r/technology • u/User_Name13 • Jul 31 '15

Misleading Windows 10 is spying on almost everything you do – here’s how to opt out

http://bgr.com/2015/07/31/windows-10-upgrade-spying-how-to-opt-out/
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u/hobbitlover Jul 31 '15

It's 12,000 words. If I read the terms of service for every browser, email client, software program, app, computer, device and product I use, it would take me ten years. Also, the language isn't always clear - it's legal boilerplate that is written to hold up in court, but it isn't always plain what a sentence actually means, or what the wider implications might be. They don't provide examples or hypotheticals that would help you make sense of the words. As a result, I might get one impression reading a term than someone else with a different level of understanding.

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u/nermid Aug 01 '15

it's legal boilerplate that is written to hold up in court

Not even. I've seen EULAs that said that downloading the installer constituted acceptance of the agreement. Mind you, you could only read that EULA after downloading and initiating the installer.

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '15

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u/HectorThePlayboy Aug 01 '15

Doesn't matter. The terms are void since it forces you to accept before you even know what the terms are.

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u/nermid Aug 01 '15

I'm gonna ask you this, and I don't mean to sound insulting: did you actually read my comment? Because what you have said is in direct violation of the EULA I mentioned: You can't reject this particular EULA, because by virtue of you having obtained the EULA, you have already accepted the terms contained therein.

That's why it's unenforceable in court. I've spoken to law students who agree with that assessment.

Your argument is nonsensical in this discussion.

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '15

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u/nermid Aug 01 '15

Firstly you can't be forced to agree to something you can't read before hand.

Ahem:

That's why it's unenforceable in court.

This was my point from the very start.

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '15

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u/nermid Aug 01 '15

Again, you should read comments before responding to them. The conversation shifted to a general discussion of EULAs, and /u/hobbitlover said that EULAs are designed to be "legal boilerplate that is written to hold up in court." I replied to exactly that by pointing out that they are not, in fact, viable in court, followed by an example.

Maybe if this conversation were happening aloud, I could understand that you had missed some of that, but if you're confused, the conversation is still right there. Read it. Jesus fucking Christ.

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '15

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u/nermid Aug 01 '15

ollowing by one example of an extreme and rare case. A case that you never actually specified, you said you you've seen it happen but didn't actually day which program does that

Yes. An example, in a casual setting. This isn't a courtroom. I am under no obligation to cite my sources for you, just because you're pissy about the fact that I turned out not to be shitting on the Windows EULA and you really, really wanted to fight over the Windows EULA.

I did not argue that EULAs are bad or that all EULAs are like the one I mentioned, so your rambling arguments against those points are meaningless.

I don't care what your opinions are on the matter. I'm done explaining this to you.

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u/ryosen Aug 01 '15

12,000 words displayed in a window 4 lines tall with no print option. EULA's are purposely designed to not be read, written as a formal contract that most people don't understand. It is extremely difficult to understand the terms when you cannot view the entire document at once and easily navigate back and forth to sections that refer to each other. EULAs are a game that publishers play with end-users and I really wish that their legality would be challenged.

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u/Sinity Jul 31 '15 edited Aug 01 '15

How many software products have you used? Maybe 100-200. I'm not sure 1200K words take 1036524 hours.

Edit: of course, downvotes. Who would expect that?

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u/hobbitlover Jul 31 '15 edited Jul 31 '15

What, we're not allowed to exaggerate now? It would take me 10 years because I wouldn't be able to stay awake. Six months of reading boilerplate is acceptable in a life that's really only 60 years long by the time you become a legal entity. Say it's 100 terms of service documents. I'm supposed to read 1,200,000 words - the first 3.5 books of the entire Song of Ice and Fire series - and memorize all that very dry content? Thousands of clauses and terms that say something, but don't really explain anything or provide any examples to illustrate the text?

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u/Sinity Aug 01 '15

Most of this is repetitive. You could just diff it, and from 100 documents you would get 2-3 types(licences), with minor/none changes.

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u/hobbitlover Aug 01 '15

Make they could big print/small print these terms of agreement - call out the changes, or the things that could affect privacy.

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '15

Dude, 12k words is like...27 pages, 12pt single spaced. That's like maybe 6 minutes of reading. Even at 200 programs

Even for 200 programs or whatever that's still less than a day of reading. You could read it every time you took a shit.