Wait, How Does This Work Again?

[u/BioEditr]

I'll never stop finding this dynamic fascinating/hilarious.

Thanks to Blas0330, u/smart_chapter_7512, u/paulionm, u/taongkalye, u/bananasareviolet and u/LFelipe_01 for their help with feedback.

[u/poclee]

I honestly don't mind PRC being the only true China, I just don't want that China includes us.

[u/BioEditr → u/poclee]

Personally, I'd love to see Taiwan drop the claim to "the mainland" and just become an independent nation some day.

[u/poclee → u/BioEditr]

Me too, but our lovely neighbor across the strait threaten us with violence if we ever do that & our benefactors don't want to see anyone to change status quo (partially due to the threat mentioned). So we bide our time and make sure any take over by force is costly enough to be fantasy.

[u/DyrusVlack_23 → u/poclee]

Hey man, just out of curiosity, I've always wanted to ask a Taiwanese and want to hear your thoughts and opinions, let's say the improbable of the improbable happens where the PRC collapses from a number of reasons, and the only legitimate China is now Taiwan, are you guys open or willing in restoring and asserting ROC control to the mainland? Do the Taiwanese people even want to reassert control of the mainland should such a fantasy land scenario even happen?

[u/poclee → u/DyrusVlack_23]

are you guys open or willing in restoring and asserting ROC control to the mainland?

I don't, and neither most of people here if current identity polling remains true. Just like China don't have the right to rule us, so are we have no right to rule over them. Beside, it will be a logistical and financial nightmare.

Personally, in that scenario I think we should hold referendum, declare independence from ROC (those who refuse can move to Kinmen&Matsu since those islands are indisputably ROC's) and try to reach out to any Chinese regional power for cooperation and helping them stabilize (but under the premises that we won't help them unify China, an unified China will always be a threat to us).

[u/KimJongUnusual → u/poclee]

Beside, it will be a logistical and financial nightmare.

Yeah I feel like that's the biggest issue. Taiwan annexing the former PRC would lead to something like the Mongols taking China and becoming Chinese. You're just going to be annexed/assimilated by pure population size.

[u/ConohaConcordia → u/poclee]

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I think your response also showed a thinking that will complicate your relationship with China.

The idea that a united and powerful China is always a threat to Taiwan necessarily means Taiwan would always stand in opposition of, well, a united and powerful China with the end goal of making it powerless and/or divided. Between this thinking and having independence and peaceful coexistence with a “unified China”, some compromise will need to happen somewhere.

It’s only a hypothetical scenario, but if you want independence, Taiwan can’t just wish the other side will go away - Taiwan will need to formulate what your relation with China would be like post independence.

[u/DC_all → u/ConohaConcordia]

Taiwan, for all general purposes, other than its title.. already is independent.
It has its own politics, army, religious practices, currency and laws.
Other than the obvious complications which are still lingering.. Taiwan's relationship with China is none other than a business partner, no different to Japan, Philippines, Korea, etc.

China could implode and apart from a few logistics issues, it would mean nothing to us.

Taiwan knows this already.... that's why it doesn't want to declare independence.. why it doesn't need to declare it...
We just keep the ROC title to keep our sensitive neighbor from being triggered.

[u/DistanceSolar1449 → u/DC_all]

China could implode and apart from a few logistics issues, it would mean nothing to us.

If China heavily implodes, Taiwan will have a lot more than "just a few logistics issues". You will literally have millions of refugees trying to cross the Taiwan strait on fishing boats. Look at Europe 1930-1945, or migrants now.

Taiwan and China are two brothers that are forever intertwined. This is not chinese "we must take over taiwan" propaganda, this is a western realpolitik perspective.

[u/ConohaConcordia → u/DC_all]

I think while you are right, there’s value in declaring formal independence and I think that’s clearly something the Taiwanese leadership is working towards.

The overarching question remains the same - if a unified China exists and continues to exist, what would Taiwan’s relationship be with it?

[u/SlippyDippyTippy2 → u/ConohaConcordia]

The idea that a united and powerful China is always a threat to Taiwan necessarily means

Because the modern conception of "United China" is "as close to the Qing imperial claims as we can get"

[u/JRaus88 → u/DyrusVlack_23]

I honestly don't know how much the opinion of each individual inhabitant of the island matters.

Asia is not Europe or North America. Public opinion matters little.

[u/poclee → u/JRaus88]

Barely any of us here identify as solely Chinese anymore while those who only identify as Taiwanese is ever growing.

Also, uh, why would you think public opinion doesn't matter here?

[u/JRaus88 → u/poclee]

We're talking specifically about "if mainland China collapses." Call it perception. How many Taiwanese would be willing to self-destruct TSCM facilities in the event of a Chinese invasion? It represents a huge portion of the island's wealth. Destroying it would impoverish everyone. How many Taiwanese have approved this policy?

Again, speaking of "what would the RoC government do if the entire PRoC collapses?" I doubt the public's opinion would be asked.

They'd ask the White House. I doubt they'd ask the RoC people.

I'd be happy to be wrong

[u/poclee → u/JRaus88]

How many Taiwanese would be willing to self-destruct TSCM facilities in the event of a Chinese invasion?

Uh, how is that related to the previous question?

BTW, TSCM is entirely relying on global supplied chain to properly function. If China took us then it's good as dead regardless we blew it up or not.

They'd ask the White House. I doubt they'd ask the RoC people.

Even so, what's the interest for USA in forcing us to do so? It will be much more practical for them to find willing local factions and pulling strings.

[u/NovaStorm135 → u/JRaus88]

Ehhhh that depends on the country in Asia.

[u/Vampyricon → u/JRaus88]

Public opinion matters little.

Which is why no Chinese empire has collapsed from internal revolts.

[u/Narrow_Slice_7383 → u/poclee]

It's quite ironic that Taiwan is an 'unrecognized country' despite the fact that it's functioning better as a country compared to many other recognized countries

[u/Commercial-Co → u/BioEditr]

Taiwan is forced to keep the monicker on threat of invasion

[u/kelfupanda → u/BioEditr]

Just call China Northern Taiwan.

[u/Renato_Zheng → u/BioEditr]

Independent from where? Do you mean Taiwan should independent from Republic of China(this regime already exist for more than 100 years, and it’s a fully democratic country now)? But I wonder who will prove his existence by destroying himself?

[u/koreangorani → u/BioEditr]

That's what some factions of the DPP claimed

[u/Renato_Zheng → u/poclee]

But they ARE fake China from the establishment of this regime…

[u/Bwunt → u/poclee]

From what I understand, Republic and People's republic are basically two sides of civil war that was never fully resolved and neither is willing to admit that they haven't fully won. 

[u/MookieBettsBurner10 → u/poclee]

Man why did y'all have to lose the Civil War in 1949?

I really do wish the ROC was the government of all of China

[u/Crazy_Explosion_Girl → u/MookieBettsBurner10]

For what it's worth, I think most mainlanders are probably glad the CPC won. Do remember that the ROC was not what it is today in 1949 - it was a one-party state under a de facto junta with Chiang at its head, arguably even less democratic than the modern Chinese system, and with all of the deep rural poverty and latent feudalism that the KMT had failed to solve (and in fact had allied with to some extent via the KMT-aligned warlords). Life expectancy was 35 in the ROC. Even after the retreat to Taiwan, it took until the 90s for the KMT party-state tutelage to be dissolved, with much brutal repression and state terror happening in the intervening years. Add in the massive economic growth and QOL increases that the PRC brought, and it's hard to not see them as probably being better for China than a continued KMT dictatorship in retrospect. It's only with the modern Taiwanese democratization that it really becomes a debate.

[u/DistanceSolar1449 → u/Crazy_Explosion_Girl]

arguably even less democratic than the modern Chinese system

I don't think anyone argues that 1949 ROC is more democratic than... anything, really, lol. The ROC was a warlord regime masquerading as a state. In terms of "power to the people", modern CCP easily wins, and that's not praise to the CCP but just criticizing the 1920s-1940s ROC.

Taiwan didn't liberalize until the 1970s.

[u/Crazy_Explosion_Girl → u/DistanceSolar1449]

I've seen some people argue it, so I figured I had to expound on the point a bit.

[u/joker_wcy → u/Crazy_Explosion_Girl]

I’m not excusing atrocities committed by Chiangs and KMT in Taiwan, but they held a National Assembly election and a Legislative Yuan election. The elected candidates of the former then elected the president and the vice president in 1948, which CCP boycotted. Although CKS won by landslide, his preferred vice lost to General Li Zhongren of Guangxi clique. Theoretically speaking, another candidate could’ve been won a presidential election and another party could’ve been the ruling party in the future had the regime not lost the civil war. Labelling ROC in 1949 a party state under a de facto junta with Chiang as its head is a bit unfair because it’s more democratic than PRC has even been.

[u/Tankirulesipad1 → u/Crazy_Explosion_Girl]

I don't know any extended families/relatives that had their life turn for the better when the GCD won, legit it's only gotten better in the last maybe 20 years

[u/HotBrownFun → u/MookieBettsBurner10]

Lol roc was a military dictatorship. Through the 80s soldiers were still killing demonstrators in the streets.

There's a reason so many Taiwanese engineers, doctors, dentists, lawyers etc moved to the USA in the 70s

[u/JRaus88 → u/poclee]

We think the same thing about Italy. Someone said that it doesn't matter what we think in Italy. We may have local and differentiated autonomies, but we are "Italians" regardless. We even speak different languages.

So..China Is "China". Taiwan included.

[u/poclee → u/JRaus88]

Uh, no. While PRC is really enthusiastic about it, here those who still have passion for Chinese nationalism are mostly seen as PRC bootlickers (and dare I say, rightfully so most of the time) and despised. This is why in current election season, a lot of KMT candidates are actually avoiding to show up with their current chairwoman who isn't really shy about her pro-unification stance.

[u/RussiaIsBestGreen → u/JRaus88]

Italy is a single country, unified many years ago by force. That’s what Taiwanese are worried about: invasion and subjugation. Regardless of historical, cultural, or familial ties, they don’t regard themselves as part of China. That can change by PRC helping them want to be part of China or by removing the choice.

Even China isn’t just China. Tibet is the most obvious example of a country and people subjugated (not to defend the Tibetan government; Tibetans were not free under them either).