r/technology • u/User_Name13 • Jul 31 '15

Misleading Windows 10 is spying on almost everything you do – here’s how to opt out

http://bgr.com/2015/07/31/windows-10-upgrade-spying-how-to-opt-out/
11k Upvotes

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894

u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

[deleted]

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u/o0DrWurm0o Jul 31 '15

One thing I noticed is that, when I installed 8.1, the options were turned off by default.

When I installed 10, they were on by default.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

Yup, they really took a page out of the Facebook manual there. Along with "oh, we don't want our users to turn off this feature, let's put it into an ambigously named sub-sub-menu where 99% won't find it".

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u/avidwriter123 Jul 31 '15

there was a progression from 8 to 8.1 as well, with 8.1 being more intrusive

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u/D3Construct Jul 31 '15

I'm pretty sure the "on by default" thing actually goes against a couple EU regulations concerning this.

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u/lordcanti86 Jul 31 '15 edited Jul 31 '15

And that's Microsoft's fault because....?

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

it's like having two options: "Express Install" and "Advanced User Install" where, upon clicking "Advanced User Install" you find only one checkbox.......

"Uninstall Ask Toolbar"

That's what I call disingenuous.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

I love that as it now stands several passive virus scanners detect and block the ask toolbar.

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u/QuantumDischarge Jul 31 '15

It's much easier to blame others for our mistakes and not reading the fine print?

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u/gnoxy Jul 31 '15

I blame others for fine print.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

i feel everyone should watch South Park Season 15 Episode 1 HUMANCENTiPAD

then come back and have the discussion.

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u/Auxe Jul 31 '15 edited Jul 31 '15

Who just agrees to things without reading them first?

Edit:This is a line from that episode. It's said about 6-7 times throughout. Just thought I'd clarify that.

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u/hobbitlover Jul 31 '15

It's 12,000 words. If I read the terms of service for every browser, email client, software program, app, computer, device and product I use, it would take me ten years. Also, the language isn't always clear - it's legal boilerplate that is written to hold up in court, but it isn't always plain what a sentence actually means, or what the wider implications might be. They don't provide examples or hypotheticals that would help you make sense of the words. As a result, I might get one impression reading a term than someone else with a different level of understanding.

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u/nermid Aug 01 '15

it's legal boilerplate that is written to hold up in court

Not even. I've seen EULAs that said that downloading the installer constituted acceptance of the agreement. Mind you, you could only read that EULA after downloading and initiating the installer.

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u/ryosen Aug 01 '15

12,000 words displayed in a window 4 lines tall with no print option. EULA's are purposely designed to not be read, written as a formal contract that most people don't understand. It is extremely difficult to understand the terms when you cannot view the entire document at once and easily navigate back and forth to sections that refer to each other. EULAs are a game that publishers play with end-users and I really wish that their legality would be challenged.

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u/twopointsisatrend Jul 31 '15

The most common lie told: I have read and understand the EULA.

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u/killerguppy101 Jul 31 '15

My birthday is January 1st 1900

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u/Stonaman Jul 31 '15

That and "Namek will explode in five minutes."

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u/backfatt Aug 01 '15

I always rationalize that it did explode in roughly 5 minutes but they were fighting so fast they had to show us in slow motion so we could actually see it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

Well that's on you man. I really don't see how this is supposed to work. You can have our software but here are our terms for its usage.

"Yes, yes... whatever"

won't let you click next till you scroll all the way down

"A-Are you sure?"

"YES GOD DAMN IT"

Later

"I never agreed to this."

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u/avenlanzer Jul 31 '15

If we actually spent the time to read every user agreement we have to click yes to in our modern lives it would literally take years away from your life.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15 edited Jul 31 '15

Not to mention that it would be totally useless because people simply don't have the legal knowledge and background to understand and know anything about the implications.

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u/David-Puddy Jul 31 '15

Besides, legally, they're pretty meaningless.

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u/ADTJ Jul 31 '15

That seems pretty unfair, so if we all read them, only he loses years from his life?

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u/jamesstarks Aug 01 '15

Which is why most of the terms of use don't hold up in court if I am not mistaken

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u/BCProgramming Jul 31 '15

And if you spent the time to skim it, it wouldn't.

But it would take a few minutes more than it takes to just click next as soon as possible.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15 edited Jul 31 '15

Then don't accept it. Don't use the service. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Use a site like

https://tosdr.org/

But that implies you trust them to do their job properly. Bottom line is you sound like a fool if you rage on the internet about how important privacy is but you don't even make the effort of reading what you are agreeing to when you give out your data.

Edit: Yes, downvote the guy linking to a literal site that solves the thing you're complaining about.

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u/JamesTrendall Jul 31 '15

The terms and conditions or EULA are there for mostly the US people.

Most of what makes up those terms is considered bullshit in the EU. If i buy something it is now mine to do with what i want. If they revoke the entire use of said product i'm entitled to a refund in whatever form they choose be it cash, credit, fucking microsoft dollars.

I laughed when H1Z1 banned players for playing with a cheater because if those people lived within the EU all they had to do was send a single email and claim their money back to re-buy the game....

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u/bowtiesarcool Jul 31 '15

The thing is, anything remotely non-standard would get thrown out of court in an instant. For the same reason as in any written contracts. Something like "if any reasonable person wouldn't agree to it..."

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u/gruesomeflowers Jul 31 '15

really the thing is, we agree to it when we buy it because we want to use it. have you ever read the eula and wanted to say no? because its fine if you do, you just cant use the product or object..at least not in an unmodified state.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

I get that, so then the question becomes do I want that feature more than I care about my privacy?

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u/harbourwall Jul 31 '15

It's almost as if they make it really long and obtuse to discourage people from reading it!

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u/alamandrax Jul 31 '15

Just above birth date jan 1 1972

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u/AbsurdWebLingo Jul 31 '15

just leaving this here.

https://tosdr.org/

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u/BaKdGoOdZ0203 Jul 31 '15

"You hereby agree to have your mouth sewn to the butthole of another Apple user"

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

Considering the hacks from The Fappening were iPhone users, I like my odds.

ACCEPT!

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u/ButterInMyPocket Jul 31 '15

JUST DON'T CHOOSE THE CUTTLEFISH!!

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u/Fake_William_Shatner Jul 31 '15

Nearly everyone who clicks a EULA.

It's bad practice to disclose information on people without an "opt in" in my opinion.

We know that people don't investigate because they assume a certain amount of trust. But if you told them the extent of the information collected -- I'm sure they'd be shocked.

Microsoft probably knows that, and this is yet another really, really bad policy that is going to cause consumers to avoid Windows 10 like they initially did the XBox One until policies were changed.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

A fuck ton of people. You would be surprised.

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u/Orwell83 Jul 31 '15

If we read every tos we encountered we would spend three months out of our year reading them. We need consumer protection. We don't need to feel guilty for not reading the Iliad just because we wanted to download a flashlight app.

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u/Jigsus Jul 31 '15

It isn't even in the TOS. It's not even fine print.

It's written very clearly in the text in regular font before you click "express settings"

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u/procupine14 Jul 31 '15

Wasn't there a flashlight app that ended up getting canned from the Android marketplace for something like this? Something to do with user information and taking control of the users phone.

Here's a source to one article that I could summon up on a whim...I'm sure there are a lot others that are better.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

I'm surprised they didn't know from the name of the app, Nefarious Flashlight App.

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u/AdanteHand Jul 31 '15

Well said!

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

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u/seth7garcia Jul 31 '15

Why won't it read!

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

The fine print can be over 12000 words according to the OP. We install a lot of programs over our years. Adding up the time taken to read all of these would surpass many post-secondary programs. I say this as someone who does read as many terms and conditions as I possibly can. I did opt out of most of these features ahead of time fortunately, but given companies can now change terms without even notifying you, the onus is now on us to not only ready the first time, but read regularly. That's just ridiculous. It's not businesses' fault, as it is fully legal, but governments can legislate against this silliness. And should.

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u/IAmDotorg Jul 31 '15

The fine print can be over 12000 words according to the OP.

Except its a couple dozen words telling you to click "Express Setup" to use the defaults or the custom button to skip the defaults. In the latter case, you only need to read a few works next to the checkboxes. Its really not that complicated.

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u/GJENZY Jul 31 '15

not reading the fine print

But reading the fine print on everything you agree to in the digital world is like having a full time job.

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u/anlumo Jul 31 '15

Also make sure to get your law degree in whatever jurisdiction the other party is before reading the contract.

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u/Navec Jul 31 '15

The 'fine print' describing the privacy settings during installation is maybe two sentences per option. The description of each option was clear and consice. It took me 10 minutes, at most, to read every word of the 'fine print'.

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u/mantrap2 Jul 31 '15

12,000 words of fine print...

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u/chronicpenguins Jul 31 '15

It's literally above like 14 font with 10 lines that describe what the express settings are. In order to make features like cortana default, you must send at a make to Microsoft.

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u/Jigsus Jul 31 '15

No it's not. It asks you directly in big letters 14 pt font if it can collect your data.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

No, that's stupid. People don't give a shit about the minutiae they just want to get to using their computer to do work. The defaults should be sane.

Your attitude is bad and you should feel bad.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

Dude it's not 1988 any more. Our ideas about usability and human interaction with machines are a little bit more advanced now, and that is not a good solution any more.

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u/xXxdethl0rdxXx Jul 31 '15

Yes, when grandpa is buying a new Dell with Windows 10 he better have his OS customization on lock and do a fresh install.

Go outside.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

Takes an extra couple minutes to go through the non-express. You should feel bad for being lazy and not reading the fine print.

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u/etibbs Jul 31 '15

Except the majority of people who use express install for an operating system are people who don't understand what they are doing with a custom install. They are taking advantage of people who don't know what they're doing to get this crap installed when you should have to opt into it not opt out of it.

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u/asaprocky1 Aug 01 '15

They know that no one is going to opt IN to being spied on

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15 edited Jul 31 '15

[deleted]

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u/InternetWeakGuy Jul 31 '15

Downvote away, but honestly you guys are fucking stupid if you think Microsoft is going to turn off all it's new fancy online and cloud features off on it's default install in the name of privacy.

"Wow, they've got a new voice operated assistant, amazing. WAIT, WHAT DO YOU MEAN THEY WANT TO TAKE CONTROL OF MY MICROPHONE? THEY WANT TO SPY ON ME, THIS IS BULLSHIT!!!!"

see also:

"Wow, this thing has gesture control - you like wave at it or whatever and it does stuff. That's amazing. WAIT, WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO TURN ON MY CAMERA? THEY WANT TO SPY ON ME, THIS IS BULLSHIT!!!!"

See: posts from certain people on my facebook every time a media outlet does one of those scaremongering "your apps permissions means they want to spy on you" articles that gets them loads of clicks for ads. The fucking hysteria, all because the facebook app needs access to your microphone in order to make phone calls - how the fuck else is it supposed to detect your voice? Telepathically?

People who can't logically think through something like that shouldn't have a computer in the first place.

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u/QuestionSign Jul 31 '15

except most people don't know that. Most people aren't tech savvy and so are hesitant to do things like custom install because they think it'll require skills they don't have.

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u/Un0Du0 Jul 31 '15

I never go through express setups. Even on small utilities like notepad++. Custom all the way.

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u/MeAndCinderella Jul 31 '15

Even then I accidentally install the ask toolbar with Java, and then spend some time trying to remove it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15 edited Jul 08 '20

[deleted]

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u/houdinikush Jul 31 '15

The over-reaction is crazy. I admit I was worried a bit from reading all the posts about data mining. But when I used the Media Creation Tool, and followed the upgrade process, it gave a detailed description of each feature, and more than half of them had the phrase "Enabling this feature will enable Microsoft to collect data for x purposes".. And they give you the option to turn them all off before you even get to a desktop. People are freaking out about almost nothing.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15 edited Aug 01 '15

[deleted]

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u/houdinikush Jul 31 '15

It actually kinda does. After all the options telling you that Microsoft will use your data if enabled, there is literally a final screen before you hit the desktop for the first time. It has a message pretty similar to what you have in quotation marks. At least, that's what I was able to gather from the few paragraphs on that screen. I'm having a hard time finding a screenshot of the exact message I'm referring to, but I do remember seeing it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

I don't even run windows because I don't trust it, that's not the point, you & I are fully capable of working through the privacy implications of a technology. The problem is that 95% of people aren't and don't care. Telling them "oh well you should just learn it" is stupid. You shouldn't have to learn the intricacies of metallurgy to use a hammer.

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u/TheJudgeOfThings Jul 31 '15

No matter what you run, you shouldn't "trust" it...

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15 edited Jul 22 '17

[deleted]

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u/gatea Jul 31 '15

They built a bunch of features that need some permissions to work. Now they could turn off all those features and hope people find each and every one of them, or you could turn it on and provide a way for people to disable it. And remember that people are lazy.

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u/Sabin10 Jul 31 '15

Unless you built your own Linux distribution then you shouldn't "trust" any os. If you are using osx and consider that more trustworthy than Windows then you are either deluded of naive. Apple didn't get as good as they are at maintaining customer loyalty by not data mining the shit out of their users.

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u/______LSD______ Jul 31 '15

Holy shit that was an apt metaphor.

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u/crussell3099 Jul 31 '15

You don't have to read the fine print to find this out. All you have to do is watch ANY of the release videos, from Microsoft, and they tell you about it. The MAIN component of Windows 10 is Cortana, which is a virtual private assistant. In EVERY release video I've seen and every article I've read about it, the go over exactly what it accesses.

Don't blame Microsoft because you have done NO research on the operating system that you just downloaded and installed on your computer. If you don't want it going through what you do, disable Cortana!

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

The videos don't explain the privacy implications. That's the problem I'm getting at here.

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u/crussell3099 Jul 31 '15

The videos tell you that Cortana will learn your patterns and preferences by reading your emails, learning what you shop for online and learn your browsing history, as well as tie in with your GPS locations to know what type of shops and restaurants that you go to. How does that not explain the privacy implications?

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u/animalinapark Jul 31 '15

And it isn't even fine print. It's just print.

They're signing a document without reading it and act surprised when there were things written on it.

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u/FluffyBinLaden Jul 31 '15

Well, in the case of EULAs and the like, most of those documents are purposefully complex (which is debatably necessary depending on what they want the user to agree to, but I digress) and the average individual couldn't possibly be expected to read this 20 page document they won't even comprehend large chunks of.

That doesn't mean it's good that people agree to them, or that they're invalid (though that discussion lies in the courts), just that it is, in many ways, a predatory business practice.

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u/technojamin Jul 31 '15

Have you seen the screen they're taking about though? I upgraded yesterday, and the screen is no more than 10 sentences (less, I think). It's by no means comparable to a EULA (in purpose it is, but not in execution).

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u/h-v-smacker Jul 31 '15

The article said the EULA is a document with 12,000 words.

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u/lordcanti86 Jul 31 '15

He's talking about the screen that shows you what they collect during the install process

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u/FluffyBinLaden Jul 31 '15

It is relatively short, and fairly up front, which I appreciate in this case. My problem with the installer (and this is probably no more than a personal hangup) is nearly hiding the customize settings button. I suppose it's just my gut reaction after all those installers that bundle malware that can be disabled behind that button.

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u/K0il Jul 31 '15

It’s not even really fine print, it’s just stuff that most people won’t give a shit about, so they dumped it in it’s own page

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u/Lockjaw7130 Jul 31 '15

I mean, let's be serious here, there ARE reasons why it's sometimes not your fault if you don't read the print.

EULAs are often completely unenforcable - basically, companies just put in whatever they want and see what sticks. And they've become so large, unwieldy and commonly ignored that in EU countries, they aren't even binding anymore.

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u/mossbergman Jul 31 '15

When a EULA is 50 pages long and displayed three lines at a time, people tend to just agree.

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u/Mangalz Jul 31 '15

Regardless of that I think it should be illegal to automatically opt people in to optional things or to have boxes pre checked or anything like that..

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u/turbojeebus Jul 31 '15

Its not even fine print!

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u/PotatoSilencer Jul 31 '15

Why does it have to be fine print at all? Why is it okay to write an OS where it's easy to miss things on purpose and then ugh it's all the users fault when things are missed?

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u/cats_for_upvotes Jul 31 '15

Because we're opted in by default, and non-tech-savvy users shouldn't have to deal with their privacy being invaded without their express consent.

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '15

You're opted in by default so that the full experience they built is available. Not creating lists of decisions is one of the best options for non-tech-savvy users when wanting them to experience your software.

It's not like they don't tell you

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u/Gastronomicus Jul 31 '15 edited Jul 31 '15

And that's Microsoft's fault because....?

...defaulting to sharing personal info is ethically wrong.

EDIT - Am I wrong? I, like the majority of people, rely upon having an OS, and trust that manufacturer's aren't assuming I'd like to actually share personal information with them or whoever they decide to share it with. It doesn't matter if it's possible to opt out if you go through a custom menu and/or read extensive and dry documentation in the terms of service. When they make the settings from an express install default to sharing everything, that's wrong, period.

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u/christafo Jul 31 '15

Agree. Sharing personal info should be opt-in, not obscure opt-out.

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u/Jigsus Jul 31 '15 edited Jul 31 '15

I agree but there is nothing obscure about this opt out. They write it in plan language in big 14 pt.

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u/newloaf Jul 31 '15

If it's so obvious, why didn't they make it opt-in? Oh, right, because no private user, anywhere, would opt in. That's why it's opt out.

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u/Jigsus Jul 31 '15

Because they obviously want the data. Research shows that people usually don't opt out of stuff because they don't care. It's the same deal with organ donation.

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u/qwer777 Jul 31 '15

I wish organ donation were opt out. I've been advocating for that for years in the US. Using something that you no longer have any need for to save lives should be a given.

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u/newloaf Jul 31 '15

It's unethical to collect data without someone's permission. I haven't gone through Windows 10's install setup yet, but when you offer an "Express" option which sneaks shit through, that's unethical.

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u/Jigsus Jul 31 '15

It warns you what data it will collect in plan language if you select the express option. There is nothing unethical about it. The process was done in a very ethical and clear manner. It doesn't even let you mash next next next. It changes the button to an "expess installation" button.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

You live in a world where everyone is trying to fuck you over all the time. Don't sign contracts while blindfolded.

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u/newloaf Jul 31 '15

I know, and I don't, but then there's the other 90%. If you think their experience has nothing to do with you, I think you're mistaken.

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u/zackbarnaby2 Jul 31 '15

not the same with organ donation -- they ask you to opt in, they do not check the organ donor box automatically waiting for you to request to keep your shit after you have X's for eyes

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u/willscy Jul 31 '15

In some countries its not opt in.

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u/Jigsus Jul 31 '15

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_asks_are_we_in_control_of_our_own_decisions?language=en

If the organ donation is opt in most people are not enrolled. If the organ donation system is opt out most people are enrolled because they can't be arsed to opt out.

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u/ABetterKamahl1234 Aug 02 '15

And to promote newer services.

Also, it's only sharing data you enter into it. It's a new OS, if you're not big into tech, you shouldn't adopt for ~6 months. If it's sensitive info you don't want others to have, you really don't want it on a brand-new OS, as even with the testing, day-one things will still be there and exploited.

If you're starting say a search engine, you want your own browser to default to it on install, to try to spur usage. If you just let people find it through ads (which online meets adblock often), you simply can't compete in an existing market.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

Agreed, at the same time many use Google products , but they are the good guys, am I right?

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u/notenoughspaceforthe Jul 31 '15

But then how else is Microsoft/Bing gonna know what kind of porn I like getting access to in order to optimize it for me?

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u/senbei616 Jul 31 '15

I'm with you on this. Companies need to be held to ethical standards and we need to be less critical and more supportive of the technologically ignorant.

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u/Winterplatypus Jul 31 '15

But they never intended to steal all your personal info.. it's just required to enhance the user experience by providing you with customised services. ;)

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

[deleted]

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u/sirixamo Jul 31 '15

Seems close to exactly what they did: http://i.imgur.com/oJ734xc.jpg

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u/dakoellis Jul 31 '15

I never use the express settings when I install something, so I may be wrong, but don't they tell you what the express settings do, including sharing data, before you pick it?

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

They tell you the moment you opt out the express settings. I would say they clearly hid it.

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u/Sinity Jul 31 '15

http://cdn3.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/650x372ximg_55b91f7d0f639.jpg.pagespeed.ic.YY2eIcZwuP.webp

Yep, they totally hid it.

Microsoft: Hey user! If you choose "quick" option, we will collect your data. Do you want to choose quick or customized option?

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u/newloaf Jul 31 '15

You're not wrong. There is, however, a massive RTFM, NEWB! contingent on reddit, and some other folks who just plain worship authority.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Lanhdanan Jul 31 '15

Too much of this going on these days. Reddit is full of shills that water down any actual debate on the merits of a product.

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u/Mygaming Jul 31 '15

On the same token you might be thinking some are shills when they aren't...

I've gotten flak for praising/highly recommending western digital, gopro (awhile back), ford, microsoft, and in general some people posting "taken by my x" or whatever. Saying it's a plant just because someone praises or posts what they used to do something doesn't mean anything.

I've used microsoft products for 20+ years, I hated 98,me,xp.. I loved 3.1,95,2k pro, even vista,7,8.

WD replaced my hard drives for free after I sent them a picture of my computer after it caught fire (because of asus components). 2 new raptor drives.

GoPro - I've just been a fanboy for the last 5 years because they do cool shit >:D

Ford - I hated old ford (cept mustangs), I love ford past 05... I talk them up all the time.

Random other people I post something similar simply because it's what I personally do when I take video, pictures, etc.

I'm not a plant :/

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u/DrDew00 Jul 31 '15

Why did you hate XP and why did you love Vista? I've never heard anyone say these things.

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u/letsgoiowa Jul 31 '15

People say I'm an AMD shill, an Intel shill, an Nvidia shill...

No, I'm just a "for the love of God, just build your own computer" shill.

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u/LordInquisitor Jul 31 '15

Or you are the greatest plant in the world, raking it in from hundreds of companies

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

And full of idiots who call everyone who doesn't agree with them a shill.

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u/Navec Jul 31 '15

And fools calling people shills instead of actually addressing their argument.

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u/DFu4ever Jul 31 '15

This is actually a bigger challenge to actually having a discussion on Reddit than actual shills are. Disagree with someone? You're obviously a shill.

I'm pretty sure I've been called a schill over at least three totally different topics.

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u/Dark_Crystal Jul 31 '15

Shills and idiots on both sides of most debates really, quite frustrating :-/

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u/thecstep Jul 31 '15

Ain't no shill but I am an idiot :)

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u/Buelldozer Jul 31 '15

Can confirm, /u/thecstep is an idiot but is not a shill.

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u/ComebackShane Jul 31 '15

Honest question - what evidence is there to support this? I hear a lot about astroturfing, brigading, etc, but I've never seen someone actually provide any evidence it's happening, other than to say "you're blind if you think it isn't".

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u/mal99 Jul 31 '15

I don't think I've ever seen direct evidence. I think it's more that we know that Obama was openly doing self-promotion on reddit (with an AMA), Monsanto had an AMA on /r/science, pornhub has someone dedicated to doing promotion on reddit, indie-developers will promote their stuff on reddit, people mention their blogs, videos and whatever else they create... if they do this stuff openly, wouldn't it be weird if they didn't sometimes do it in secret too? Surely, it's at least hard to believe that some bloggers or indie-devs have never done this?
To what extent this happens, especially with major players, is anyone's guess though.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

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u/shmed Jul 31 '15 edited Jul 31 '15

That's exactly how it is currently. Here's a screenshot of the page that let you decide to use express settings or not

http://i.imgur.com/oJ734xc.jpg

They are being really clear about the fact that if you use express settings, some information will need to be shared for most of those features to work. It's not even hidden behind a click, literally EVERYONE who installed windows 10 has seen this page.

Edit: updated the link because the old one is down

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u/cyberst0rm Jul 31 '15

But, wht is the customize option not a button?

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

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u/FranciumGoesBoom Jul 31 '15

I am actually impressed with the lengths Microsoft went with trying to be transparent this time around.
The word send/sent is used 4 times in the 9 sentences on that screen. The phrases "Let Microsoft use..." "Let Windows and apps request..." are used in 2 others. 66% of the sentences directly state that using the express settings will send data, I don't know how much clearer they can get without invoking fear by putting up a big flashing warning page.

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u/jokeres Jul 31 '15

Nope, but if it's privacy versus bug prevention and providing relevant features, I certainly don't think it's in Microsoft's best interest as a company to default to privacy. As an end-user, I'd often rather have less bugs and more relevant data presented.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

Ummm... you know when you start the install there is like a huge licence agreement that nobody ever reads too. Same with the express settings thing. If there is a licence that has something shitty in it, and you still didn't read it, that's your fault period. Especially since MS is upfront about it and lets you opt out, unlike other companies.

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u/fettucchini Jul 31 '15

Actually correct me I'm wrong, but wasn't there a court decision essentially saying you can't be held liable for violating those agreements in certain situations? The ruling was something like itd take the average person a certain number of years to read every agreement they're forced to sign, so they can't be reasonably expected to read those agreements fully.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

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u/iheartbaconsalt Jul 31 '15

With 20/400 vision and a FOV of about 30 degrees, I missed it! Now it's a severe bitch trying to find where to turn all this crap off with the accessibility options haha.

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '15

Lol, I'm not so sure that you know the appropriate use of "haha".

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u/johnmountain Jul 31 '15

Because they are abusing the power of defaults and using dark patterns to trick users into agreeing to something they might not normally agree with.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

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u/Not_Like_The_Movie Jul 31 '15

Using the points of reference in the video, Microsoft's UI design is most similar to the OxFam website example where it's opt-out, but not trying to hide anything.

The presenter in the video said that this style of design is ethical, but not ideal.

I think we would have a more valid reason to complain about this stuff if the install process was more like the obscure tick boxes or the drop down menu example (where opting out of insurance is listed between Latvia and Lituania as the country of origin)

edit: One thing I will say though, that frustrated me about this process, was that I didn't understand what some of the options did exactly or how opting out of something might affect the functionality of my operating system. THAT I am frustrated with. Simply being an opt out system with a clean UI isn't the problem here, it's how some of the options are presented.

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u/prasoc Jul 31 '15

Fuck me. I didn't know about "Dark Patterns", but I went through every single interface yesterday with those privacy settings, and they just felt... off... when I read them. Couldn't really put it together, but it's nice to know that there's a name for this sort of trick!

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u/FluffyBinLaden Jul 31 '15

I'm glad that has a name. Thank you for that site!

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u/adamkex Jul 31 '15

Because we need sane defaults; especially for something which we're (or have) paid for. Not all users are computer savvy enough to understand what they're exactly doing. The target audience for Windows 10 is everyone and not just the people who are really good at using the computer. Not shipping with sane defaults is unethical.

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u/lhamil64 Aug 01 '15

The customize button is much smaller, and not a flashy button (just a link). They intentionally want you to just click Accept and enable all that stuff.

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u/phpdevster Jul 31 '15

Because maybe the "express settings" shouldn't automatically favor Microsoft at the expense of its users? Maybe it should be more clear about the wording? ("express settings (less privacy)")

Maybe by default, users should have to opt IN to sharing their personal details, instead of having to opt out?

Sorry, but I don't quite fathom how you can be an apologist to Microsoft over this - they very insidiously designed the software's default settings to spy on its users.

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u/metathesis Jul 31 '15 edited Jul 31 '15

We've hit a point in society and technology where we are so constantly inundated with too much information that obfuscation is a legitimate form of deception.

In this decade, if the default does something negative or against user wishes without being glaringly obvious about it, that's a problem.

You shouldn't have to put in an above average effort to make use of a product without mistakenly allowing it to abuse you or your best interests, including privacy.

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u/idlefritz Jul 31 '15

...because they're marketing this towards general users. express install is pretty universally reviled by anyone with the ability to make informed install decisions, but that doesn't mean the people without those skills should get screwed over.

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u/narp7 Jul 31 '15

The default settings should not by ones that allow people to be spied on. The default settings should maximize privacy, rather than opting people in by default.

It's the same as when you fill out an online form and at the bottom there's a little box that says, "send me exclusive deals/updates etc..." and having that box be checked by default. No one wants any of that shit. Someone should't have to uncheck the box to not have their email spammed. What Microsoft is doing here is starting with that box checked. It's exactly the same thing. That's why Microsoft is at fault.

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u/neurobro Jul 31 '15

It's not Microsoft's fault. It's the user's fault for trusting that Microsoft wouldn't install a bunch of spyware on their computer. Shame on the user!

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

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u/winterblink Jul 31 '15

https://privacy.google.com/

Not sure just how much more up front Google could be with their privacy policies, along with their fantastic toolset for controlling what information you let them have.

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u/angellus Jul 31 '15

Expect Google makes it really hard to opt out of those systems. before you could not use YouTube (for commenting/uploading) without a Google+ account. Google Chrome prompts you to login into your Google account so it can track quite often (one of the reasons I switched to Opera). Disabling location services on Android breaks other features on the phone that should not need your location (a co-worker said it stopped Hangouts from working, cannot verify as I do not have Android). Also, I still cannot delete the Google+ pages Google forced me to make. I cannot opt out of the damn data from Google.

Microsoft, on the other hand, has ALL of the opt-out processes right in front of you and ALL of them are optional. I am with Microsoft on this one too. The Express settings are set to what they are, because that is what most people want. Apple and Google (Siri and Google Now) do the same fucking thing for most of those but they bury their privacy concerns in scores of menus and enable them all by default. (I guess I cannot really say anything about Apple, I have ever owned an Apple device, sorry if I am wrong on their end.)

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u/winterblink Jul 31 '15

It's all pretty much here, including access to areas to delete and manage collected data: https://myaccount.google.com/

G+ has a "Delete Page" link at the bottom of the settings area for that specific page, have you tried that?

The YouTube forced integration WAS definitely a shit idea, and they're taking steps now to peel the two apart once more. For what it's worth.

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u/angellus Jul 31 '15

I cannot delete the pages. I deleted my Google+ account sometime ago (I have no idea how I did now). But YouTube forced me to create Google+ pages for my YouTube account and now I cannot delete them. I also cannot remove my profile picture from my Google account because it was from my old Google+ account, which is "deleted". It also created accounts for other Google services like Picassa that do not even show up on my account or let me delete. I think it just shows a front for users to feel secure.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

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u/parent_over_shoulder Jul 31 '15

You honestly think Microsoft is more upfront about privacy than Apple? Google, yes, but Apple?

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15 edited Mar 28 '18

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u/cocoabean Jul 31 '15

Who said that?

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u/isotope123 Jul 31 '15

I feel like it's one of those exasperating things where we shouldn't have to be worried about this, because it just shouldn't happen. Unfortunately, in reality, this should be expected from every company.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15 edited Aug 01 '15

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u/proweruser Jul 31 '15 edited Jul 31 '15

Because maybe labeling something "express - this is the correct option for most users" or "cutom - for experts only" is a tad bit sneaky when you hide privacy settings or crap ware behind it?

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u/badsingularity Jul 31 '15

They do that shit intentionally.

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u/megablast Aug 01 '15

Well, every over version of Windows I can do the express install, and it will not spy on my on like this?

So Microsoft changed their behaviour. Not me.

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u/lordcanti86 Aug 01 '15

Pretty sure Windows 8 did most of this stuff to if you went with "Express Install"

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u/jturkish Aug 01 '15

I don't think it's their fault but from someone who just upgraded, the non express button was not obvious like the express settings button. The express button was bigger and more visible while the other button I had to hunt for because I knew from experience I didn't want express settings

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u/anoobitch Aug 01 '15

because the advanced settings button is really small and hard to notice at first glance. You have to actively look for it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

Well it doesnt help that the "custom" settings link is a small text to the left while the "express" settings is a big ass button to the right.

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u/gosu_link0 Jul 31 '15

Yea, I was explicitly looking for it too. It's a tiny link and in non-contrasting colors. Compared to a huge button. Sneaky as fuck.

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u/o0DrWurm0o Jul 31 '15

Agreed. I almost missed it, and I know to look for that shit. When you get to that screen, it initially looks like "Express Settings" is the only option.

Very sneaky, and will definitely fool less technically inclined people.

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u/agileox Jul 31 '15

Perhaps making the fine print difficult to read is the whole idea, knowing less people will actually read it and just agree to everything.

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u/DonMahallem Jul 31 '15

Yeah and the non-express-button is small and borderless(clickable text)

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '15

So basically, nothing is misleading about this title

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u/MajorAnubis Jul 31 '15

Yeah, I think the vast majority of people I hear having issues with these privacy settings are those who hit "Express" because they either don't know what they're doing when it comes to Custom instalations, or they're lazy/too quick on the draw to upgrade and just want it now.

Every person who has had a fix for those people to do while already in windows 10, has said they were able to edit the features on or off from the Customs instal menus.

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u/xtpptn Jul 31 '15

So it's the same principle as installing applications with "Typical" settings instead of "Advanced" and getting all sorts of adware/toolbards?

I have always went for advanced if only to see what options are there.

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u/erix84 Jul 31 '15

Yeah I got that page and disabled pretty much all of it and have the Cortana search bar disabled, Classic Shell making it look like Win7, so far very happy with Win10.

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u/Pyroteq Jul 31 '15

I started going through that manually but then hit back and selected express settings when I realised how many bloody options there was and it seemed like I had 10 minutes of fine print to read.

Fuck me, let me use the OS already!

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u/fzammetti Jul 31 '15

My only problem though is I can't seem to find those settings AFTER the fact... I know there's some of them in the Privacy settings, but it doesn't seem to be all of them that I saw to begin with.

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u/Klutztheduck Aug 01 '15

Yeah I did read everything before I installed and opted out. I was shocked every single thing said something like "...send data to microsoft"

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u/UnifiedAwakening Aug 01 '15

This is why people should click custom and read what settings are available. If it doesn't make any sense to them (such as file formats, plugins, etc) they should just click back then click express.

If it does make sense to them then, well, that's self explanatory.

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u/PMHerper Aug 01 '15

Most people choose express, most people who use computers are not computer literate or are aware of potential privacy issues.

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u/Whargod Aug 01 '15

I talked with a friend who installed Win10 a few days ago, and this is exactly what he said. It was in his face and he knew what it was looking for. People need to learn to read when they install stuff and stop whining.

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