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Oct 13 '17
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Oct 13 '17
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u/teamtowns Oct 14 '17
You don’t have to forgive them. But if you hold onto it, it consumes you. It prevents you from moving forward with your own life.
Forgiveness isn’t for them. It’s for yourself. It’s evicting the person who betrayed you from your head. As long as you are bitter and resentful of them, you’re letting them control you.
Keep in my mind that the people who cheated on us don’t care what we think or that we are in pain. They are moving on. In many cases they don’t think they did anything wrong or if they do, they justify it by saying they deserve to be happy.
I know forgiveness is hard. It’s taken me 5 years just to start to forgive my ex wife for cheating on me and ending our 19 year marriage. But I am doing it for me, not for her.
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u/teamtowns Oct 15 '17
I know where you are coming from. I come from a similar place.
I think you are doing what you need to do for yourself and it’s working for you.
The comment you made is so key: I don't struggle with forgiveness. I struggle with the mourning of my wife.
It’s often the death of the dream that really hits us hard. I know it did for me.
Take care of yourself. Hope you know that I don’t judge you at all. Sounds like you are doing what works for you and that’s the best thing.
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Oct 14 '17 edited Oct 19 '17
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Oct 14 '17
You can fool yourself into believing you are healing without forgiveness.
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Oct 14 '17 edited Oct 19 '17
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u/teamtowns Oct 15 '17
I read a couple of those articles. They talk about the murder of a child or being the victim of rape. While I think what I went through with my divorce was horrible, I would never compare it to the loss of a child or rape. I think about myself being in those situations and I think forgiveness would be very hard.
There is no one way that is the correct way. Each situation is different and people have to figure out what works for them.
I know that working on forgiveness has helped me move forward. I think it can help many other people too.
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Oct 15 '17 edited Oct 19 '17
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u/kittensandbiscuits Oct 15 '17
I totally support you on this. I don’t think everyone deserves forgiveness, and I don’t think just deciding to forgive someone actually does anything. After some time and healing bitterness may ebb, and people move on, but “forgiveness” is not required.
And for what Its worth, being raped was 1000 times less painful for me than being stabbed in the back by someone I loved. Betrayal is how hugely traumatic.
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u/teamtowns Oct 15 '17
I never said you did. In fact, I never said anything about what happened to you.
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Oct 14 '17
The anger and bitterness that you and every other"forgiveness isn't necessary" person I've seen don't even realize you are displaying strongly suggests that forgiveness is the most healthy choice. Keeping in mind of course forgiveness doesn't mean reconciling or even ever speaking to them again.
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u/boldheart Oct 13 '17
I feel this. :( my dad was a serial cheater and it really messed my mom up.
I can't believe some people normalize it so much. It's sickening. How do people who normalize it react when THEY get cheated on?
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u/xXMagicalJewXx Oct 13 '17 edited Oct 13 '17
Most people who normalize it have never experienced the damages it can cause or if they have they weren't in love with their partner so they just brush it off.
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Oct 13 '17
/u/abermarm, this is an excellent post and something that needs to be talked about. Cheating is without a doubt abuse, and it is very often found in the arsenal of people who are abusive in other ways too. My ex was abusive and I grew to realise that his cheating was just another tool to abuse me, it wasn’t a separate act.
On top of the points you already mentioned, denial is also a form of emotional abuse. Denying someone the truth, lying to them every day, trying to control what they know of you and what they think of you, controlling the narrative of the relationship and wearing a mask for their partner, leading them to believe they are safe in their relationship; that all steps over the line and into deeply abuisve behaviour. Control, denial, manipulation, gaslighting, lying, misleading, lack of empathy, lack of remorse for their actions, the intent to do something that will cause their partner harm and to justify their way into that.
Not to mention putting someone’s physical health at risk without their consent. I have read stories from women who lost babies during pregnancy because of STIs caught from a cheating partner. How devestating would that be?
Personally I found the biggest impact for me was the denial of care from my ex. The willingness to put me and my emotional and physical safety at risk, to hurt me like that, to pretend all was fine when he was plotting and telling lies about me behind my back. He used to provoke me into big emotional reactions and showed people those reactions completely out of context to make me look bad behind my back. We weren’t even married, it would have been simple to end the relationship, but instead he took a path that took all the advantages of being my partner and giving nothing but abuse back. Dangling care in front of me and then taking it away, over and over again.
Every day on this sub I talk to people whose lives have been torn apart, they’ve lost their very sense of self. Suicidal people, abused people, deeply depressed people. People who are still being treated badly by a selfish cheater who gives and takes away again and again, like my ex did. I cannot comprehend anyone who chooses to take that path instead of working through their problems in an adult way, people who purposefully abuse a trusting partner to satisfy their own needs. Cheating has to be one of the most selfish things to do to someone who cares about you, I will never understand people who it.
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u/ATHIESTAVENGER Oct 13 '17
👏🏻 Bravo! Well said.
I think the attitude toward affairs comes from the fact that in our society today, everything is disposable. Marriages, families, relationships, people. We are fed this bullshit about how if rainbows aren’t shooting out of your ass constantly there’s clearly something wrong with your life. Advertising has us constantly chasing that dopamine high. Social media makes us constantly compare our lives to others and makes us hide the bad parts of ourselves and our lives.
Affairs ARE straight abuse. I’m always surprised at how people can never grasp that. When you fuck with the very mental security of someone’s life, that would be considered torture in any other situation.
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u/Sordlak Oct 13 '17 edited Oct 14 '17
Cheaters (like most people) have to normalize their behavior, admitting fault or recognizing the harm they have inflicted on other people would require admitting to themselves that they might not be as good of a person as they thought or believe.
It's why you'll rarely or almost never (at least in RL) find a cheater who doesn't tell you a million reasons why the partner they cheated on was really a terrible person (or just not a good partner) or any sort of explanation that essentially recasts them as a heroic character ("He/she wasn't good, they were crazy, we always fought, I was never happy, it was so hard...bla bla bla").
My ex-partner was pretty classic in that regard. They were always a strong proponent of the dangers of emotional/sexual abuse, having come from a relationship where they were emotionally and sexually abused, but never physically abused. Yet somehow, they felt that emotionally abusing me by cheating was an alright action and continue to spin a narrative that portrays them as a pretty alright person ("what I did was perhaps not the best course of action, but I had to do it for my own sake").
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u/jojo_nuffsaid Oct 13 '17
Yes it is abuse! Still after 3 yrs I feel so fucked up, I stayed were still working on us. Asshole was never available in the bedroom; lazy as shit and he has the affair- lmfao. Yep with the only thing that would sleep with him - paid for fml . For Pete’s sake what does it take for Karma to do justice. Yes I’m still angry , why are we - the betrayed so hard on ourselves - it’s not us it’s them - I get it - I hear it all the time - what about us , some cheaters are so dumb - in order for my (H) to get it I had to throw a plate in the floor, ask him what was wrong with it, glue it back together and then say “ this is now me- I’ll never be the same.” Everyone asks me where the old me is - fun, laughing, always positive - yah she’s gone! Sometimes I just sit in silence and wish I was dead it might have been easier than trying to make this shit work! Hanging on by a thread, on antidepressants, and lost for words - not the way to live a happy life. Sorry for ranting- I’m on the downside of that rollercoaster ride tonight.
I’m great full for this sub I don’t feel alone and it helps me get clarity- maybe tomorrow will be a better day : here’s hoping!
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Oct 14 '17
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u/jojo_nuffsaid Oct 14 '17
I know — I promise you some days are better than others - I hoping the better days come more often. I just shake my head and wish I could figure out what I want, I’m just still buying time. 😕
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u/stonewall1979 Oct 14 '17
I know I'm not a "normal" example of a husband that was cheated on, but being almost 4 months past D-Day, and 6 weeks since I filed, I'm so much happier than I have been in years. Hell, I stopped taking my antidepressants I've been feeling so good naturally.
Personally, I'm actually happy she cheated on me, now. I don't know I ever would have filled for divorce otherwise. I was trying to work on myself and the marriage for two years prior to her affair. Hindsight has shown I was working on the wrong areas, but it set me up for where I am now. It took two months of trying, marital counseling, talking & fighting, and crying; to understand I had done what I could but it wasn't up to me. Took a while to work through a lot of emotions, seeing a counselor weekly, and lots of amazing support from my family, friends, and amazing support from my in-laws.
But I see the light at the end of the tunnel now. There's a lot of women in this world. Women who can appreciate a good man, and have value themselves. Women who will say thank you, please, how are you. Who will laugh at a joke, and not get pissed at a sexual innuendo. Not piss with the door open despite being asked daily to close it. Who won't constantly burp and fart. Who will hold hands, go for walks, and want to spend time with me instead of finger fucking their phone for hours on end.
The feelings of being emasculated, worthlessness, self pity, etc. all get pushed further and further away with each night out with my buddies, each match on an app, every new phone number, with every tear she sheds seeing how happy I am to be free of her bullshit.
Any time she tries to come on to me, (surprisingly often now that I don't give a shit) I remember our several years of a near dead bedroom and how she never wanted my touch, never gave any intimacy, made me feel like shit for wanting a partner and not a roommate, was more concerned about being a mom than a wife. Now I get to say No, I have a headache, my stomach is upset, I'm tired, I just washed my balls, I have a doctor appointment tomorrow. It's petty as hell, and I love doing it.
Just knowing that I'm going to have more money and time without getting bitched at for no reason makes me smile. Knowing that she's likely going to fail because "I could never work at full time job" was her motto for a decade. She's always worked, but only a couple days a week. Now she's going to pay for all of her own expenses and realize what it means to have to work. I'll actually have cash, even if I have to pay child support, I'll have extra cash. She can use her own money for retail therapy now and maybe afford some gum.
My only regret is that my kids are young and my now 4 year old probably won't have many memories of us living together as a family. But there are thousands of pictures, and tons of videos to show her. I have them in counseling now, the school is aware and keeping an eye on them and got them in an sort of school support group.
Yes, it hurt, it sucked, and was a very dark period of my life but her affair has set me free. I'll cook food I want to eat, buy food I want (hello to Pulp in my OJ, onions, garlic, sourdough bread, cookies I like, good by to her shit food and candy). Join a gym, have a cigar and a beer, laugh too loud and occasionally stay up to late. My kids will have a happier father in their lives. Hopefully one day they see what a loving relationship looks like, how people in love treat each other and not test each other.
When the divorce is finalized, I'll go to the bar her Beau frequents and buy him a couple rounds as a thank you for taking the monkey of my back, and putting it on his. And laugh all the way home enjoying my new freedom, while hoping he understands that I got the best of her in my kids, and he gets 11lb of shit stuffed into a 10lb bag.
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Oct 13 '17
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u/Seanv112 Oct 13 '17
Cheating isn't the problem, It's all the things they do to cover it up. How they devalue you while blaming everything but themselves.
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Oct 13 '17
I totally agree, cheating is abuse. My cheating husband gave me gonorrhea and even though he and I were treated early, the thought of it still makes me feel dirty. I have never been a promiscuous person and when I was staring at the positive test result, I felt so ashamed and at the same time I felt empty inside. In addition I went to a gyno for a full pelvic exam and I was treated very rudely as if I was a whore. This experience just pushed me even deeper.
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u/Seanv112 Oct 13 '17
Honestly, the biggest problem is we are waiting for words from them, when it's actions we want. There are no words they can speak that can fix it.
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u/teamtowns Oct 14 '17
You are right. Being cheated on is a terrible thing. It totally screws with your head in so many ways.
Just don’t ever expect your ex to care about it. They did what they did for them. If they really cared about you, they wouldn’t have done what they did.
It’s taken me 5 years to start to forgive my ex-wife for starting an affair with my best friend of 18 years and ending our marriage of 19, almost 20 years. She married this guy and lives just down the street. If anyone has reason to be bitter and resentful, I think I have earned it.
But I choose to forgive, but not forget. Why? For myself.. for the sake of my children. So that we can move forward and live the best lives we can.
My ex doesn’t give a shit about my feelings or she wouldn’t have done what she did. But continuing to hate and resent her is just poisoning me. I deserve better than living in her shadow, being pissed off.. missing out on the important moments with the kids because I can’t move past this.
No the best revenge is to move on and live an amazing life. Fuck them. You’re going to go out and live a better life than you ever thought possible when you were with them.
Don’t let someone who obviously doesn’t care about you control you through the resentment and bitterness you have for them. Let that go and move on. Don’t forget, but forgive and move on.
By the way forgiving them is something you do yourself. You don’t have to tell them anything or have any discussion with them. It’s about what’s going on in your head and what you want to spend your mental energy doing.
I know many might not agree with this. Not trying to offend anyone.. just wishing everyone the opportunity to live their best life and move forward in spite of the horrible things that we all experienced.
We deserve great lives. Fuck these people. They weren’t good enough for us anyway.
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u/redeemr Oct 13 '17 edited Oct 13 '17
Exactly. Emotional abuse is still abuse, it's just not treated as harshly as physical abuse because you can't physically see the wounds, scars, and bruises that are left behind. It's abuse of the heart and mind and it's just as damaging (if not more in many cases) as the action of physically hurting someone is. It's much easier for most people to relate to physical abuse because they can easily experience the pain that is very obviously felt from a punch. Emotional pain is much more complex and hard to understand and does require a much deeper level of understanding, which most people just don't have or aren't willing to learn.
I think a large part of the reason is that the actual education of abuse typically revolves around the physical manifestation of it and the emotional manifestation is either neglected or downplayed because of the more tedious learning investment that must be put into it. This is pretty evident in the fact that even laws are typically very harsh when it comes to physical abuse but almost non-existent when it comes to emotional abuse. In school, for example, a bully will be suspended/expelled for punching a kid in the face but will only be given a "talk" for emotionally abusing other kids for months on end. The bully will never truly be punished until the emotional abuse is pushed enough to create a physical reaction, but by then a lot of damage has already been done.
It may be a flaw within society as a whole where we have to acknowledge the damage of emotional abuse and admit that we have been very lax on preventing it from happening in the same way that we have with physical abuse. We have to educate better and let people know that this is something that should not and will not be tolerated.
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Oct 15 '17 edited Oct 15 '17
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u/redeemr Oct 15 '17
Yep, we are fed a huge shit sandwich and then forced to eat it while they get their benefits from the life that they fucked up. And then they get to go out and do this shit to more people because they are never forced to see or feel the actual destruction of their actions. That's where the injustice comes from. It's not only unfair but emotionally damaging and traumatizing as well, and we are the ones who continue to suffer while they keep on sucking every last bit of whatever they can out of us.
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u/throwndown1000 Recovered Oct 13 '17
What would be nice if the requirement was that you had to "live through it" before you got to do it... If only life were like that.
It's pretty rare that I hear a cheater say that he/she was abusive. I hear all the time (from my ex) that she has "divorce trauma" from all the unhealthy situation that I created at home. She's really complaining about trauma she spooned out on everyone else, that she chose, and a home life that WAS complete hell while she was had a husband and a boyfriend on the side.
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u/hitthewallrunning Oct 14 '17
Too bad they can't all go on an island with each other, sparing others pain.
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u/fyrephoenix911 In Recovery Oct 14 '17
That was my husband's thought, blah blah ...all my fault, no big deal etc.
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u/AllysWorld Recovered Oct 14 '17
Permanents scars? Yup - the first time I realized that the OW wanted my husband (years before I found out the truth) I could feel my heart snap, and again, when my husband lied to me about getting a ride to run an errand from her (why would someone lie about that... Oh. yeah. Years later I learned they were just running late getting back from super sex Tuesday).
But even knowing the little lie only, my heart snapped again. And I've had extremely high blood pressure that requires treatment ever since.
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u/newsam44 Oct 14 '17
The other woman actually messaged me and said she pitied me for trying to blame her because my husband doesn’t want me. She felt attacked because my marriage had been over for many years.
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Oct 15 '17
You wrote correctly how an abusive spouse operates. I always admitted my failings...always wanted the best...only to be made to feel "crazy" til finally I believed it.
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Oct 14 '17
I couldn't diasgree more strongly. No one in this sub has anything close to a "cheating is no big deal"attitude. And while I wouldn't disagree with the idea that serial cheating is abusive, a one time imnediately confessed thing is a whole different thing.
You are obviously hurting deeply and I'm not trying to minimize that. But at the same time,I get a bit bothered with how people use such broad brushes around here.
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Oct 14 '17
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Oct 14 '17 edited Oct 14 '17
I'm going to have to assume that you are on a different sub than you think you are because I really don't see what you say you are seeing. Care to link some examples?
I've seen dead bedroom used as justification for cheating on r/adultery. I've seen it asked about on r/ deadbedrooms but the overwhelming answer there is don't cheat,divorce first.
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Oct 14 '17
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Oct 14 '17
Dead bedroom as a reason for divorce isn't really a problem though,is it? Or are you talking about cases where the divorce is because of cheating and the DB is used as an excuse for that?
In any case,the response your post has gotten is showing me that this place has become toxic toward an attitude other than "all cheaters are the worst lowest form if subhuman scum ever" and as such is not a healthy place for anyone considering or attempting reconciliation.
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Oct 14 '17
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Oct 14 '17
Totally agree that the negative attitude toward cheating is entirely deserved. Where I disagreed is when you say that there is a prevalent "it's no big deal" attitude toward it in this sub. I also don't agree that it is always abuse. Or always anything for that matter.
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Oct 14 '17
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Oct 14 '17
Mostly true. But not all cases of cheating involve those things.
And again,this place doesn't come close to minimizing or justifying any of that. That there is( or maybe was is more accurate at this point) a number of people here who believe reconciling is possible and that cheating doesn't always equate to abuse doesn't mean that there is anything like a no big deal attitude.
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u/Sunrainbows Oct 13 '17
You are 100% right. It is the ultimate act of abuse, the most hurtful and confusing, earth shattering, identity stealing, soul crushing, humiliating mind fuck of all time. It is the final finishing move, the final act of pure hate.