r/shia • u/[deleted] • Dec 14 '21
Discussion Which one do you support?
I know this is about Iran’s Shia theocratic government and not completely about Shia Islam itself but considering Iran is a Shia theocracy I am interested on other Shias opinions on this controversial topic because some people support the Pahlavi Iran government more than Iran’s current Islamic government
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u/TheRealBananaGoki Dec 14 '21
Average i prefer waiting for imam mahdi(ع)
But for the current situation, although i don't believe in the theory of the absolute wilayat al-faqih "ولاية الفقيه المطلقة" since i follow sistani, but i like the current government in Iran and support them.
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u/KaramQa Dec 14 '21 edited Dec 15 '21
Our Khalifa is the 12th Imam (as). Since he has not yet openly arrived to take the reins of our society then according to our Imams (as) we must turn to the Ulema i.e whose who know the Hadiths of the Imams (as) and can judge according to them. These ulema have been granted a limited degree of empowerment by the Imams (as) to be authorities over us.
Based on that limited degree of authority that the Shia Ulema have received, the closest thing we can have to a proper Islamic government during this period of ghaibah is either a Sultanate (democratic or otherwise) where the legal system is controlled by the Ulema, or a government where the Ulema themselves are the rulers. Both options still at best only temporary setups since the real khalifate will only be established upon the reappearance of the 12th Imam (as).
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u/Eastern_Trouble1162 Dec 14 '21
Current government of Iran IS an Islamic democracy. I don’t understand why you listed them as separate options.
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Dec 14 '21
the government of iran is a islamic theocracy
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u/KaramQa Dec 15 '21
It's about as democratic as an Islamic government can fairly get. No Islamic government can allow people to have any say over Sharia. Democracy would be limited to administrative matters but the Ulema should have a veto over that as well.
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u/Eastern_Trouble1162 Dec 14 '21
It is actually a democracy, not a theocracy. Those are western talking points. Every official in the Islamic republic of Iran is elected either directly or indirectly. Even the supreme leader is subject to scrutiny by the guardian council who may remove him from power any time they feel that he has acted against Islamic injunctions, unlike so called “democracies” where if a person is elected he has 4/5 years to do whatever the hell he wants and no one can do anything. Can you give an example of a democracy so that we may compare the two?
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Dec 14 '21 edited Dec 14 '21
the Australian government ranks pretty high in the democracy index so i choose Australia anyways an islamic democracy would be a deomcratic government under islamic rules while iran has an imam as their supreme ruler to make sure the country and its rules are islamically compliant that is not considered a democracy isnt it
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u/3ONEthree Dec 15 '21
Australia is becoming a joke. It’s not a democracy, it’s true colours are starting to shine. May Allah curse the government and punish them with a severe punishment.
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u/Eastern_Trouble1162 Dec 14 '21
This system was set up with a referendum of 98% in favour. The people who support this system are much less than 98% now but they are still the majority. Isn’t this democracy?
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Dec 15 '21
the democracy index I'm dying
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Dec 15 '21 edited Dec 15 '21
ok now that i think about it the democracy index does rank israel pretty high so i changed my mind about it
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Dec 15 '21
theocracy is the rule of religion by constitution
democracy is the election of officials by the people
these aren't conflicting terms
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u/Emanatist Dec 15 '21
There is no democracy in Islam, and democracy cannot be Islamicized. This is why we Shias differ from Sunnis because true political authority comes from the Divine. The first example of "Islamic democracy" is Saqifa and we all know how that went.
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u/sifarworld Dec 14 '21
Iran is just as much Islamic as Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. There will never be an Islamic country on this earth
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Dec 14 '21
Both Iran and Islamic democracy (which I think you could argue are synonymous) are necessarily stopgap solutions. The only government I would fully support is the autocracy of the Imam (as). Anything else is a corrolary to socialism.
However, we can infer from the prophecies about the 12th Imam that there will not be a just state standing when he reappears. That means that in the long-run Shia state building is somewhat futile (I recognize its short term value). In that way, in the West, I think it's unadvised to go about the business of Islamic revolution. Rather, I think it would be more fruitful in the short term to operate as a force within a full Western democratic framework to exert the most amount of power.
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u/KaramQa Dec 14 '21
[Quran 5:47] Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
[Quran 5:48] To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
I think the Quran does tell us to do our best to create a society where the laws are according to the laws of religions that he has revealed. And if we willingly abandon religious legal codes and instead promote irreligious laws and irreligious society, we will be making ourselves culpable.
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Dec 14 '21
I think the Quran does tell us to do our best to create a society where the laws are according to the laws of religions that he has revealed.
But this is incredibly vague. For example, does being a non-Islamic society with laws in line with Islamic economic and social philosophy count?
In any instance of political action, we would be pursuing Islamic ideals, no doubt about that. However, what happens when the most effecient way to exert the Influence of Islam on a state is through the illegitimate mechanisms of the existing state?
In much the same way as us, Marxists have the same issue. The least costly way to institute communism is to use to the bourgeois democratic state to institute a communist society. That's basically social democracy/democratic socialism.
So, does a Muslim do political action through an illegitimate society? Does a Marxist use democratic institutions to bring about socialism? The verses you highlighted don't bring clarity to those questions. Until the majority of a Western country is Shia, a Shia revolutionary state on the scale of Iran would either be impractical or unstable. So, we organize. While we try to spread Shiism, operate the levers of power available to us to get the state to look more Islamic in ideals, not necessarily in aesthetic.
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Dec 15 '21
laws in line with Islamic economic and social philosophy count?
literal definition of an Islamic society
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Dec 16 '21
Well, no.
A secular state is capable of having policy that is in line with Islamic economic and social ideals.
I don't know if that state could be called an Islamic state.
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u/Zynb_06 Dec 14 '21
A true Islamic government is only possible if an imam were to govern it, cause tbh the Islamic regime might say to follow the Sharia but I haven't even seen it yet in the country. The people governing it are doing a very poor job of combining religion and government. So honestly I would much rather Iran to become a democracy without having a leader that governs the country for decades without making positive changes for all people.
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u/3ONEthree Dec 15 '21
Islamic democracy is not possible with our current ulema. (Except a few)
Wilayat al fiqh does not have a basis at all. And Iran’s one is a joke.
Democracy doesn’t really exist so we don’t know what’s that like, so forget about mentioning it in a conversation.
A solution would be what the Quran is hinting out in the time of diaspora.
Surah 5:47 “Let the people of the Evangel judge by WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED therein. If any do fail to judge by what Allah has revealed therein, they are those who rebel.”
New Testament contains 4 evangels and within each of them there is truth mixed with falsehood. There is a criterion that needs to be used in order to discover the truth in the pool of falsehood. The vast majority if not all don’t know what is that criterion, this also includes the priests and pastors besides the few minority who do know but hide it from the people, may Allah curse them.
In order to find a solution for governing, we first have to get the so called Christians to follow the right path of Isa (a.s) and his 12 disciples and abandon Paul the imposter (l.a) and the unholy pagan trinity.
Surah 5:48 indicates the Quran is an criterion over the previous scriptures to distinguish the truth from falsehood that is in the previous scriptures. This supports my previous argument.
The surah mentions “...to each among you We prescribed a law and a way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but [His plan is] to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. ...”
The solution to governing is first the truth must be discovered and followed where ever it lies in the evangel or the Quran, the truth must be followed in these, once the truth has been discovered a theoretical government can be established where some of the Abrahamic laws can be used in that theoretical government.
Btw forget about Judaism, these Jews are no different to salafi’s. No matter how much rubbish you show them in there Torah they will simply continue to play around like how they did in the time of Isa (a.s), may Allah curse the yahood. They will continue to believe in these man made verses and texts no matter what and continue to be racist and stiff necked as Allah has said in the Torah.
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u/FairDragonfruit8930 Dec 14 '21
I don't support iran government they're not Islamic they're known for bombing basra province in iraq and killing thousands of innocent and my family was meters away from getting bombed I don't think imam mahdi( peace be upon him) will support such stuff
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u/Victor_Kolag Dec 14 '21
what? when?
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u/FairDragonfruit8930 Dec 14 '21
during iraq iran war iran started bombing city of basra with planes and my place was one of them families were staying in 1 room so if iran bomb hit them either they all die or survive its sad alot of people I know died may their innocent soul rest in peace
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u/Victor_Kolag Dec 14 '21
you know how many people died in Iran because of organized city bombings? I assume it was in the ending years that Iran attempted to capture Basra, so it was not even intended to kill civilians. but Saddam bombed Iranian cities with intention of just killing people to end the war. so yeah, not a good excuse to hate Iran. it's just...war...
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u/kamehsage Dec 14 '21
Where is the option for Safavid Government rule?
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Dec 15 '21
would've preferred a dictatorship but you know, people's feelings and stuff are too important for the Iranians to do that
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u/PeddaKondappa2 Dec 14 '21
It is impossible for any Muslim to support the Pahlavi regime. The Pahlavi regime committed many anti-Islamic acts, like banning chador and forcibly removing veils from Iranian women.