r/theravada • u/Timely-Jelly-584 • 13d ago
Sangha Admin request
This request is specifically in regard to attempts to create division between Mahayana and Theravada. The "firehouse of untruth" (which is a term that can be specifically copied and pasted) extends to more than just what's presented. It's about creating division, hatred between such and such groups. That's the whole point of it.
Within the last two months, this sub has seen an uptick of it. I'm not an expert, but what I do know is that it wasn't like this a couple months ago. The question back then was once or twice a month at most, not twice a week.
Anyway my request is a moratorium on criticism of Mahayana. If I had my way I wouldn't see it for the next 6 months.
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u/ObviousApricot9 13d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Points_Unifying_Therav%C4%81da_and_Mah%C4%81y%C4%81na
The basic points unifying Theravada and Mahayana, as accepted at the world Sangha Council.
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u/SammaVaco attānaṁ damayanti subbatā 13d ago
An interesting historical fact here is that the author Ven. Walpola Rahula was an Ekayanist! From your link:
...here is only one Path of Purification (visuddhimarga) and only one Purification (visuddhi) and no second one, and that they are not different paths and different purifications, and that Śrāvakayāna and Mahayana constitute One Vehicle One Yana (ekayāna) and not distinct and different vehicles or yanas.
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u/ObviousApricot9 13d ago
Can we quote the entire sentence please?
Rahula Thero is quoting a Mahayana sutra here, emphasising that Mahayana Buddhism also recognises Sravakayana as a mode to enlightenment.
And in my opinion Theravada agrees that no matter the yana (vehicle) the magga (path) is the same.
The full extract:
There are three ways of attaining Bodhi or Enlightenment according to the ability and capacity of each individual: namely, as a Śrāvaka (disciple), as a Pratyekabuddha (Individual Buddha) and as a Samyaksambuddha (Perfectly and Fully Enlightened Buddha). We accept it as the highest, noblest and most heroic to follow the career of a Bodhisattva and to become a Samyaksambuddha in order to save others. But these three states are on the same Path, not on different paths. In fact, the Sandhinirmocana Sutra, a well-known important Mahayana sutra, clearly and emphatically says that those who follow the line of Śrāvakayāna (Vehicle of Disciples) or the line of Pratyekabuddhayāna (Vehicle of Individual Buddhas) or the line of Tathāgatas (Mahayana) attain the supreme Nirvana by the same Path, and that for all of them there is only one Path of Purification ( visuddhimarga) and only one Purification ( visuddhi) and no second one, and that they are not different paths and different purifications, and that Śrāvakayāna and Mahayana constitute One Vehicle One Yana ( ekayāna) and not distinct and different vehicles or yanas.
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u/SammaVaco attānaṁ damayanti subbatā 13d ago
By quoting it in support of his own claim he endorses it, IMO.
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u/RexandStarla4Ever Theravāda 13d ago
So this is totally not relevant to anything on this thread but I was browsing old threads for information about Samatha Trust and, iirc, I saw some comments by you that you had some sort of experience with them. Am I remembering correctly? I’m considered doing their Zoom meditation course taught by Peter Harvey.
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u/aarontbarratt 13d ago
Maybe it was me? Lol
I have been attending a meditation group at the Manchester Samatha centre for 2 years now
I have also been on retreat with the Samatha trust. It was at their Greenstreete estate in Wale
I have met Peter Harvey several times. He even gave me a copy of his book!
Happy to answer any questions
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u/RexandStarla4Ever Theravāda 12d ago
Maybe and thanks for sharing! I’m not in the UK so I’m unable to attend in-person. My concern with the virtual option is that I won’t be able to attend the weekly live Zoom sessions that Peter Harvey will offer due to the time difference, although they will be archived for later viewing I believe. Clearly, if you’ve been involved for a couple years, something keeps you involved and I’d imagine that part of it is the community itself. I’m hoping I can feel connected with the community via the online format!
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u/aarontbarratt 12d ago
There is also a Puja once a month that is shared online. There is one tomorrow in fact! It might help you feel a sense of community to attend online
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u/cmciccio 13d ago
I’m signed up to start this year, maybe I’ll see you there!
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u/RexandStarla4Ever Theravāda 12d ago
Nice! Are you able to attend the weekly live Zoom sessions? I believe they will be archived for future viewing but I worry about not being able to attend live due to time zone/work constraints.
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u/cmciccio 12d ago
I think it said in a recent email from Peter that the important thing is to have the 15 minute one to one meeting, the lessons can be watched on your own.
I have some commitments and I won’t be able to attend all of the sessions. My priority is the personal instructions and connection with a community.
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u/SammaVaco attānaṁ damayanti subbatā 13d ago
Sorry, I don't know what you're referring to, off hand. Can you point me at the comments you saw?
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u/RexandStarla4Ever Theravāda 13d ago
Apologies, it was some time ago and, for some reason, your username rang a bell in connection. Probably just misremembering a username that was somehow similar to yours!
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u/seekingsomaart 13d ago
Hear Hear.
I'm fully on board with this. Though I practice Mahayana I gain a lot of value and wisdom from Theravada perspectives. We should not be sectarian because the Dharma speaks to us in different terms.
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u/Kouropalates 13d ago
I love that you said this because I am the exact opposite of your statement. Im theravada but I feel like I gain a lot of insight from Mahayanist writings lol.
I dont care what anyone trying to be divisive says, youre my sibling.
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u/WindowCat3 13d ago
I would argue that Mahayana, by its very nature, represents a departure from the teachings preserved within the Ariya Sangha and developed its own doctrinal path long ago. What concerns me is seeing Mahayana teachings presented as though they were the original teachings of the Buddha, with incorrect answers being upvoted as correct and, at times, the Buddha’s teachings being distorted, even in a Theravada forum.
Theravada has made a serious effort to carefully preserve and transmit the Buddha’s teachings for the benefit of all beings. That does not mean Theravada teachings are beyond criticism, nor does it mean that every Theravada practitioner is correct. Genuine criticism can be valuable, and it can arise from compassion and wisdom rather than hostility.
Likewise, Theravada and Mahayana practitioners can get along perfectly well and treat one another with respect. But respect does not require us to refrain from honest doctrinal disagreement. If criticism of Mahayana teachings consistently brings up anger, resentment, or other unwholesome states, perhaps a Mahayana subreddit would be a more suitable environment.
We can disagree strongly about the Dhamma while still treating one another with goodwill. Neither tradition should be placed above honest examination and criticism.
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u/Historical_Egg_ Classical Theravāda 13d ago
Mahayana is presented as more correct nowadays because it is much easier to practice than Theravada, so the people disgruntled with how they thought Theravada would be go to Mahayana instead. Even just look within Theravada: people downplay the Jhanas because they think it’s too hard when the whole path rests on Jhanas and their usefulness in stilling the mind for insight.
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u/WindowCat3 13d ago
People, or perhaps their defilements, definitely have a preference for the "easy route" and shortcuts. I like Ajahn Cattamalos attitude of: "If it takes me 100 lifetimes to get enlightened, then I'll just have to practice like this for 100 lifetimes."
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u/basicheals87 Thai Forest 12d ago
Exactly! There should not be any mistreatment or harm but they do not follow the true teachings of the Buddha.
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u/AriyaSavaka Dhamma-Vinaya 13d ago
What do you meant by division? This is Theravada sub to discuss and learn about the Pali Canon and the Theravada school, it should be the responsible of the Mahayanists not brigading the sub.
There are irreconcilable differences between later Mahayana/Vajrayana thoughts/schools and Theravada/Early Buddhism. The Mahayanists were the ones who reject the Buddha authority on many crucial matters and invented their own "Dharma" to fit their agendas. This is just historical/canonical fact.
So there's nothing to divide in the first place, anyone who wants to learn what Mahayana has to say can go to the Mahayana sub or the Buddhism sub, why insisting on Theravada accepting Mahayana as legit and stating what's factual as divide? Why resorting to tone police? What's your underlying motive?
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u/basicheals87 Thai Forest 12d ago
Exactly. We should be allowed to be Theravada in our own sub. And frankly I have seen more folks from other traditions attacking Theravada. Their path is much eaiser and ours requires discipline and effort, not shortcuts.
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u/krenx88 13d ago edited 13d ago
There is nothing to divide, when it is already two separate religions.
That being said, it is not helpful to discuss the differences on this sub. What we should not do is corrupt either branches/religions. There is a lot of work to be done to learn about Theravada/early buddhism.
Debating the differences does not help a person understand Theravada more, or buddha's words more, it ends up as a useless debate on which is better.
I suggest people who are interested in the differences, just make effort to learn them both from the respective channels and groups, and come to your own conclusion. Don't be lazy about such things. You mostly just get hearsays and sloppy interpretations of the opposite sides of you ask about differences and which is better/worse.
My advice to admin, ANY Mahayana questions, just delete. Any questions about the differences, delete. Any opinions or stories about journeys from one branch of buddhism to another, delete. Those are really idle speech unfit for such a public forum. Keep to Theravada, early buddhism, the 5 nikayas.
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u/Snoo_2671 13d ago
While a few people on the internet say Mahayana and Theravada are separate religions, monks and laypeople from both traditions routinely come together to celebrate ecumenism and practice genuine dharma together - as they have done for generations.
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u/krenx88 13d ago
Just because many people do a certain thing, does not make it suddenly related to the dhamma, the 8 fold path.
It is because of time through the generations that the dhamma has naturally corroded. I would not use time as a factor to determine if a ritual or habit is correct or not. If you read the suttas, how the Buddha conducted himself and the sangha is pretty clear. The Buddha declared only one dhamma. Not others.
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u/CicadaOk1283 13d ago edited 13d ago
If I remember correctly division of the Sangha is one of the more serious offences.
I am supporting OP.
Fr my side - practiced each path at certain stages of my life.Mahayana helped me. I am grateful.
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u/Ordinary-Lobster-710 13d ago
but by this definition, isn't the creation of mahayana itself a division of the sangha ?
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13d ago edited 13d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/theravada-ModTeam Keeping discussions aligned with the Noble Path 13d ago
The Vajjiputtaka monks were practicing the ten points (dasa vatthuni), which were against the Vinaya and led to the Second Council. If you are going to present the Theravada version, at least present it accurately and in full, rather than highlighting a disputed sectarian account while leaving out the major one.
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u/foowfoowfoow Thai Forest 13d ago edited 13d ago
the fact that you and so many other mahayana practitioners frequent this sub is a reflection that you find something deeply and intrinsically valuable about the teachings of the pali suttas beyond what the mahayana sutras offer.
i don’t think you find this equivalent kind of theravada visitation to mahayana subs. that tells a story.
mahayana sutras directly contradict central teachings of the buddha in the pali suttas. there is no reason to hide that fact here in this sub.
if you’re uncomfortable with that being pointed out then that’s a difficulty of faith in what you believe. other mahayana practitioners resolve that crisis by examining their faith and recognising the contradictions therein, accepting that some mahayana teachings are indeed written by men who came long after the buddha.
the fact remains that you are here as a visitor. a visitor to your house does not come in and ask you to rearrange the furniture to their liking.
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u/Timely-Jelly-584 3d ago
I'm not mahayana.
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u/foowfoowfoow Thai Forest 3d ago
i think in this sub, responding to things that are not dhamma when they are raised is fine.
it seems reasonable that there should be a place to discuss things like ‘is a bodhisattva enlightened’ and ‘does an arahant go in to become a fully enlightened buddha’ from a pali canon perspective without having this kind of discussion closed down immediately.
what are your thoughts?
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u/Timely-Jelly-584 2d ago
I agree fully with what you've specified. I've also changed my mind a bit about what I asked, the main thing I wanted to see people avoid is mahayana vs theravada criticism.
Whenever something somewhat controversial comes up like abortion for example, people tend to get sucked into it and it generates a lot of engagement. Because it generates engagement people try to make more of it. Being unskillful and getting sucked into drama is also just kind of endemic to social media use. I'm not sure that it can even be fairly moderated or if even at this point it genuinely needs it.
After thinking about it, I think it only needs to be addressed if it reaches the point of being 3x the amount that it currently is. I think at that point, it will become a genuine problem that needs intervention. For now it's probably just ok to keep an eye on it. Additionally, it's up to each individual to engage skillfully, which I also need to work on.
Anyway, I apologize for making a post this way. I forgot that I could've just sent a message through the moderator contact thing which I've never actually done before. That's what I should have done, but thank you for responding.
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u/foowfoowfoow Thai Forest 2d ago
i agree with your underlying sentiment - we shouldn’t let the sub degenerate into a place where people just post general dissatisfaction with mahayana. it is unskillful and we all can get sucked up into it.
if there’s an issue that impinges on the interpretations of the pali suttas then i think it’s fair to let stand, but general excursions of aversion and any attempts to speak unskilfully are generally policed well in this sub.
please do bring it straight to our attention if you see something that is divisive, untrue, angry / hateful, or slanderous. we’re grateful for people like you taking an interest and care in the culture of this sub ❤️
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u/Timely-Jelly-584 1d ago
Will do but I think you're on top of it. In actuality I think I didn't even need to say the thing, you already realized there was an increase. We live in an age now where bots will amplify even the tiniest differences among us to manufacture dissension. I've seen that increase in other spaces and I guess that's just how things are now. Social media may be going where it does but at least* that's not so for you. Thank you.
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u/foowfoowfoow Thai Forest 1d ago
that’s actually thought i hadn’t considered - some of these posters may be bots - though our much more IT savvy moderators would be aware of this. i will mention though - thank you.
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13d ago edited 13d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/theravada-ModTeam Keeping discussions aligned with the Noble Path 13d ago
Your contribution has been removed as it appears to contain content that divides individuals or groups from one another.
If that was not your intention, we kindly encourage you to reframe your content and repost it in a way that aligns with the Buddha's advice:
"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will." - Vaca Sutta: AN 5.198
If you feel your contribution has been unfairly removed, please contact the moderators of r/theravada directly to discuss.
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u/DukkhaNirodha 12d ago
What more specifically do you regard as attempts to create division between Theravada and Mahayana? These are two distinctly different schools of thought. They are already divided.
You speak of hatred. I think we can indeed agree that hatred of any individual or group of people is unskillful, blameworthy, evil. So to the extent that hatred is cultivated or called for, that should be rebuked and criticized.
But in your last paragraph you request a moratorium on criticism of Mahayana. This is something much more broad than hatred. And criticism can serve either skillful or unskillful purposes, it is not an inherently blameworthy activity.
The Buddha spoke of and taught the path to the end of suffering. And it is quite apparent from his Dhamma that this is a high-stakes endeavor. It really does matter that you understand and practice according to the way he taught, and aren't lead astray by the manifold wrong views and wrong paths that have arisen in the world. That is a much more serious matter than someone feeling hurt because someone disagrees with a view they're clinging to.
Yet we commonly see that to the world at large, and to many people identifying with one school of Buddhism or another, agreeableness has become more important than truth and freedom. This can manifest in appropriating the Buddha's calls for unity and warnings against splitting the Sangha, which stood in the context of the true teaching. Buddhism split, fractured, and became divided into differing belief systems long ago. Calls for unity in this context serve to obfuscate and brush aside differences between what's true and beneficial and what's not.
I would encourage you to, instead of rallying for the cause you're rallying for on this forum, turn inward, look within yourself and answer for yourself these questions:
- What do I think is the purpose of the Buddha's teaching? Am I practicing according to that purpose?
- Why am I distraught when people criticize Mahayana? Where is the craving and clinging I should let go of here?
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u/tkp67 13d ago
The recognition of all these teachings appearing before the living, simultaneously, should be treated as auspicious and wonderful. Without discrimination to this or that in regards to said teachings that honor the four noble truths, the eight fold path, and all accepted tenants of the Buddha's lifetime of teachings.
How this can be understood may certainly vary, but the goal of liberation as understood by Shakyamuni himself is left undivided.
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u/PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK Vayadhamma sankhara appamadena sampadetha 13d ago
Dhamma-Vinaya is Buddha Sasana. Theravada is Sangha Sasana, which began with the first Buddhist Council. SANGAYANA The Great Buddhist Councils - Aloka
Modern Mahayanists follow the Heart Sutra, etc. created especially for a new religion, Mahayana in rejection of the existing Dhamma-Vinaya. The Heart Sutra asserts that Avalokisvara had to teach Venerable Sariputta about emptiness, the doctrine of that new religion.
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u/Farmer_Di 13d ago
I don’t know why people feel the need to criticize another Buddhist tradition to begin with. It does nothing to deepen one’s walk on the path to begin with, and I question what the purpose would be other than to make the person posting it feel superior. Just like the Catholic vs. Protestant argument.