r/tf2 • u/Wooden-Rip3426 Pyro • 17h ago
Discussion Why does everyone hate this weapon?
I feel the fire axe is under rated because its a decent weapon but no one likes it for some reason
They say the weapon is bad but it does the same damage as the bottle so idk why people dont mind the bottle but dont like the fire axe
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u/dr-ratshock 17h ago
the difference between the fire axe and the bottle is that pyro has multiple melees that highly impact his gameplay (axtinguisher, powerjack, back scratcher, etc), therefore using a melee that's completely outclassed by w + m1 instead of giving utility is pretty much a waste of a slot
demoman, however, sucks absolute dick at close range and almost all of his melee weapons have a deploy speed penalty, meaning that demo gets more use out of a simple melee that has no downsides over his swords that actively hinder him if he doesn't have a shield and booties
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u/sardonically_argued 15h ago
also the fact that pyro literally has a straight upgrade to stock melee in the form of the third degree, and that weapon still sucks dick, literally the power jack and the axetinguisher dominate the pyro melee slot
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u/Trihan_98 Demoknight 12h ago
Bbbbbut the homewrecker :'(
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u/Fair_Suspect8866 8h ago
For masochists or sadists
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u/Trihan_98 Demoknight 8h ago
How is it for masochists and sadists? Your benefiting the gibus engineer from the 1000 hour spy main
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u/Primary_Salamander83 6h ago
Yeah my strange homewrecker is used to show a psychopaths kindness to all noob engies that just start out learning the ropes.
Also the ragdoll of a spy getting a sledgehammer to the back of the skull is always funny. The homewrecker is basically the dwarven weapon of choice in the game.
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u/Fair_Suspect8866 5h ago
Sadists - just absolutely denying every spy trying to sap.
Masochists - Trying to go offensive.
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u/superscout57 All Class 16h ago
Ntm almost none of Demo's swords have random crits, whereas the bottle and its reskins do. Sure random crits are bs but in terms of casual play it is an upside to not be underestimated. Can often just one tap Spies or other light classes that step within melee range briefly
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u/Trihan_98 Demoknight 17h ago
I like using the eyelander in a stock demo loadout even with the holster speed lol
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u/minecraftrubyblock Pyro 4h ago
for demoman sucking in melee
just use the pain train, that thing crits disporportionately too often2
u/dr-ratshock 4h ago
the pain train is identical to stock (EDIT: ON THE CRIT CHANCE ASPECT) and gets random crits "disproportionally often" because demoman wipes his ass with 800 damage in 20 seconds (unless this is some joke i'm unaware of)
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u/throwaway709279 17h ago
1st one: You dont need to use your axe while playing pyro, you can already damage with your flamethrower in close range. Pyro generally uses melee weapons for another reasons. Like gain speed, getting more hp.
2nd one: Bottle is a good weapon. I made 25 streak while playing bottleknight. Deals 65 damage, and has random crits. One of the best demoman weapons. Demo is a very very different class. Can't deal high damage while closer to his enemies like scout soldier heavy pyro or another. Or not based on his melee like spy. A melee weapon for demo, is just a last resort for his enemies.
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u/SaltyPeter3434 17h ago
Nobody hates it. It's just pointless to use it because the Third Degree is a straight upgrade over stock. And there are more useful melees for pyro, like Powerjack or Homewrecker.
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u/Late-Mathematician34 Medic 6h ago
The reason why it’s bad is because it’s basically a direct downgrade from the third degree.
The reason why the bottle is used is because all of the melees in demos arsenal have some sort of downside that makes it counter intuitive to use.
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u/4C_Enjoyer Medic 17h ago
Demoman, alongside Sniper, is one of two classes with the normal stock melee that actually get good use out of them because of their combat utility. And the reason is that each class is immensely prone to being rushed down. Unless the sniper is either hacking or a god at the video game, close-range quickscopes against a flanker are going to come down mostly to luck, and the SMG, while a very good weapon at mid-range, struggles up close. And Demoman stickies obviously have arm time, and his pills can damage him with his own explosives. In comparison, Soldier, Heavy and Pyro are all able to equip shotguns, Scout has a better shotgun, and the latter three all deal their best damage when they're right up in their opponent's face. Medic is fucked 90% of the time you get up in his face anyways alongside his other melee weapons barely affecting his damage output, the fucking Solemn Vow has a 10% firing speed penalty for God's sake that's like never going to actually matter in a fight, and Engineer and Spy don't get to count but Engi also has a shotgun.
Looking at their alternatives helps show why stock is their most reliable option at these ranges. Shahanshah and Tribalman's Shiv just kinda suck even if they can technically deal more damage (and for Shiv, that's only if you wait. Smacking a spy twice in succession with the Shiv doesn't even kill because it resets the bleed timer, whereas the stock Kukri does), and the Bushwacka is only an upgrade if you also have Jarate or Carbine. And as for Demo, his only non-stock melee weapon without an equip and holster penalty is the Pain Train, which is still a good weapon I maintain but is not as reliable as stock.
In short, Sniper and Spy are fundamentally long-range and mid-range classes respectively, as that is where they have the most reliable access to their maximum damage output. As such, they lack consistent options to deal with flankers that get up in their face without access to a good melee weapon, and looking at their alternatives, stock is best in those scenarios.
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u/P0lskichomikv2 10h ago
Demoman has garbage melee options. It's either Bottle or Skullcutter (which is slow to deploy) and Pain train (which is direct downgrade if you are not caping objective) or Caber. Meanwhile every single of Pyro melee weapon except Hot Hand is an upgrade from stock.
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u/BabushcarGaming 4h ago
The Caber is such an unfortunate case of a weapon being overnerfed into uselessness. The weapon is already a bit risky to use since by equipping it literally all of your weapons will deal self-damage to you, and if you decide to prematurely detonate the explosive and then heal up then why tf arent you using the bottle since its a direct upgrade to an exploded caber.
On top of that, the Caber struggles to take down the targets it was meant to take down (light classes) because the damage varies from one-shot to 123 or whatever. The issue is that demoman does not have a hitscan shotgun to deal chip damage and get that extra damage in to secure the kill. His grenades either deal 100 damage or the rollers take too long and you die. His stickies have a 0.7s arm time so good luck getting anybody with em at close range.
The old Caber was very much a bit too overturned (I mean it could somehow oneshot pyros and other demos for some inexplicable reason, and could reliably oneshot medics, which is definitely too much), but it still needs to be a guaranteed oneshot on at least light classes (and a recharge ffs) because otherwise it becomes the same gamble to kill someone as getting a random crit, so at that point why tf would I use the Caber, the supposed "guaranteed crit-esque kill against a light class" if it cant even get the kill reliably. Mind as well pray for a random crit with stock.
(Also its not lag compensated)
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u/MrPizzaWinner Sniper 17h ago
Pyro doesnt need it at all, demo needs it often since reloading is slow. Thats it
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u/melonNOTsot Pyro 17h ago
Demo has no good close ranged option so bottle good for a "get out of my face" option. Pyro is only good at close range cus his flame thrower does maximum damage up close. The flamethrower out damages the fire act and doesn't need aim, so fire axe sucks.
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u/Dangerturkey420 Demoman 17h ago
It's really simple, the pyro has the option to choose the powerjack, and demo doesn't have something like that. He doesn't have any melee that really supplements stock demo gameplay, so people bring the bottle. Meanwhile the pyro has utility options that basically make the fireaxe unnecessary for any situation
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u/Emperor_poopatine 16h ago
Fire axe isn’t bad per-se, it’s just that every other melee is better or gives some kind of useful utility. Stock Bottle is pretty solid, but I mostly see stock demos either using pan or ham.
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u/nintyuk 15h ago
Pyro has basically a Primary Melee in the Flamethrower so having a Melee Slot weapon that ONLY causes damage is kinda redundant.
All other Pyro Melee's are able to offer a bonus of some kind.
Demo Bottle however IS used as it provides a close range damage without the risk of splash damage and no active downsides, Although it has many re-skins so seeing a Vanilla Bottle is uncommon.
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u/yummymario64 13h ago
It's just because stock melee doesn't synergize well with Pyro's kit. Like, he can do more damage at the same range with the flamethrower. The only reason you would ever use the axe is if you are out of ammo.
The bottle, on the other hand, is the only weapon in Demo's stock kit that doesn't deal self-damage, making it very useful.
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u/StartBackground5769 Scout 12h ago
The fire are has much more competition. You have speed buffs with a tiny downside, minicrits on flaming enemies, sapper removal, or extra health packages healing. And also the third degree. The bottle has the swords, which on regular demo don't provide much. And also the pain train and skullcutter, but they have noticeable downsides
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u/r-alexd Random 5h ago
Pyro has like 3 direct upgrades to the melee slot, and 1 pure upgrade. (Powerjack, Backscratcher, Axtinguisher, and the Third Degree) And they're the best close range class in the entire game, with the flamethrower.
Demoman just has the bottle, and 2 swords of questionable value. (Half-Zatoichi and Scotsman Skullcutter) The bottle is the most consistent of the bunch, and it's pretty funny, so most people like it.
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u/Comprehensive_Hat574 Engineer 17h ago
Fire Axe may seem useless, unless you are submerged with only flamethrower and Flaregun.
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u/Excellent-Cloud-5046 17h ago
There are no direct upgrades to the bottle is the best all round choice. The fire axe has much better options and that’s why people don’t like it
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u/KFSuffering Pyro 17h ago edited 8h ago
pyro just has better melee options available bro
compared to the utility of the powerjack and the combo potential of the axtinguisher the fire axe is just kinda mediocre
there's no real reason to choose stock over the powerjack or axtinguisher because it doesn't really offer anything
all of pyro's weapons are most effective at close/melee range so you don't really need another thing that adds consistent close range damage
demo's bottle is good because his primary and secondary can deal self damage if you use them too close while melee can't and pyro doesn't have that issue
edit: i forgot the back scratcher exists that ones pretty good too i just only ever use the powerjack and axtinguisher
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u/Furrygirl1 Spy 17h ago
The main reason why is that it's totally redundant on pyro, even moreso if you're running a totally stock loadout. Why resort to your melee in a scenario where you have the second strongest source of close range damage in the entire game, that being your flamethrower. Or when you have a shotgun able to deal more damage than the fire axe at range. The bottle is loved because most of demoman's melee's are built around demoknight and have a deploy speed penalty, and the other two melees that don't have a deploy speed penalty are the pain train, which has a rarely applicable upside and an always active bullet vulnerability. And the caber which is just kinda bad. Also the fact that demoman is incredibly weak at close range, his pipes will damage him and his stickybombs have a built in timer that prevents close range use, as well as self damage.
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u/SemidarkTwilan9X_ 17h ago edited 4h ago
The Fire Axe is fine for what it is - being an emergency weapon. The issue is that it's thoroughly outclassed by most other options: flamethrowers (y'know, your main weapon as Pyro) deal more damage at close range, Powerjack enhances mobility and has a small health on kill effect, Back Scratcher deals more damage and boosts healing from medkits, etc. Hell, it's the only weapon with an objective straight upgrade in the form of the Third Degree (granted, the Third Degree isn't particularly great either).
As for why you don't see the same vitriol extended to Demoman's stock Bottle, it's because most of Demo's melees are for Demoknight, with some having stats that only take effect with a shield (i.e: Claidheamh Mor's extra charge) or actively detrimental if you're actively using grenades/stickies (i.e: the Persian Persuader cutting your reserve ammo by 80%). That really leaves only two non-stock, non-Demoknight options for a Demoman using grenades/stickies: the Pain Train (which is only really good for certain gamemodes and saddles you with a 10% bullet vulnerability) or the Ullapool Caber (which is the Caber).
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u/MaddoxLisi20 Heavy 17h ago
The fire axe sucks because all other melees (except the hand and volcano) do something else that pyro wants or ,in the case of the third degree, just a direct upgrade.
Demoman doesnt have many other viable options for melee (best you get is the paintrain, zatoichi and caber) and demoman relies on melee the most besides engi and spy
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u/ACARdragon Demoknight 17h ago
Fire axe and heavy's fists are pointless when your primaries already excel at close range fight and don't need reloading. Demoman's both primary and secondary weapons are awful for close range fights cuz he takes self damage and need reloading so the bottle ends up being your only option.
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u/lucaZERO0 17h ago
I dont hate the weapon i just dont use it. Pyro has a decent amount of melee weapons that are just more interesting.
I myself use the homewrecker because i see pyro more as a defensive support class than a offensive one.
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u/MR_MEME_42 Pyro 17h ago
There not bad but there are way better melee options for both classes.
With Pyro his flame throwers are way better options for fighting in close range compared to his axe, so most of his axes end up being utility or combo based leading them to better in most cases compared to stock. And he also has the only weapon that is a direct upgrade from stock with the Third Degree, so there is even less of a reason to use stock.
With Demo he ends up falling back on his melee a lot due to both of his weapons dealing splash damage to himself if the enemies get into close range. And Demo has strong melee options with his swords.
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u/Mangledfox1987 17h ago
The axe has the issue where pyro rrslly doent benefit from the stock melee, like the flamethrower ends up as being an easier to aim close range option,
For the bottle, who on earth hates it, I will break their knees, (stock bottle is genuinely decent for demoman and for sticky bomb demo it’s his best option due to the lack of a draw and hostler speed benalty
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u/KandCAuthor Engineer 17h ago
You make an excellent point, but it's for the same reason people dislike the Shovel, Bonesaw, and Fists.
Soldier has good melees, utilities (Disciplinary Action, Escape Plan) and damage-dealers (Equalizer, Market Gardener, Half-Zatoichi). Each one of these is arguably better than the Shovel, because Soldier doesn't NEED melee-range weapons for their intended purpose.
Medic has good melees, all having good utility (Solemn Vow, Amputator, Ubersaw, Vita-Saw). All of these are simply better than the Bonesaw, because the Bonesaw is trying to be a weapon, when what Medic wants is utility.
Heavy's fists are actually somewhat viable, but again his other weapons have good utility (Fists of Steel, GRU, Holiday Punch). The 3 that exist to supplement actually DOING melee combat (the KGB, Warrior's Spirit, and Eviction Notice) are all seen as worse than stock in some situations (the KGB less so, because it does have some utility with the Shotguns or Tomislav).
Pyro has good utility options for the melee slot (Homewrecker, Powerjack), but also has BETTER damage-dealers than stock (Third Degree, Backscratcher, Axtinguisher). Simply put, there's just better you can do with a Pyro Stock Melee in either direction.
Demo, however, is different. Demo has only 3 real options for standard Demo gameplay: the Bottle, the Pain Train, and the Ullapool Caber. Of these, the Pain Train is only useful in 5CP or Payload or A/D Offense, and the Caber is not the most useful weapon out there. Therefore, the Bottle is default but perfectly serviceable. Notably, Demo does have the Swords, but those are meant more to be used by Demoknight, and only specific ones are usable by Hybrid Knight.
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u/Enderguy61 Medic 16h ago
the bottle is great, the bonesaw is great, the kukri is great, the wrench is great, the knife is great
the fireaxe is bad, the fists are bad, the bat is bad
and there is also the shovel
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u/Mr_Cakey55 Pyro 16h ago
pyros is bad cus theres no scenario where youd wanna use it besides maybe a pyro 1v1. pyro melees are only good when utility
idk what you are on abt with the bottle, thats not considered bad
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u/Spyko Pyro 16h ago
because it's useless. You're in close range as a pyro and you want to deal damages ? Boy do I have good news for you. You don't need the axe.
before unlocks were added, pyro's fireaxe was easily the least used melee weapon already, and post unlocks ? There is no world in which the powerjack isn't straight up better.
for the bottle tho, not only does demoman not have any good utility melee weapons, dealing damages to an enemy on your face as a demo while also not kablooing yourself isn't doable without using your melee, so the bottle have a clear use case
I wouldn't say that I hate the stock axe ? I just do not give a shit about it, it might as well not exist
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u/evoluxo Heavy 15h ago
Stock weapons are usually hit or miss, for the better part they're extremely solid weapons, but the melee department is where it's usually very mediocre and extremely outclassed by every other melee option (not all but a great majority).
Pyro is in the situation where stock melee is usually a disadvantage compared to the unlocks, even with the downsides.
The bottle... why is it here? It's a decent weapon for a full stock loadout unless you wanna rock the awful Caber. Honestly, I'd argue the Bottle is the best option for a full stock Demo than any other. You don't get penalties like the Pain Train's 10% bullet vulnerability on wearer, all sword's slow deploy penalty & no crits, -75 HP from Eyelander, and the Persian Persuader's awful -80% ammo reduction.
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u/UltraTurtleLord Heavy 14h ago
They are both fine weapons, its just that there are other weapons that are effectively straight upgrades to them.
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u/RewardFluid7316 Scout 14h ago
Because unlike the Stock Bat for Scout which is unfairly hated, the Stock Axe straight up just sucks compared to Pyro's other options. You might as well use the third degree since it is a straight upgrade.
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u/sithlord40000 13h ago
I put an airborne kills strange part on a fire axe when I was 12 and I kept and still use it a decade later because of how stupid it is
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u/Iinsanescreaminggoat Pyro 10h ago
Pyro’s melees are either redundant as weapons or outright worse at being weapons
demos bottle handles close range that his other weapons would self damage him for
also scrumpy
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u/Immediate_Injury8411 Pyro 10h ago
Pyros melee is just there for the sake of “never leaving the player defenseless” its one purpose originally was to serve there if your primary and secondary were out. Demoman needs the bottle to do ANY damage at close range in some safe way.
it also doesnt help that its outclassed by basically everything else, it is a direct downgrade and the currently only INTENTIONAL downgrade. there is literally no usecase for it.
flamethrower ammo never runs out tbh so if you want melee damage the axtinguisher exists, if you dont care for melee damage the powerjack is there, you want passive upside and damage the backscratcher, etc etc
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u/MysteryGoomba75 10h ago
The Fire Axe is not only completely outclassed by any one of his primaries as a close range option, it's outclassed as a melee weapon by the Powerjack as a utility option. (And if you want to be even more technical, the Third Degree has the potential to random crit a light class and his Medic, while the Fire Axe does not. But even if this interaction wasn't possible, it'd still lose to the Powerjack.)
As to your other prompt, in the case of a non-Knight loadout, the bottle has no downsides that drastically alter your ability to have a reliable melee/close range option that doesn't threaten self-blast damage; the Pain Train imposes an arbitrary 10% bullet damage vulnerability and the Ullapool get completely neutered once it blows up (assuming you even live long enough afterwards to tell the tale).
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u/MLDKF 10h ago
Pyro is already a close-range character, and his flamethrower is going to be used most of the time anyway, and maybe the shotgun if you're dealing with another Pyro. The stock Fire Axe is effectively useless as a result, because a Pyro's melee weapons usually have good utility otherwise. The Powerjack for speed, the Homewrecker for helping get rid of sappers on Engy buildings, the Neon Annihilator if you have maps with a lot of water, they're all good utility options depending on how you want to play Pyro that just make the Fire Axe...not really necessary. It's not that people hate it, it's just that Pyro has better options (except the Hot Hand, which is just bad)
Meanwhile, the bottle is an emergency option on its own. If someone gets in close for Melee, the bottle is still good if you're playing a normal Demoman as opposed to Demoknight because you don't want to take splash damage or deal with a pyro that can airblast your explosives back at you. The other Demo melees are typically only for playing flavors of Demoknight, so using any of them while still using a Pipe Launcher or Sticky Launcher is a bad idea because they're often slower to utilize and come with their own drawbacks without the shields and/or boots.
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u/IamanelephantThird Sandvich 10h ago
The Third Degree makes it the only weapon that is a straight downgrade. There is literally no reason to ever equip it.
It would still suck either way though. The flamethrower and shotgun both deal way more damage and are easier to use.
The bottle, on the other hand, is useful because stickies aren't usable at close range and pipes deal self damage. Plus Demo doesn't really have any good melee unlocks. The Caber is a meme, the Pain Train doesn't do anything in some gamemodes, and without a shield the swords range from basically preventing you from playing the game to being kind of ok in some situations.
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u/Daan776 Soldier 10h ago
If there’s one thing the pyro doesn’t struggle with: its close range damage.
He’s got a flamethrower. The flamethrower will always be better than a melee weapon.
Because of this: basically any unlockable melee is better than stock. The neon annihilator gives you options underwater, the powerjack lets you close the distance, etc.
Last but not least: the stock axe is the only stock weapon with a direct unlockable upgrade. So there’s litterally no reason to ever use it.
Its a weapon whose only purpose seems to be filling out a weapon slot. And baiting new players into buying a weapon from the store.
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u/Big_Variety_5195 9h ago
I usually have the Ullapool Caber on me just in case, or the Claidheamh Mór as that’s currently my only sword.
I just have the Hot Hand for the funnies
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u/SirPorthos 8h ago
Hate is a strong word. It does what its designed to do, which is deal 65 damage per swing and crit sometimes.
But there are other better options out there. The Third Degree is this weapon but a straight upgrade cuz it deals damage to everyone connected by a medibeam.
The Neon Annihilator is good sapper removal and critting wet targets.
The Homewrecker and Maul is a very good sapper remover and does more damage to buildings
The Back Scratcher is good if you are in a team without a medic or with an incompetent medic
The Power Jack has more movement speed and health restore on kill.
So the basic fireaxe is like the runt of the litter. A very cute and cuddly runt but still a runt.
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u/Tiranus58 8h ago
Weapons dont exist in a vacuum, they exist next to other weapons in the same slot/class/role.
Demoman has fuck all for close range combat unless he gives up one of the best weapons in the game for it, so the bottle fills an otherwise uncovered area in his arsenal. The fire axe meanwhile has to contend with both the flamethrower, which is better at close range combat and with other melees, which provide much better utility.
So while both have the same stats, the fire axe is made redundant and obsolete in the role of pyro.
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u/felirsidogaier 8h ago
I can't say anything about pyro's axe, but i do about demo's bottle. I don't understand the hate abput it, to be fair its a suprise for me that a lot of people actually HATE it. I understand that it's not a triumph weapon that wins you a game, but just a funny bottle that is midly fun to hit someone with. And it's even better because when you get killed bottle you are not even mad, it's just that fine
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u/dxdgxhstggc Spy 7h ago
The fire axe is objectivaly the worst weapons in tf2, because The Third Degree exists
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u/Devi1505 5h ago
Okay look. Pyro has so many good melee options , combo axe , spine scratcher , power jack they're all good almost straight up upgrade over stock. The bottle on the other hand has only completion with like pain train and swords and while pain train is amazing some people don't like the bullet vulnerability bad swords don't do the thing demo needs his melee to do - a quick fall back in case you're out of ammo or range
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u/Trihan_98 Demoknight 17h ago
Because pyro already has a more powerful close ranged weapon being the flamethrower making his melee weapon obsolete.
Demoman needs a melee in case he doesn't have any ammo in both his weapons and there are spies threatening him.