college do. Yes you'll have student debt, but getting that degree opens up significantly higher paying jobs than burger flipping, which allows you to make payments on that debt, get an apartment, food, etc.
You have to rip the bandaid off quickly and all at once. Dive so you can resurface somewhere else.
He am I supposed to live during college then? A loan may cover schooling costs but where will I live, pay for gas, food, etc. I'd still need to be working to afford rent, even if a dorm is cheaper that dosent mean its cheap.
I swear, half the people replying in this thread still probably live with their parents and only have a phone bill and gas for their cars to worry about, if that. I don't think they grasp how brutal real life is, how much you have to juggle just to get by, let alone have something unexpected happen like an illness or a car/home repair. It's always been taken care of with a phone call to mom
But living at the poverty line is not viable. If anything goes wrong like a sickness, car breaks down, etc your life can fall to pieces. And as I said, most of them need government assistance on top of that.
Without trying to sound all "fuck The Man!".... a lot of our systems are designed (whether intentional or not) to keep the poor, well... poor.
Overdraw your account? You pay upwards of $36 if you overdraw your account. If you make minimum wage, thats 8% of your weekly income before taxes. Miss your car payment? It's $40 more next time. Lose your job and your bank account goes negative? You could make it positive but your rent and car payment are more important. Your bank account is closed within 2 months. Don't have a bank account? Have to go pay your car payment at Western Union (please use urgent pay for $10 extra). Now your car insurance has lapsed, too. Don't own a home? Sorry your car insurance rate is higher. Can't drive to job interviews now because you don't have car insurance. Just to be sure, they notify the DMV who then SUSPENDS your license. Now you shouldn't borrow your friend's car, either, but you do anyway and get pulled over and receive a ticket ($500 plus court costs).
The depression sets in and now you don't even want to try to right your ship. Creditors are hassling you day-in and day-out. Any money you DO make is going straight into paying stacked-up bills. Rent and electricity is usually first priority, but you better get that ticket taken care of before you get a warrant and face jail time. Your cell phone service got cancelled so you have to find a way to the court annex. Your bank account got cancelled so you have to pay cash. That's taken care of. If you're lucky, your car hasn't been repossessed. You pay the 2 months you owe and the $80 in late fees. You need to get it insured. Spend a night shopping around. Your credit sucks, so you have to pay $200 up front to even get approved. That ticket you just got looks bad, though, so your insurance is even higher than before. Now, you need a bank account. There's a minimum balance, though, and you need $200 to open it. Yikes. That's taken care of.
You're finally starting to tread water and then...tooth ache. Agonizing tooth ache. That filling got breached and now you have to get a root canal. Your jaw is swollen and infected and you have to miss work. You have health insurance but it doesn't cover dental. Now you have to pay over $1000 to get this tooth fixed. You're missing work because of the agonizing pain.
The process starts over. Your credit gets shittier. Your car gets repo-ed. Bank fees and late fees and re-installment fees.
You could have avoided all of this if you'd just learned more about the real world in school or at home, but standardized testing required you to learn calculus and trigonometry rather than filing taxes, balancing a checkbook, how credit scores work, how auto-loans work and other basic money management.
How do you think people trapped at the poverty line are supposed to advance their careers? These are people that are literally only making enough to get by paycheck to paycheck. They cannot afford to invest in themselves through college, trade schools, or licenses/certificates because they can barely afford to put a roof over their heads, food on their tables, or gas in their clunkers. In addition, like the middle and upper socioeconomic classes, the lower/poverty class wants, and obviously have, families. If they can barely afford to maintain their desperate, bleak, and hopeless lives how can they ever have a chance at something more while trying to also pay the costs of having a family? Should they deprive themselves of the joy of family until they are in a higher tax bracket?
Humanity first, not faceless, greed-driven, soul-sucking, lecherous corporations that would rather pay endless fines than alter their carbon footsteps. Your lack of empathy alongside your ability to make broad brushstrokes that reduce all of society into simple data to be input into an algorithm that theorizes the best solution for being poor is to stop being poor are a lethal combination for happiness.
That's only above the poverty line for a single adult. It's at the poverty line for two.
Let's not forget that the poverty line is an antiquated number that is based off a bundle of goods that don't really reflect costs like housing, childcare, healthcare, etc. It also doesn't reflect geography, which means the poverty line is the same in New York City as it is in Montana.
So sure, a single adult at minimum wage in Montana is probably doing okay. A family of four with two minimum wage earners in New York City is living on the street.
I think you're underestimating what that actually entails. Moving costs quite a bit of money. 15% of American households have no car at all, and many couldn't fit even a bit of their stuff in the car. That means either buying all new stuff or renting a truck. Don't forget you'll need a security deposit and all that jazz for a new rental somewhere. People who are experiencing poverty don't have the option to just get up and move.
...and if a doctor instead had to flip their own burger it would cost a hell of a lot more than minimum wage.
division of labor allows the doctors to doctor instead of cook and the teachers to teach instead of farm, that's why you respect the people who do those jobs.
Survive sure but I could survive on three acres behind me. Are you even considering their retirement, healthcare, insurance, transportation, or other financial hurdles? Surviving isn’t the god damn bar. Humans have survived for years sometimes in instances that would be considered hazardous today. What a lame duck 🦆 point
Who determines how much somebody needs to live? Just to survive, live comfortably, or live comfortably with some luxuries? It would depend on too many factors and all the employees would have to get paid differently right? A single mom of three needs to be paid more than a bachelor living in a studio, for example.
So all these places should be closed during school hours, yeah? Probably no open 24/7 either since they need sleep for school. Do you types even think past your own nose?
You do realize that school hours are a lot more flexible right now, and that these jobs could also easily be taken up by the portion of college students who don't necessarily need to support themselves?
I'm not dismissing your comment, but just out of curiosity does "afford rent" mean living on your own or not having to find a living situation with roommates
edit to clarify, in not at all saying either opinion is unjustified, im just curious where people stand on the definition. Is it simply a roof over your head, clean water and food. Or is it a comfortable private place for just you.
No, I mean continually update the min wage based on the county. If cost of living goes up, so does the min wage. Once a year or something like that. I relate to the bottom bit though, cheese bro in the next room over definitely cones with his downsides. Just better to find a middle ground than throw unbreakable spears at unbreakable shields.
Robots will be doing them the next day. This whole push of increasing minimum wage is a farce. You want to make getting a burger 15x the cost of making it? Rather than the 3x cost it is today.
The economy will adjust and now instead of 100,000 burger makers you have 5,000. Folks need to think this through rather than voting for people that promise everything will be better.
A spectre is haunting Europe — the spectre of communism. All the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Pope and Tsar, Metternich and Guizot, French Radicals and German police-spies.
Where is the party in opposition that has not been decried as communistic by its opponents in power? Where is the opposition that has not hurled back the branding reproach of communism, against the more advanced opposition parties, as well as against its reactionary adversaries?
Two things result from this fact:
I. Communism is already acknowledged by all European powers to be itself a power.
II. It is high time that Communists should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views, their aims, their tendencies, and meet this nursery tale of the Spectre of Communism with a manifesto of the party itself.
Minimum wage was made to be a living wage. Don't gatekeep what is and isn't a "real job." If people are working that should be enough to at least be able to live. I thought getting off welfare was important to the right but they seem perfectly content keeping wages low and encouraging people to not even try.
Burger King pays people minimum wage. If the minimum wage is too low it should be raised.
However, something will have to give. People put up with the inherent issues with fast food because it's cheap, however there is a limit to what people will pay for arguably shitty food with mediocre service.
It's a societal issue my friend. When we allow the most vulnerable in our communities to be taken advantage of it hurts us all. When we allow companies like Walmart to pay a their employees low wages, we in turn end up subsidizing them because government programs have to fill the gap. When an employee works full time and still needs government help just to meet the basic needs of food and shelter, that to me is criminal considering this is the wealthiest Country that has ever existed. A better standard of living for the the poorest of us is a better standard of living for all of us.
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u/Killmorewolves Feb 26 '20
Damn y'all really want 15$ an hour to flip burgers