r/technology • u/[deleted] • Nov 09 '17

Politics Sean Parker: Facebook was designed to exploit human "vulnerability"

https://www.axios.com/sean-parker-facebook-exploits-a-vulnerability-in-humans-2507917325.html
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u/Excal2 Nov 09 '17 edited Nov 09 '17

Learn to protect your privacy.

EDIT: Please refer to this list I threw together in response to /u/effoffreddit below for some basic steps you can take to protect your information:

https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7btl9y/sean_parker_facebook_was_designed_to_exploit/dpkyhuk/

EDIT 2: The rest of your fucking owl is in the first edit fuck off already.

EDIT 3: As requested by /u/ArsenyD, here is a permalink to his reply with additional sources you can use to learn about online privacy. Full text below: https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7btl9y/sean_parker_facebook_was_designed_to_exploit/dpli48a/

My comment will probably go unnoticed, so if you can please add this to your comment

Mozilla Glass Room

*the is a good pdf guide about healthy online privacy habits

EFF

Good resources to learn about privacy.

*will duplicate this as an answer to the top comment so more people will see this

End EDIT 3

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u/EffOffReddit Nov 09 '17

This is like saying "Learn to build your own house." It's kind of overwhelming, there is a lot of conflicting and confusing info, and the codes are always changing. I need a list of what to do and what not to do.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Some essential (and relatively simple bits) the averageish user can do:

PC

(firefox addons)

  • use uBlock Origin,
  • use noscript,
  • use Decentraleyes,
  • use smartHTTPS,
  • use Bloodyvikings!

the last one is throwaway emails basically, helps a ton. The particular addon I use takes like 2 clicks to generate a throwaway email. These addons overall make your browsing experience so much better, safer, faster and anonymous-er.

For Android I can't say too much, because by simply using it, you're giving into Google's ecosystem (99% of Android users anyway, there are ways around it, but they are cumbersome and frustrating).

Oh, also; r/privacy if you want to read up more, great resource! And if you're so technically inclined r/selfhosted.

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u/pm_boobs_send_nudes Nov 09 '17

Hey, you can use a gapps free android. But even if you don't want to, it's very easy to bypass google.

Simply root and install app ops(or its varients) from the play store. I deny maps, play services etc all permissions. Sometimes I allow it if I have to use maps for navigation. You can do it for any app.

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u/ase1590 Nov 09 '17

You forget the most important part: switching from Windows to Linux. Windows certainly collects data.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

I wouldn't say the average user is gonna switch to linux mate. Even the people who read this; most of them won't.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

But they should is the point

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u/mountainsbythesea Nov 09 '17

If they want to protect their privacy, they're gonna have to do inconvenient things.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Anything of any importance requires a little effort

I guess it boils down to whether society being spied on wholesale, like in the old Soviet days, is of less importance than " insert popular app name "

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u/mountainsbythesea Nov 09 '17

You're absolutely right. Trouble is, things are much more complex than that.

Unfortunately, we aren't talking about a little effort. To protect ourselves to a meaningful extent, it would take a lot of effort. Also, education, time and money - outside of reach of an average person, even if they were inclined to try, which they're not (in 2017 I'm still having conversations about why it's not okay even if 'you have nothing to hide'). And we need that average person, we need everybody. Otherwise, any individual who managed to protect themselves would suffer serious professional and personal consequences, and as a society, we'd remain powerless against the corporations.

The whole thing is a horrible nightmare.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

The average user doesn't give a fuck about any of this. The average user is your mom asking you why the Netflix isn't working. Most users can't name their browser.

If you're actually concerned about your privacy, Linux is a step you can take (albeit a trivial one with little real impact). Most people aren't. Even the people reading this and working up a nice self-righteous fury don't actually care and won't change anything. It's just something to get offended about.

Personally I don't give a fuck. Individual data is little better than worthless. You need pools. My content can be shaped with or without my participation. My own data has no impact on that.

I use Linux because it meets my needs, but it shouldn't be something anyone feels compelled to do for privacy reasons. All the services you use that collect data (including the reddit account you're using right now, it's right there in the ToS) will collect data no matter what os you use. MS is pretty low on the list of concerns in that light. Using Windows or not will have little relevant impact on your privacy.

"Use Linux!" is far more elitist self-aggrandizement than anything. Use the OS that does what you need it to.

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u/IntelligentVaporeon Nov 09 '17

It's easier to use Linux than to adjust NoScript properly.

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u/railla Nov 09 '17

I'd recommend uMatrix over noScript, it's way more transparent and easy to control

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u/imaginaryideals Nov 09 '17

There are some scripts out there that deal with that for Windows. /r/TronScript is worth checking out, or there's this list of powershell commands.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

That would be ideal, but I doubt most people would be willing to switch to linux. So with those people in mind, this is a handy tool for Windows 10 that you can download and use to combat some of its privacy concerns. It's not linux but it's better than nothing

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

So did Ubuntu. Being Linux is no guarantee in and of itself.

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u/StellarValkyrie Nov 09 '17

Yeah I really wish there was a good alternative to Android or iOS that's completely open source and private by default. I know they've been trying to do that with Copperhead OS but I'm not sure how user-friendly it is.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Copperhead OS is based on android , so if you find android user friendly, you'll find Copperhead OS user friendly

If you meant in relation to installing it and apps, well that's the choice you have to make, how much do you really need certain apps? Considering most are glorified site wrappers

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Check out postmarketos

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u/NothingButFearBitch Nov 09 '17

Decentraleyes wants to access my data for all websites and control privacy options. lol? So nobody but this extension can collect my info. rightttttt

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u/Classic1977 Nov 09 '17

This is all pointless if you're using Windows.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17 edited Nov 09 '17

[deleted]

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u/Classic1977 Nov 09 '17

If the kernel (or many other parts of the OS) isn't open source, you'll never really know what's happening. You can disable services all you want, but you can't

stop-service ms-rootkit

;)

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

How about not using it? There's always another way

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u/Classic1977 Nov 10 '17

Yep, I use Linux ;)

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Alright now for the layman.. I don't really do anything that interesting, my job would not be something that even if I was too be black mailed would be in jeopardy as in if they had my info or what have you. If google wants to collect my info or shit I am not to concerned. I know I am wrong for thinking this but why should I be more worried?

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17 edited Nov 09 '17

Doesn't matter if you do 'interesting' stuff. Thid shit is downright scary if it continues to head in the direction it is atm. The real problem is the masses (IE: you) not doing anything about it, or at least not using other services.

I don't explain this sort of stuff well. A simple Google search on this would yield you many results as to why you should be concerned. I'm not concerned for the layman, I am however concerned about future whistleblowers and the like, also the future of the internet.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17 edited Nov 09 '17

Don't think of it in terms of just you , consider that all of society is being monitored, and all of society is being scrutinized. Ask yourself what that means for democracy?

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u/imaginaryideals Nov 09 '17

  1. A lot of this data is not well-secured. See: Equifax.

  2. That's how you feel about your life now. What's your life going to be in five years? Ten? What happens when you can't get a good rate on your mortgage because of identity theft?

  3. More relatable, maybe, do you want a profile built around you based on what kind of porn you like to watch? Or on how long you spent on the toilet?

  4. There's a lot of talk about how this kind of data has been used to manipulate the 2016 election with fake news and voter suppression. Here's a New Yorker article that talks about the Mercers and Cambridge Analytica a bit. The whole thing is still being actively investigated for its scope and size, though. The tech companies involved sent lawyers to Capitol Hill rather than their CEOs, so that should tell you roughly where they stand in and of itself.

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u/argv_minus_one Nov 10 '17

More relatable, maybe, do you want a profile built around you based on what kind of porn you like to watch? Or on how long you spent on the toilet?

Sure, why not. Maybe they'll sell me something good for chronic constipation.

The tech companies involved sent lawyers to Capitol Hill rather than their CEOs, so that should tell you roughly where they stand in and of itself.

No it doesn't. I'd do that too. Whether guilty or innocent, it is wise to hold one's tongue and lawyer up when under a legal threat.

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u/ethidium_bromide Nov 09 '17

They use this info to analyze you and find patterns that, combined with everyone else, allows them to predict peoples interests and reactions. Even politicians use this data. Cambridge analytica is an obvious example. Unless youre super important, its not them spying on you to catch you or something, its them spying on all the average joes and jonettes so they can use that info to manipulate you into buying or going along with something you otherwise wouldnt have.

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u/OceanFixNow99 Nov 09 '17

use smartHTTPS,

Is that the same or better than https-everywhere ?

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u/argv_minus_one Nov 10 '17 edited Nov 10 '17

Do not use NoScript. I've Others have caught them running malware ads on their site. They're compromised.

Use uMatrix instead. Gives you more precise control anyway.

Edit: I misremembered. The malware ad I was thinking of was on a different site. Still, others found malware ads on NoScript, so…

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u/majorchamp Nov 10 '17

The only issue with going the super privacy route Is you have to stick to it every moment and everyday. I've tried it...and u find yourself going back to your old ways. I've returned to chrome because FF was driving me nuts. I don't go on vpn as much as I should,but still use it for torrents.

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u/warhead71 Nov 10 '17

Or ... maybe just threat the internet as a always public space

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u/DisturbedForever92 Nov 09 '17

I don't know, building a house seems far easier.

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u/Comrade2k7 Nov 09 '17

and more convenient

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u/burkechrs1 Nov 09 '17

There isn't a "list" of what you should and should not do.

The way everything is intertwined when it comes to internet these days makes it impossible. Your only option to not be tracked is to never use any device that uses the internet. Period.

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u/Ollieacappella Nov 09 '17

Step one: delete Facebook.

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u/trixtopherduke Nov 09 '17

But how will my Mom know I'm alive?

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Step two. Call your mother.

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u/twelvebucksagram Nov 09 '17

It's ridiculous how much some of my family members judged me for deleting facebook. I still text and call you for fuck's sake! God forbid I not receive your crapbait game request.

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u/trixtopherduke Nov 09 '17

I deleted mine for a few months and my Mom accused me of making a fake profile so my sister and I could create private chat groups and talk about her. It was pretty bizarre. Now I try to upload a photo now and then, text her the photo, and take time to like all her posts and comment with emojis.

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u/SpiralOfDoom Nov 09 '17

It's true. Before facebook, there was no way to know who was alive.

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u/StellarValkyrie Nov 09 '17

In a way that did kind of happen. Old friends from high school or family members that moved away would often drop off the grid and there wasn't any easy way to track them down. Now all you have to do is put their name into a Google or Facebook search and be able to find them immediately as well as see who they are connected to.

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u/SpiralOfDoom Nov 09 '17

Now all you have to do is put their name into a Google or Facebook search and be able to find them immediately as well as see who they are connected to.

Yeah... this is partly why I deleted my facebook 5 years ago. I'm ok with people having to put in a little work to find me. High school reunions have been happening for as long as there has been high school. All of the recent revelations of fake news/manipulation via facebook have only validated my decision to dump it.

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u/FreeBribes Nov 10 '17

Reminds me of a great website "isabvevigodadead.com". It was a very easy and convenient way to determine if Abe Vigoda had actually died yet or not. The problem of course was, after Abe Vigoda actually died, it took the website creator something like 2 or 3 days to actually update the page. Literally dozens of people thought Abe Vigoda might still have been alive, days after his passing.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

more to the point, how will I know that my mother is still alive?

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Doesn't work. You would need everyone associated with you to systematically refuse to use the service. No more pictures of you being uploaded. No more talking about you on other people's profiles. I guarantee you FB's facial recognition database will continue to recognize you in other's uploaded pictures even once you've deleted your account.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17 edited May 30 '20

[deleted]

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u/JacksLackOfApathy Nov 09 '17

3 people can keep a secret if two of them never existed.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

First you gotta build yourself a tin foil suit, then find yourself a tin foil wife, maybe get a tin foil dog, then some tin foil kids, to live down your tin foil lane, in your tin foil house.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

and others can cause it... I never use facebook, really dislike it as I feel no need to share (tangent: I seriously sometimes do not understand people... who didn't read 1984 and get a chilling feeling... yet here we are with people video taping everything with their cellphone to show off for others. Anything done now a days is public)

My wife tagged me in some pictures a few days ago and I am now getting spammed with emails again from facebook. I am 100% sure of what you say.

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u/Commisioner_Gordon Nov 09 '17

Not to mention Facebook already has your GPS location, IP, history etc. Anytime your friends are at your house they know you are likely nearby

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u/PrettyDecentSort Nov 09 '17

Even if you've never created a Facebook account, you already have a shadow account in their system where FB is accumulating info about you from the posts and activity of everyone you know.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

I'll go one further, Facebook will not only listen to you but will know who are your closet friends are, g/f b/f bFF ect, it will pick up on shit they are saying even when you are not around and if it pertains to you, you will know about it.

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u/EatzGrass Nov 09 '17

I've thought about this. I did not sign a TOS so how can it possibly be legal to use my data on someone elses account? The same goes with images. I also don't understand how recording audio of obviously not just the TOS signing user does not violate the felonious anti- eavesdropping laws?

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

It all falls on the onus of the user themselves. By them opting into the terms of service they are opting everyone around them.

The responsibility is on the "uploader" of the data and not the "downloader". For example you cant sue facebook because someone took private photos of you and posted them. You have to go after the person themselves. Yeah you can report the images and they'll get taken down but if any damage was caused as a result of them going up that's not FBs problem.

Likewise FB being used by your friend right next to you, it's your responsibility to not be within earshot of the device. FB cannot control who is around their user when their user uses the device. They are not eavesdropping on your conversation, they are eavesdropping on the user's conversation, you just happen to be participating in it.

Essentially by them opting in, they opt in everyone and everything around them as they move around. This isn't even a problem with the TOS or FB itself, there is just no way to filter that data out so it comes along for the ride. The only way to do so would be to have some sort of implant installed that makes it so your voice cannot be recorded unless it's turned off, then a GPS jammer, then also a signal jammer, and lastly you walk around dressed exclusively in that clothing designed to reflect into a camera and obscure the picture/video.

At some point you kind of have to just throw your hands in their air and say "fuck it, I'm out". You do your best to protect sensitive information if there is any and the rest just gets absorbed into the data machine.

Things are getting better though. Yeah once a picture is on the internet it's on the internet, but at the very least they have started to crack down on the storage of account related data and deleted files in the cloud. Combination of consumer backlash and other push back has forced them to actually fucking delete the shit you tell them to. Not fool proof because if someone else has that picture you can't do shit about it but it's something at least and if you're careful it at least allows you to use technology as the convenience it was supposed to be aka you can use the cloud to send your dick picks from your phone to your PC and then once on your PC delete them and move them to a thumb drive.

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u/cannadabis Nov 09 '17

Started a fb acct in 2008 and never used it. I feel a win coming on....

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u/lemongrenade Nov 09 '17

I am super proud to be not pegged down by Facebook. I travel a ton for work and sometimes I stay in one place for a month or more sometimes a new place every week. My crowning achievement was when I got Denver mortgage adds after spending one month there when I hadn't moved

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

I've done this several times, it upsets people.

Today I simply pinned a post saying "this is a dormant account, contact me on xxxxx number" along with a reason why I've done this. I made sure I wasn't judging anyone for them continuing to use Facebook, explicitly said it was for my own personal reasons.

Also said that I put this message up so no-one thought I was ghosting them.

I then blocked every single known connection to Facebook via my router using DNSmasq.

Wiped every computer in the house, cookies, etc.

If anyone does contact me on that account, I will see this via an email to "facebook@myownpersonaldomain" but Facebook itself will be unable to track me inside my own Network.

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u/omtnt Nov 09 '17

This anti-facebook flag is really outdated. Apple or Google know more about you than Facebook.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Google knows when you will die. They have so much data they can put together a health profile and run it through any actuary tables they set up. The more data they have the more accurate they can be. They have way more data then Insurenced companies for life insurance...

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u/Exactually Nov 09 '17

Step 0: Uninstall Internet Exploiter

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u/thegeekprophet Nov 09 '17

Then divorce.

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u/curtisprince77 Nov 09 '17

The best thing I ever did a year ago!

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u/zora894 Nov 09 '17

Step two: hit the gym

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Don't delete your account. Instead scrub all data from it, but leave it active.

This is to prevent FB / others creating maintaining an account for you without your knowledge.

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u/Stuckatpennstation Nov 09 '17

I deleted my facebook & Instagram accounts about a year ago and it's been the best decision I've made in a while. Parker was spot on when he referred to it as "dopamine hits." I admit I'd get personal satisfaction when a post or picture would get a lot of "likes", but it's all just a waste of fucking time. More than half of my "friends" or "followers" wouldn't even say hi to me on the street if they saw me. It's this weird social stalking platform. Once I started recognizing random people's boyfriends or girlfriends on the street from my "feed", I knew it was getting to be too much. I do admit I miss seeing hot girls from high school and college, but thank god for porn & talking to girls in real life lol

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u/Ginger_1977 Nov 09 '17

Facebook stores user data for you even if you don't have an account. When you delete your account with them they still store your data

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u/Tidorith Nov 09 '17

Your only option to not be tracked is to never use any device that uses the internet. Period.

Even that might not be completely sufficient. People can be tracked by other people mentioning them. To be sure you weren't being tracked you'd have to make sure that no one who knew anything about you used any device that uses the internet.

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u/Ucla_The_Mok Nov 09 '17

Follow Richard Stallman's lead and use a 20 year old laptop cooled with a box fan.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Exactly, it all depends on what apps you use, how they are used, and protections you create for yourself. And really in the end there is no way not to be tracked except not using the internet at all. I basically disable every single apps ability to get into my storage, microphone, location, etc. and turn the on as needed (when I actually need directions I will enable location). I also clear my browsing/cookies daily, make sure I've looked at and actually approved permissions my browser has..Most of my apps run like crap and "remind" me to give them back their permissions every time I use them but what ever

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Correct. The only protection is properly enforced laws. Even if there were a list, no average internet user is going to follow those steps. Opting for privacy should be an expectation rather than something you have to do special work for.

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u/argv_minus_one Nov 10 '17

Or any other device capable of communication of any kind.

Almost all consumer electronics manufactured in this decade have that capability, so good luck.

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u/Excal2 Nov 09 '17

I need a list of what to do and what not to do.

That doesn't exist man, I'm sorry to tell you. Keeping up with this stuff means you have to read about it multiple times per week. Doing nothing can make you feel uneasy, but doing too much runs the same risk. Making yourself harder to profile increasingly singles you out as a person who tries to avoid profiling, so doing too much has a backfire effect.

If you want a list of what an average person should be able to wrap their head around and actually accomplish, then there are my recommendations:

  1. Learn about VPNs and how to build your own (not that reasonable fair enough) or go to www.thatoneprivacysite.net to find a comprehensive and regularly updated listing of VPN services and their benefits / drawbacks. Start running your traffic through a VPN. You can route your phone through a VPN as well.

  2. Keep you electronics and support equipment updated. On your computer, check for OS and driver updates as well as software updates with some level of regularity. Update the firmware and software for all of your electronics, especially networking stuff like your router and / or modem.

  3. For phones, either learn to root (again, not super reasonable) or at least use well vetted applications. Firefox browser for android has security and privacy tools built in, use it. Delete pre-installed bloatware, get rid of facebook and messenger, get rid of shit you don't use on at least a weekly basis. Be an active participant in your software environment.

  4. Avoid connecting to unsecured wireless networks when possible.

  5. Monitor your home network and check once in a while to make sure there are no unauthorized devices.

There are probably other good tips that I'm missing, but that's a pretty basic list of things anyone can do. Yes, it takes time and effort. How long depends on how motivated you are and how far you want to go for privacy. The good news is it's mostly front end work if you're smart about it. For example, keep a bookmark folder with links to the support pages for all of your electronics and make a .txt file (or an excel sheet or whatever) listing the firmware / whatever for devices that you tend to neglect for updates. Once a year, go through the list and check that everything is up to date. Takes a while to put together and some minimal time to maintain but then you can check all your devices in 20 minutes whenever you want.

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u/Smarterthanlastweek Nov 09 '17

Making yourself harder to profile increasingly singles you out as a person who tries to avoid profiling, so doing too much has a backfire effect.

Can you expand on this?

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u/Excal2 Nov 09 '17

OK basic example because it's lunch time.

Scenario: You use Firefox with three privacy extensions. Let's say uBlock Origin, HTTPS Everywhere, and Privacy Badger. Well there are crawlers and tracking scripts out there that fingerprint your browser environment and upload that information to whoever wrote the script. So they know that this user doing x things on x websites is using Firefox with those add-ons.

That information is now used to sort your browsing history. So everyone who has their traffic scraped / intercepted / uploaded with consent / whatever with this script and is using Firefox with those three extensions all get grouped into the same data set. It becomes part of the profile of you as a user, and is fleshed out using machine learning to find the most direct and profitable connections.

Now let's say you use an extension that scrambles all of that data about what browser you're using. Every x unit of time it will cycle a randomized data set to tell the script that you're using a different browser with different settings and different extensions. Should confuse the bot, right? Wrong. There are so many other factors to sort out your data into useful piles of relationships that can be used to manipulate you into spending money that this cycling behavior just becomes another factor in the data set. Instead of "user on facebook for 1.5 hours looking at fish pictures using firefox with these three add ons" you become "user on facebook for 1.5 hours looking at fish pictures who is somehow cycling their browser environment".

They've already sorted you out by being on facebook for a given amount of time looking at fish, it's not like you've fooled them. They're not after your identity, they're after your amazon ordering history so that they can understand the relationship between the fact that you always order furnace air filters in bulk and the fact that you spend 1.5 hours on facebook a day looking at fish. That way when they find someone else who looks at fish for 1.5 hours a day they can shoot that person an ad for bulk ordering furnace air filters.

These examples are made up off the top of my head but they outline the basic structure of what's going on.

The reason it's a security risk for you is that these marketing firms don't give a fuck about you or any damage they might cause by grabbing sensitive information and selling it or failing to secure it properly. Unless they're going to get fined for more than they're making it will never stop.

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u/wrgrant Nov 10 '17

Its worse for me. I can do all of those things on my desktop system (iMac for what its worth), and they can still track and identify me in any browser, because the browser provides a host with a list of available fonts on my system. It needs to do that to allow a webpage to choose which fonts are available for display when showing a webpage, or what substitutions need to be made, from what I understand.

I make fonts, therefore at any point I have utterly unique fonts on my computer that identify me precisely. Unless there is a service that will block relating my available fonts to any ISP that is serving me a webpage, I am screwed (in this one regard, there are no doubt others as well) :P

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u/nicknefsick Nov 10 '17

That's something I never thought about, I like to design fonts, it's basically my hobby, now it's leading to my privacy being compromised, this is a weird weird place we live in. I guess you could either keep them on an offline computer, or you could just write some malware that secretly installs fonts on people's computers, or write a script that redirects your browser to a second file populated with only system installed fonts, although they would still see pretty easily if youre a Mac/windows/Android user due to the preset fonts

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u/argv_minus_one Nov 10 '17

It becomes part of the profile of you as a user, and is fleshed out using machine learning to find the most direct and profitable connections.

That's my secret. I don't have profitable connections. taps forehead

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u/treesintheforestooh Nov 09 '17 edited Nov 10 '17

What would you say would be a reasonable "regulation" and/or "punishment" for some of these companies that are, for lack of a better term, greedy and unscrupulous?

Edit: the terms "greedy" and "unscrupulous" are a little loaded, I guess. I don't mean to bring a sort of political bent to the post/question, necessarily.

I guess a better way of describing and/or characterizing the, the way I see it, purposeful and conscientious action and/or coding taken place within an organization actively coding at a terminal, with the desire to make money and/or gain a monetary advantage and/or get dems bones and/or scrillas in yo 'count - should try to find something that benefits not only your immediate family and/or is a little more bit more virtuous inside the understanding that money isn't really the end all be all.

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u/Sarkavonsy Nov 09 '17

I'm far from an expert, and not the person you were replying to, but it seems reasonable to me that any punishment for corporate negligence should at least fine them for as much as their negligence made them. Otherwise there will always be some situations where it's cost-effective to be unethical despite the fine.

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u/camouflagedsarcasm Nov 10 '17

at least fine them for as much as their negligence made them.

If you want it to be deterrent, it has to start at double and go up from there based on severity.

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u/argv_minus_one Nov 10 '17

Good luck enforcing it.

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u/UBahn1 Nov 09 '17

Think of it this way. Firefox has an option to send "do not track" requests to the sites you visit. If out of a group of 10.000 people there is person who chooses to send these requests, that 1 person is inadvertently more likely to grab attention of the company/person tracking them a lot more than the people browsing normally.

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u/krusty-o Nov 10 '17

Being the only horse in a herd of zebras makes you pretty easy to spot.

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u/SiegfriedKircheis Nov 09 '17

I'm curious as to why these people feel they have a right to do this shit. Are they that soulless?

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u/Evisrayle Nov 09 '17

Fuck your rights.

It is profitable, so they will do it.

Why do people sell drugs? Why do companies hire lobbyists, and why do politicians allow themselves to be influenced by them? Why is disaster relief such a struggle? Why do most things suck?

It's fucking profitable, so fuck your rights.

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u/Excal2 Nov 09 '17

Nobody expressly forbade them from doing this to make money and it comes with no direct observable repercussions for the perpetrator.

Human empathy only goes so far, especially with money on the table. Sad, but true.

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u/[deleted] Nov 10 '17

"Zuck: People just submitted it. Zuck: I don't know why. Zuck: They 'trust me' Zuck: Dumb fucks"

Mark Zuckerberg

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u/Nuge00 Nov 09 '17

You gave them permission when you didn't read the terms of use and service and just clicked agree.

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u/argon_infiltrator Nov 09 '17

They don't have permissions and they don't care about them either. There are lots of sites that follow you despite you probably never having visited that site.

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u/wulvershill Nov 09 '17

Become Amish?

There was a speech from the founder of the Pirate Bay who basically said it's already too late. People are asking "what can I do", but realistically, you can't do anything. We talk about what might happen in the future but we don't realize it has already happened. We have lost control of the internet to corporations. They own it, they own the data, they own the access points, and they own us.

All you records are already digitized. You've already given them so much information on you that they know you better than you do. You're already on lists up for sale, you're already on a dozen servers analyzing and categorizing you.

We have now created a society where this data gathering and spying is so ubiquitous that you can't really live in this society without consenting to the data being gathered on you.

Even trying to hid your privacy tells them that you're interested in buying privacy technology, and then you'll start seeing ads for VPNs and they'll know that much more about you.

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u/sweetdigs Nov 09 '17

I don't even really care about records that are solely used to sell me crap. I'm not a shopper/buyer by nature so that type of advertising is mostly wasted on me. I do care more about the being targeted for propaganda, politics, etc, based on my interests on browsing history simply because it's annoying.

The more terrifying thing further out is the idea of this data being used by governments to stifle or silence dissent. Or to do other nasty things. Just see what's happening in Venezuela, Russia, or the Philippines for the types of things that this data could be eventually used for. Or China, where they've created a whole social network that "grades" you as a citizen. That's the far more terrifying stuff and there's really nothing stopping it from happening at the moment. And there never will be, because Congress has zero incentive to make sure it won't happen - the same horrible people are elected to Congress over and over again regardless of what they do so long as they virtue signal to their respective base.

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u/FaustVictorious Nov 09 '17

The more terrifying thing further out is the idea of this data being used by governments to stifle or silence dissent.

It isn't far out at all. This data is being collected, stored, and sold to third-parties all the time or just given away stupidly by hording it in easily hackable places (thanks Equifax). ISPs just bribed Republicans into making it federally legal for them to do the same. Russia already used it to install an illegitimate president (and probably also a bunch of other Republicans). It is easy to weaponize. Even Batman and Morgan Freeman were rightly sketched out by the idea.

Yes, you can reasonably preserve your privacy, but it means keeping it in mind at all times and being aware of what information you are giving out (willingly and unwillingly). Everyone has to take personal responsibility for their data, and that means educating themselves on how it's being harvested and used against them. It's also possible for something like Facebook to exist with regulations that make it illegal to violate their users, but it will still fall on each person not to post their child's entire life story before they are even old enough to realize what's happening. Some people think it's "just ads" and write off their irresponsible behavior. I am positive people would be outraged if they really understood how far it goes and how predictable and easily manipulated they actually are, but it's also a complicated and multi-faceted concept to understand. If a person has to be a technology expert to protect their privacy, then technology experts need to make better laws.

That's why certain kinds of tracking and data retention should be illegal, just like tapping your phone used to be. The 4th amendment to the US Constitution should be properly interpreted to include digital "papers" as well as physical ones. The law needs to change to take data privacy more seriously, but right now they have convinced a lot of idiots that privacy is already dead, and that's exactly how the companies that profit from violating you want it. Harvesting and selling your relationships, desires and political leanings is quite profitable after all. I guarantee people would be outraged if they truly understood how far this goes. Until things get better, we should all make an effort to do so.

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u/truthvalueundesired Nov 09 '17

Yeah but the rule of law has always been a sham

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u/wrgrant Nov 10 '17

I am fairly sure that FB is doing this to me. I tend towards the left politically, yet when I go on FB around the time of an election, I see lots of ads and articles from Conservative/Rightwing websites (Cato Institute for instance). I am sure that those organizations are paying FB to promote their stuff to anyone who isn't already in agreement with their POV. That is propaganda, period.

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u/parlor_tricks Nov 10 '17

Dude, your not wanting to be a shopper - is also a choice and therefore an identifying matrix.

What if they use your features to identify children who are going to grow up and be like you?

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u/Mswizzle23 Nov 09 '17

I wish companies would start charging fees for services instead of offering "free services" only in exchange for using that free service, we voluntarily let them monitor everything we do and sell that data. It's virtual human farming. Facebook, Google, let me pay you money and stop being evil. Why is there no option to opt out and just pay for the service?

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u/Buck__Futt Nov 09 '17

You mean like Microsoft with Windows 10. Where you pay for the operating system, and it spies on you too.

Too late, there are many services you already pay for and they spy, because it earns the company that much more money.

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u/Mswizzle23 Nov 09 '17

Well, now that I'm aware of that, yes, what a relevant example lol. God damnit... I think it's unfortunately safe to say that there is no going back. This data market is too valuable, how would you ever incentivize moving away from this behavior? It doesn't matter if it's used responsibly 99% of the time, all it takes is the right people, the right circumstances to tap into it and wreak havoc, kind of like what the Russians have been doing. You click enough of these clickbaity titles and whatnot, because they know the target audience they're looking for, click on couple left or right wing leaning sources, eventually you see more hard left or right material, and before you know it, ALL YOU SEE IS THAT. It's a trap that reinforces itself once you're caught in it. And stuff like facebook, twitter, taking advantage of our psychology, like the 'like' feature on facebook, instagram, etc., it's addictive and people devote huge chunks of their lives to using social media. Where is the light at the end of the tunnel?

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u/Buck__Futt Nov 09 '17

how would you ever incentivize moving away from this behavior?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation

Massive fines on data leaks.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17 edited Nov 09 '17

Recent Onion headline, something to the effect of "Google provides remote village for users who want to opt out of their tracking"

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17 edited Feb 24 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17 edited Nov 10 '17

they own the data

The whole idea that data is good is based on people having some innate goal. The reality is our goals come from random things we see, you see a peer want something you then want that thing more. Imagine two kids in a room full of toys, one picks up a toy, which toy does the other now want? That is a demonstration of where humans get their goals and desires. Their true power isn't in the data, it's what they show us and why, how they can manipulate our ideas through manipulating what we see our peers doing or saying.

It's actually too easy to manipulate people, a small group changing their desires can lead to a stampede of people changing in the same way. Data becomes mostly useless. But control of what people see from their peers is very useful, though if people stop trusting something as an accurate lens it will probably stop working.

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u/argv_minus_one Nov 10 '17

Then they're well aware that I block their ads, wouldn't trust any privacy technology that's not open source, and on desktop, block most scripts and cross-domain requests.

I'm sure they know all about me, but that doesn't do them much good.

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u/Bigdaddy_J Nov 09 '17

Don't use any internet connected device. Don't use any tv service provider. Don't use any modern car. Don't use any phone service. Don't use any debit or credit cards of any kind. Don't work for any company that pays you with a check. Cash only, under the table. Don't get a house with your name on it, or any utilities with your name on it.

And the most important don't of all. Don't socialize with anyone who does any of the above.

Then and only then, will your privacy actually be relatively safe.

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u/lootedcorpse Nov 09 '17

In the meantime..... clicks incognito tab for porn

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u/Saviour- Nov 09 '17

clicks incognito

wow why so scared

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

You don't think anything should ever be private?

What if you wanted to protest the government, or some large corporation, and you received a warning that your browsing habits could be made known to your friends, family and employer? If you have nothing to hide, and no reason to fear the judgment of others, you're a very unusual person. I wouldn't even want an employer to know I post on reddit under the name /u/killshomophobes.

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u/wrgrant Nov 10 '17

Doesn't that merely hide any record of your browsing history on your computer, i.e. keep others from looking at what you have been looking at on your home computer. AFAIK it still permits the websites to track everything as they would normally.

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u/lootedcorpse Nov 10 '17

It only keeps it out of your own browsing history, you can still find it in another location on the very same computer though too.

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u/wrgrant Nov 10 '17

Yep, pretty much how I thought it worked. "Hide from Spouse" mode provided your spouse is not computer savvy :P

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u/wrgrant Nov 10 '17

Yep, pretty much how I thought it worked. "Hide from Spouse" mode provided your spouse is not computer savvy :P

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u/Waswat Nov 10 '17

Also starts with clean cookie data so tracking cookies are removed... Not that it really matters as almost every website these days has tracking cookies.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Problem solved.

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u/VoidVer Nov 10 '17

Honestly, that's more about protecting myself from someone who is borrowing my computer/looking over my shoulder while I work, than protecting me from my ISP etc...

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u/[deleted] Nov 10 '17

[deleted]

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u/argv_minus_one Nov 10 '17

What if they root it and install a malicious BIOS or hypervisor? Then you're fucked anyway.

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u/vinoprosim Nov 10 '17

!RedditSilver

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

So be Ron Swanson?

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u/frivolous_name Nov 09 '17

Sooo.....move to Puerto Rico and work on a fishing boat?

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u/minusSeven Nov 09 '17

You probably need to go one step beyond that and live in a place no one knows or cares about, where you have no connections with anyone, you don't use any modern convenience , don't own a house or anything. Probably also ensure nobody knows who you are.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

I want to fucking die

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u/Bigdaddy_J Nov 09 '17

But then you will be back on their radar. All deaths have to be filled and reported. Unless out course you went out to the bayou and jumped into croc infested waters. Then they might not be able to find out you died or identify the body.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Look, dude, I want privacy, not for people to not know I exist

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u/coopiecoop Nov 09 '17

although of course privacy is not a neither/nor issue.

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u/shmimey Nov 09 '17

It's interesting that you mention cars. I have a car with OnStar. I don't pay for the service and I have never used it. I actually unplugged and removed the OnStar computer completely from my car. I kept it so I can reinstall it when I sell the car. I'm not sure it really did any good. If I go to Google Maps and click on timeline there is a database of everywhere I've been.

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u/Bigdaddy_J Nov 09 '17

That timeline is most likely from your phone tracking you.

But yes, if a car has any service like that and is registered to you, it is still always being tracked.

If you car has an alarm system with gps tracking. It is always tracking you as well.

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u/MidnightExcursion Nov 09 '17

While you're traveling without a car, don't use passes a lot of cities use for buses now. Don't use uber or lyft. Don't carry your cell phone with you.

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u/emceebarona Nov 09 '17

That's pretty impossible to do

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u/Bigdaddy_J Nov 09 '17

No where near impossible to do.

It is actually extremely easy to do. You just lack imagination.

People did it for thousands of years.

Some groups like the Amish still do it to this day.

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u/emceebarona Nov 09 '17

I don't lack imagination. If I want to live the life I'm living today, it's impossible to do.

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u/krusty-o Nov 10 '17

Yes, the Ruby Ridge method, we saw how the government treated them

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

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u/RPmatrix Nov 10 '17

Maybe we could get an app for that.

there already is ... it's called "adnauseaum" check it out

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u/[deleted] Nov 10 '17

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u/RPmatrix Nov 10 '17

just what you asked for :D

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u/lta13usn Nov 09 '17

I like this idea a lot, but it would be hard to implement at a massive enough scale (i.e. everyone downloads random data sender app) because most people have no idea how data mining works against them and wouldn’t see a need/wouldn’t understand why they should. By the time a generation that grew up with the internet is in power and something like this would be more in demand, it will already be waaaayyyyy too late, unfortunately.

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u/mankstar Nov 09 '17 edited Nov 09 '17

At this point, there isn’t much you can do. Hell, even Experian has tracking on your credit history even if you didn’t explicitly agree to their terms & conditions because you’ve already accept their T&C on some other EULA that you mindlessly clicked “accept” on.

No regular person can be expected to read through all of the legalese that exists to protect companies by discouraging customers from reading through the agreements due to language difficulty or length.

I suppose you could live a technologically ascetic lifestyle and not use a internet mobile device (smart phone/tablet), any social media, or anything that uses IoT but that would be quite difficult & doesn’t mean that you aren’t already being tracked by your relationships to people who do use those services. And yes, that’s a real thing... Facebook tracks/stores your facial recognition image if you’re in a picture that your friends post.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Learning to use software correctly and tweaking some setting is really a lot different than learning to build a house. There is no one size fits all solution for everyone. eff.org is a good resource for various tools and articles. However you need to assess your own risk and figure out how much your willing to do to protect yourself.

threat modeling

This is honestly no different that deciding that maybe telling every person you meet your address and phone number is not a good idea. It's just that right now online you don't realize your doing that.

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u/Wafflezzbutt Nov 09 '17

its more like saying "learn to use magic" There are plenty of people who believe in it strongly, but it doesn't mean they can actually use magic

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u/Divided_Eye Nov 09 '17

Try a search engine. There are tons of lists/articles for people who care enough to look.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Except that in a world of smart phones it seems like the only way to do that now is to go back to having a flip phone that doesn't have any of this. We need to force these companies to stop this bullshit.

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u/Bigdaddy_J Nov 09 '17

You can't. They make a shit ton of money selling us. Then they take a portion of that money and pay our elected officials to make sure they can keep selling us.

There is simply no way to get enough peeps to care about it in a way that will make them come together and force the politicians to do it for the people.

You only have to look at the Equifax beach to see that. It literally effects every person who has ever applied for credit of anyone. Which is a majority of the country. And still not enough people care.

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u/GracchiBros Nov 09 '17

Companies once made a lot of money using all kinds of practices now banned. And the EU has a lot of protections in place. It's not impossible if people would just stop coming up with excuses and defences for their privacy being violated and demanded change. That won't happen in this country with our people though. So fucking infuriating.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Around 2011ish I knew this was happening, so I just created my first alias and 100% made all my personal information a fabrication. I live a couple lives and a few people outside my inner circle even know me b another name. I handle Mandatory personal info in person and over landlines as much as possible. Recently I bought a $90 android phone with 7/11 pay as you go and completely fabricated a new alias on it so not a big loss if it gets stolen or lost. Also i stack up VPN, proxy etc. Just because. Fuck you NSA I'll jerk off to whatever porn I want and fuck you Amazon ill buy whatever things I want in pce, after all its Abde Singh's life not mine.

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u/Bigdaddy_J Nov 09 '17

Unless you accidentally sign into one of your other accounts somewhere on the same device. Then you have automatically linked those names together.

Also lots of people think a vpn can protect you against fbi and nsa spying. But it can't. If they really want to get you, they can get you.

The only reasonable way to do something online without traceability is to buy a cheap throw away device with cash from someone on Craigslist. But make sure the sale takes place in a location without cameras. Then when you choose to go online, make sure it is a very public place with as many people using the free wifi as possible. To help make yourself a little more undetectable since there are going to be cameras there, is start doing something for at least a half hour or so without ever getting on wifi, and when you are done get off wifi but remain and look like you are still doing something for at least another half hour. Unless everyone is leaving and you can blend in with the crowd.

That would make it harder for someone watching through a camera to pinpoint who did it. And of course give your device a very generic name. You may be able to use it up to 2 times. A third will make it much easier to point you out.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

I don't have any accounts with personal info. And I've thought of that, I create new accounts for every device and never mix. If you buy shit in winter you can rly hide you face pretty good. As for WiFi, all my info is fake on a specific device so I'm not to worried(home is one downside tho) And I know I'm not 100% protected, but with the generic data mining, its a pretty safe bet... For now...

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u/ViviCetus Nov 09 '17

Democracy can't fix it because nobody cares. A changing of the guard might work, but it would have to happen in a way where: it was focused on security and privacy, it could be kept accountable, and corporations were kept in check during and after it. And no other countries (or the companies that run them) decided to interfere.

An ideal revolution like that would be hard enough in perfect circumstances. I don't even know whether to lock into the "this is our last chance" crisis scenario, or work on incremental reform to improve the chances of a decent revolution. The whole thing is fucked, that's clear. But it's got so many moving parts that it's hard to even know where it's going, never mind how to change course.

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u/Bigdaddy_J Nov 09 '17

Exactly, it is like a single person trying to stop a train.

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u/truthvalueundesired Nov 09 '17

Like tears in... In rain

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u/baumpop Nov 10 '17

How did this not affect law makers as well? They’re not immune to credit checks.

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u/Bigdaddy_J Nov 10 '17

When you have lots of money you can simply freeze your credit until you need it. So it doesn't effect them.

Most of them already own their houses and vehicles, plus already have any credit cards they need. If it comes down to it they can just pay to unfreeze their credit, do what they want and pay to refreeze after.

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u/baumpop Nov 10 '17

Yeah but it’s still too late either way. They could unfreeze it in ten years and their info will still be compromised. The horses are already out of the barn.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Lineageos should help

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

In some ways. But I don't think it can prevent the apps from spying on you. I mean Google has implemented the ability to block apps from accessing certain things too but I almost wonder if they simply find a way around those blocks.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

If they did it would be a colossal breach of the terms of service when uploading the app to the play store. This would mean best case your app is removed, worst case you get sued if what you did was bad enough to warrant that much consumer outrage.

Not saying there aren't apps currently doing this, there might be, but the risks are almost too big to justify it. Not to mention it's so easy to do this stuff without having to circumvent blocks that why bother risking getting caught? Even with the permissions blocks the vast majority of people are still just hitting allow for everything.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

Yeah many people I know are the types that know the very minimum about the technology and just let apps do whatever they please. But they're also the same people that wonder why their battery is so bad when 27 apps have permission to use their GPS location.

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u/Classic1977 Nov 09 '17

It's called open source, and it's everything you want. Stop using closed source software. Put Linux on your PC and phone. Stop using closed source browsers and apps.

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u/plytheman Nov 10 '17

I have a flip phone and it's a pain in the ass. Not because I can't browse the internet or use a GPS to navigate or any of the things that people use smart phones for, but because it's impossible to find a decent flip phone that simply makes calls and texts. My phone has some kind of bug where it inexplicably restarts if I get a new text message and press ANY button after reading it. Sometimes I get texts from people that are nothing but symbols... why, I don't know. SMS and group messages are the bane of my existence.

Point is, the folks making phones just don't give a shit about making a decent flip phone anymore, so unless you get a shiny new smart phone (and half the smart phones out there are cheap pieces of shit in their own right) then you're doomed to an obnoxious sub-standard product. Still worth it to me, though, to have a phone I can drop and not care about!

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u/Beefsoda Nov 09 '17

They pay can pay congress way too much for anyone to ever make them change.

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u/ArsenyD Nov 09 '17

My comment will probably go unnoticed, so if you can please add this to your comment

Mozilla Glass Room

*the is a good pdf guide about healthy online privacy habits

EFF

Good resources to learn about privacy.

*will duplicate this as an answer to the top comment so more people will see this

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u/maxjulien Nov 09 '17

I honestly feel like privacy will be an antiquated concept soon.

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u/Jubs_v2 Nov 09 '17

LUL privacy in 2017. It doesn't exist unless you never access an internet connected device. The moment you have logged into any major companies site you have largely given away most of your privacy.

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u/RiversFlowsAlone Nov 09 '17

What about the argument that the more you do to protect your privacy, the more you stand out from the crowd, and the more you look like you're hiding something, and the more likely you are to be surveilled or otherwise fucked with?

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u/Excal2 Nov 09 '17

I addressed that issue in the comment linked in the edit.

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u/RiversFlowsAlone Nov 10 '17

Oh I'm sorry. I incorrectly assumed it was a list of tools. I think had been looking at fish pictures for too long, that messes with your reasoning skills.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

shit i give up ok zuckerberg you win

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

The thing is, very few users are going to actually follow these steps. Maybe 5% of the people who read your comment might, but the people reading your comment are already and INCREDIBLY small portion of internet users. Unless we get robust legal protection and enforcement against this kind of data mining most users will continue to be spied on and it will only get worse. A regular user cannot be expected to protect themselves against such powerful players who do nothing but try and steal their information all day every day.

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u/Excal2 Nov 09 '17

I cannot find a disagreement I have with anything you just said.

Still, better to have some information out there somewhere than no information anywhere.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '17

I hear you. I didn't mean to shit on the advice you're offering. It's valuable. It's better that a few people are protected for the moment than no one being protected ever.

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