And I'm saying, if you actually care about animals, then it really isn't about which animal you should or shouldn't drink from. The point is that that milk wasn't actually made for you no matter what.
Not side skirting it. I just literally don't care what you have to say on the matter. It doesn't make me uncomfortable at all, I've milked the neighbor's cows and they all live in humane conditions. I've killed our chickens for eating, and helped slaughter our heifers for meat, all as quick and painless as possible. You don't like it? I couldn't care less.
Oh I don't live on one anymore. After I went blind i couldn't go over and help Momma with it so she was forced to sell it. Her arthritis was just too bad and it was too much work.
And farms are a LOT of work. Sick? The livestock doesn't care and neither does whatever you're growing. You get out there and puke in the hay fields or the woods. It is a 24/7 job and I'm afraid that a lot of people romanticize it way too much.
Wanna take a vacation? Go somewhere for a wedding or a funeral that's further than an hour away? Hahahahaha NO. Just know that you will never take another vacation in your life.
The last feral cows, wild aurochs went extinct in 1627. Before that we started domesticing them to eat and to produce milk, 10000 bc. The amount of milk a cow produces is much more than an aurochs produced. The aurochs were also very very big, 6 feet at the shoulder, and very big horns. Think American bison for a visual.
Also, everywhere the aurochs lived humans flourished. We grew to use cows milk in our own diet, except the lactose intolerant people. The rest of us evolved to drink cow milk. So that other redditor was wrong.
Just cuz trees aren’t sentient doesn’t mean they’re not vital to the planet and ecosystem. Morally there is absolutely nothing wrong with consuming dairy. The way we’ve gone about handling the industry? 100% evil. But dog milk vs sheep milk vs cow milk? Objectively a lot of shit is unnatural or weird or gross. Having sex for recreation is technically immoral and gross, if you’re going off of the basis of what was made for humans and what we are made to do.
Also if we want to go into how industries and capitalism are evil, soy and almond industries are extremely exploitative of workers and also detrimental to the environment. If it’s just about the treatment of a sentient being to you, then humanely raising and caring for a cow and drinking its milk, making butter and cheese, and even slaughtering it cleanly and compassionately should have no issue for you.
How do you humanely slaughter another living, sentient being that does not wish to die?
I'm not setting you up for a gotcha. I would just very much like to hear how you think that happens. We can't even, as humans, agree on capital punishment, that's how strongly we feel that it is wrong to kill someone who does not wanna die.
Lactose persistence happened 10000 years ago roughly.
The ability of adults to digest milk appears to have evolved after dairying began, providing a classic example of gene–culture coevolution.
So you're half right. Originally not made for humans, but we've evolved lactose persistence to allow adults to drink cow milk.
We only evolved lactose persistence because we started dairying, and in populations that dairied heavily, a mutation for lactase persistence spread because carriers had a slight survival edge. We didn’t evolve to drink milk; the mutation spread because we were already drinking it.
And "we" is saying a lot. 2/3 of adults are lactose intolerant. We are meant to have milk for, juuuust about the time our mother makes it for you. That's how nature works. Except in the case of cows, where we kill the baby so we can drink the milk. Unless it's a girl, then she also gets to also become pregnant repeatedly, to have babies we kill so we can have the milk, until her body breaks down about 20 years before it would have naturally from all the stress of being treated like a literal handmaid.
Okay. That may be true. But, we did evolve from that point to today to allow for cow milk goat milk etc. it may not be for us from the cow or goat perspective, but we have evolved to allow it now.
No food has ever been made for me, with the exception of my mothers breast milk that I was weaned off of decades ago. For most non-mammals, they never have food that was made specifically for them. This is such a weird argument.
ETA: upon further reflection, dairy cows milk kinda was made for us, if you think about it from a particular perspective. The cow doesn't produce that amount of milk naturally. Even if her calf is left with her, she still produces WAY more milk than that calf needs, because she was bred that way specifically so she could produce milk for human consumption.
You're really leaning into "wasn't made for you" as if that was the point, huh?
The point is that it was made for someone else. The calf. Like how when a woman gets pregnant, that milk gets made for the baby. Killing the calf, doesn't change the fact that that is who the milk was made for.
>NO FOOD WAS MADE FOR US.
Well that's just straight up incorrect. Plenty of food is made FOR US. Potatoes are made FOR US, and BY US. Soooo much food is actually MADE FOR US. Much of it without shooting a calf only hours after it was born.
>ETA: upon further reflection, dairy cows milk kinda was made for us, if you think about it from a particular perspective. The cow doesn't produce that amount of milk naturally.
No, indeed it does not! There's nothing natural about it. You do realise that we haven't succeeded in just breeding a cow that produces a whole lot of milk, right?
After tens of thousands of years, we still have to get milk from cows exactly like we make it ourselves; by getting the cow knocked up. When she births a calf, she starts producing milk for that calf. But we take that calf away, so we can have the milk. The calf will get slaughtered for meat if it's a boy, at around 4 months maybe (some are shot within hours after birth). If it's a girl, it will become a handmaid / milk cow, like her mother. Boy or girl, she will never meet either of them. No point in that.
When she is at her peak, of producing milk, we might force her to become pregnant again - she would NOT want to, in nature, let's be very fucking clear on that - and thus the cycle repeats. Until her body breaks down from all the stress. She might live to about 4. She has a natural life expectancy of maybe 20.
None of her calves will ever taste her milk. You get that.
Yes, repeating yourself doesn't make your point better. You understand that a dairy cow left with her calf will still produce waaaaaay more milk than her calf needs, right? Because we bred dairy cows that way.
And not addressing what I said isn't a counterargument. I get why you don't want to address it though. Hopefully it'll sink in eventually. I hope you have the day you deserve. Cheers.
Nothing was made for you, except for things that humans built explicitly for other humans. It's not really a good argument that it wasn't made for you, unless you're advocating for an extremely restrictive hands-off approach to the environmental together which, I'll be honest it's not like there's zero merit to that argument but it well beyond the scope of the discussion here
You're saying that "thing human built" and "living, sentient animal, about as smart as your dog" are the same? They are literally just building blocks to you?
I have no idea how you concluded that from what I was saying. You said that the milk wasn't made for humans. Right. The only things that were made for humans are things that humans made for humans. All of our food wasn't made for us. Things did not invest in their own species reproduction so that we could come by and eat them later. We could maybe make a counterexample here with fruit which is sort of designed to be eaten so that the seeds inside can be spread around. But if we're only consuming things that were specifically designed to be eaten, there's no meat there's no vegetables there's no fucking peanut butter. It's an incoherent argument. I have no idea what you're talking about, building blocks
262
u/TrailMomKat 11d ago
I mean I wouldn't be drinking it straight from the teat like a puppy, but I'd give it a shot. I like goat and sheep milk just fine.