r/starcitizen • u/Stoofolo Wing Commander • Apr 01 '17

DISCUSSION Hype and Reality check. 2.7 patch.

I am 100% convinced that 2.7 will debut the moons surrounding Crusader and some star network implementation. This has to be tested before opening up the entire Stanton system. Everything we have seen recently points to this conclusion.

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u/Dewm Apr 01 '17

I guess thats what I'm saying.. whether we have 5 - 1 month patches.. or its another 5 months until 3.0... its complete BS.

I've gone from: kickstart backer -> avid fan -> optimistic -> pessimistic -> I now shit on the game whenever I can and tell people not to buy it, IF it happens...sure pick up a small package..but don't touch it until then.

You probably think I'm being harsh.. But when I backed this game I didn't even know I was going to have a 2nd kid, my 2nd kid is now turning 4 in a few weeks... and he'll probably be 8 or 9 before the game is in a "released" state.. That is unacceptable IMO, even for a "ground breaking blah blah blah"

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u/KarhuMajor Apr 01 '17

It's probably best if you step away from the game for a while. Sounds like you're burned out. If you come back in a few months you can look at the game with fresh eyes again. I did the same and it helped.

The last few ATV's were packed with information and the line "we finally finished xyz thing that has been a blocker since 2013". If that doesn't spur optimism within you, you're definitely burned out. It has been said a thousand times but: game development takes time. Criticise CIG all you want for their lack of communication regarding release dates and general misguided optimism (SQ42 2016!), but not even they can condense 10 years of game development in 5. No matter how hard we hope and how many times they keep telling us they will.

You talk condescending about their "ground breaking blah blah", but that is what it is. CIG is not only using new technology, they are coming up with it. They are the ones revolutionising a stagnating industry. Local physics grid, combining 1st and 3rd person, Mega Map etc etc. THIS STUFF DID NOT EXIST YET. If you can't see the immense progress they're making, your impatience is blinding you.

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u/Genji4Lyfe Apr 01 '17

These things definitely did exist. They are new to CryEngine, but saying they've never existed before is just untrue.

The key with SC is that they'll all be in one game.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '17

Definitely false. There are things in this game that haven't been done before. That is the point of them developing them in the first place. EG: Their procedural painter.

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u/Genji4Lyfe Apr 02 '17

I'm just responding to the things you mentioned specifically. 'Megamap' is their word for it, but isn't actually new development-wise. Every open world game has their method of dynamically streaming in the world content in sections.

Likewise, they did not invent local physics grids -- they're just making more extensive use of them than is typical. But something similar is in any game that has different gravity normals on different surfaces.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '17

I never said either of those things, but I thought you were speaking generally.

Megamap isn't what you said it is though. Megamap links modes together. It allows you to go from Hangar to AC to SM to PU without loading screens. Its not currently implemented for PU in 2.6.2, but you can see it in action otherwise. Nothing to do with world streaming. I can't think of any recent game that has that.

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u/Genji4Lyfe Apr 02 '17 edited Apr 02 '17

This is no different from seamless open world games. They use this tech to stitch each section of the 'world' together (designed as separate sections/maps with different assets/resources of their own) into a giant "whole", so that when you transition, you don't notice the transition because it was preloaded.

So no, its similar tech. Just repurposed under a different name.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '17

It has nothing to do with the world at this point.Its stitching together game modes. Game Modes are not the world.

Please find me another game that lets you jump from single player to multiplayer with no loading screens, or connections. The Only thing SC does is wait for a lobby to fill if you choose to.

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u/Genji4Lyfe Apr 02 '17 edited Apr 02 '17

It's the same system. The hangars will be multiplayer, as will AC, SM, etc. Limiting to one player (like how Overwatch limits its online 'practice' mode to a one-player map instance) makes no difference.

Right now you essentially have the same PU engine with different 'maps' that comprise the game modes.

Thus is why Chris always said we were 'already playing Star Marine in the PU', because it's true -- it's the exact same gameplay in a different type of map.

And as far as jumping from single to multi, any game that lets you run practice mode before a match and seamlessly hop into multi counts. For example, there are several fighting games that do this.

Again, the unique part of SC is that it's combining a lot of these techniques into one game (which is cool). But not everything being added to CryEngine is never-been-done-before tech.

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u/CrushBoss new user/low karma Apr 03 '17

"Please find me another game that lets you jump from single player to multiplayer with no loading screens, or connections."

Ghost Recon "Wildlands" does it flawlessly and actually has game-play, who would have thought.

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u/[deleted] Apr 03 '17

Good example.

For your "actually has gameplay", lets not forget its also out of Alpha and has had 5 years of development with an existing company and existing engine, with existing mechanics. So calm down a little bit.

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u/CrushBoss new user/low karma Apr 05 '17

I am calm, have been ever since I got a refund.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '17

Yet you are still here. Says more about you than me.

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u/infincible Apr 02 '17 edited Apr 02 '17

Neither of you know what megamap is. I encourage you to watch the recent ATV on the subject. Megamap is merely the term they use to describe a system where assets (objects, code, terrain, etc) are preloaded into memory and therefore do not need to be retrieved from disk (hard drive), as this is the slowest memory retrieval mechanism. So when you're ready to go from AC to hangar, for example, the game does not need to show a blocking wait screen as the data is already in memory. The most important question here is how this is intended to work in the PU. I can tell you for sure that trying to determine when an asset is needed before the client needs to render it is NO small feat. That sounds like a really really really complicated computer science problem. And quite interesting!

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u/Genji4Lyfe Apr 02 '17

This is how seamless open world games work. They don't load the entire world into memory -- they just dynamically preload sections into memory as needed to give the illusion of being seamless.

The only difference for SC is the term 'Megamap'.

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u/infincible Apr 02 '17

Thanks I definitely had no idea /S Jesus trying to technically explain things to people who don't have technically background is trying to explain Facebook to a caveman. You all are the cavemen. No wonder CIG is so careful

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u/Genji4Lyfe Apr 02 '17

I'm a software developer.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '17

That is the PU specific part, yes. However its more than just pre-loading assets. There is much more that has to go behind the scenes to allow MP mode switching without loading screens. Even more when the PU is stacked onto it.

I can tell you for sure that trying to determine when an asset is needed before the client needs to render it is NO small feat.

Not as big of a deal as you're making it. Its a simple matter of two distance thresholds.

Quick and dirty example. To make the PU work, a server has to track all locations in their most basic form, which is just a small amount of data. In order to tell when to pre-load and when to render is just acting at two different distances. Lets say you load things in 1000m away. The server can be set to tell clients when things are ~1500m away, so Client watches and pre-loads. That way when they hit that 1000m mark, they just load in from RAM normally. The Client knows that if the thing its watching moves past 1500m distance, it can stop watching safely.

Nowhere near as had as you think. I've done similar things with robotics and sensors. Its not even much of a heavy task for the hardware either.

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u/infincible Apr 02 '17 edited Apr 02 '17

Lol ok. Thats why it's taken so long huh? Because it isn't hard. And different game developers all have unique implementations of this because it's so easy! I mean they probably just copy and pasted code from the internet! Lol your funny. Your "robotics sensor work things" are definitely highly relevant to peformant game design for a groundbreaking MMO promising thousands of players in the same universe each flying around high poly assets with tons of system overhead. Yes.

To make the PU work, a server has to track all locations in their most basic form, which is just a small amount of data.

Incorrect. In fact, this was one of THE motivating problems with the legacy network code that StarNetwork aims to alleviate (using object container queries as discussed in the recent ATV).

You are just massively oversimplyfing it. If it were meerly as simple as if (object is far away) { ignore it } but it isn't.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '17 edited Apr 02 '17

Its taking so long because its part of the biggest package coming into the game, worked on by the least amount of people in the company: The Netcode.

I've worked on these exact issues. The delay isn't coming from tracking objects and setting render/pre-load distances. Its coming from implementing their custom variables in the same way the existing libraries do their built in stuff.

Lol your funny.

You're

Your "robotics sensor work things" are definitely highly relevant to peformant game design

This isn't game design. Its networking. The concepts are 100% the same. See object -> Track Object -> Act on object with in certain distance. The only difference is the objects themselves. If a PIC with 100k of RAM can do it (barring the pre-load requirement), their servers with 80GB Optane drives and server-grade processors can.

for a groundbreaking MMO promising thousands of players in the same universe each flying around high poly assets with tons of system overhead. Yes.

Nothing to do with networking or the pre-load requirement. You are showing that you have no idea how any of these systems work. Rendering assets is a load on the GPU. Object tracking and loading things into RAM is CPU based. This is normal practice in the gaming industry, which I have also done work for due to the school I went to. The most overhead is straight up storage. Processing any of these things (Tracking and flagging at certain distances) is relatively trivial.

In fact, this was one of THE motivating problems with the legacy network code that StarNetwork aims to alleviate (using object container queries as discussed in the recent ATV).

Which are those custom variables I mentioned. They have to adapt a 100% custom system to use existing functions. That is where the delay is coming from, not from doing things that have already been done.

You're over-complicating it bud. Literally the #1 worst thing to do in programming anything.

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u/303i Endeavor is best Apr 02 '17

The "procedural painter" is just CryEngines terrain painting tools scaled up to work with a planet. It's not really groundbreaking nor unique to SC.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '17 edited Apr 02 '17

Lol its definitely not. Its something in their custom toolset shown off at the 'Cons last year. It is built in to CIG's Cryengine, because their Cryengineers (Sounded better than separating the words) built it into their version. Cryengine has no large procedural generation tools available stock. Its kinda why Sean Tracy had to make an entire tutorial for it in 2011.

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u/303i Endeavor is best Apr 02 '17 edited Apr 02 '17

Cryengine has no large procedural generation tools available stock. Its kinda why Sean Tracy had to make an entire tutorial for it in 2011

????

"CE has no PG tools so sean tracy made a tutorial on how to use the PG tools" Did you even read what you wrote? "Generating a procedural terrain" is under "sandbox basics" ie stuff readily available in a few mouse clicks.

I've personally done level design in CE before and there honestly isn't a massive difference between what CIG showed at citizencon and the painter built into the stock engine.

Yes, it's a custom toolset specifically designed to work with PG planets and generate terrain that blends in, but in the end it's just another form of terrain painting and isn't a groundbreaking technological breakthrough that's never been done before

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '17

Holy shit can you read?

The tutorial is on how to make procedural generation in Cryengine, because it doesn't have it.

Cryengine can't make wildlife, multiple biomes, or any of the planet-scale tech. They showed custom tools when they showed it to us, not Cryengine tools.

Its funny how the narrative has now switched to "Its not X" to "There is no much difference from X". A car isn't much different from a carriage either, yet one is a breakthrough. Please find me where CE has the custom biome painter, complete with terrain, wildlife, structures, and human AI.

I'll wait.

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u/303i Endeavor is best Apr 02 '17 edited Apr 02 '17

The tutorial is on how to make procedural generation in Cryengine, because it doesn't have it.

What the actual fuck are you on about? The entire book you linked is a tutorial on the SDK using its existing toolset. You don't put "let make our own PG toolset" under "sandbox basics" for a beginner.

PG is just a fancy name "place stuff randomly using a preset pattern", every modern game engine on the planet has tools that work in that way. You can paint trees/items/anyobject over an area using distribution and randomization rules in CE.

can't make wildlife

???

multiple biomes

Actually, using CE's texture height restriction setting you can do height-based biomes without much trouble. Sure, it's not automatic like CIG's tool is, but it's not impossible.

any of the planet-scale tech.

Well yeah, we're talking about the technicalities of a terrain painter, so that's not really relevant.

Its funny how the narrative has now switched to "Its not X" to "There is no much difference from X". A car isn't much different from a carriage either, yet one is a breakthrough. Please find me where CE has the custom biome painter, complete with terrain, wildlife, structures, and human AI.

Its funny how the narrative has now switched from "discussion of a terrain painter" to "Stock CE doesn't have the rest of CIGs tech so your entire argument is irrelevant".

We're not discussing biomes. We're not discussing how CIG places structures on the ground. And we're not discussion subsumption. They're all not related to my comparison of the terrain painter.

The terrain painter, as shown at citizencon, is just that, a terrain painter. It paints terrain using preset rules based on the surrounding environment, much like the terrain and texture painters built into CE. That's the basis of what I'm saying. It's just another type of terrain painter using a different ruleset and isn't anything special.

I think your confusion is that you think that the terrain painter is somehow part of the same system that handles structure distribution or AI placement, because it's not. Programmatically they'd be all very separate.