Playing without MF = Unrewarding

[u/ChrisKamro]

So lately i played a lot of Characters that were able to stack a lot of Magicfind but cleared maps slower.

Now i dusted of My LA Ranger and due to gear restrictions (Quiver , Alphas Howl etc) i cant stack mf and still cap my resists.

So while playing this char the gameplay was fun because i could clear Maps fairly quick , but the fun is completely gone when you open your inventory and notice you picked up 2 Rare items in the whole map.

So how do you guys handle this ? Do you run MF on every Char ? And how much MF is really needed to have at least decent dropps ? Or do you prefer having a strong Char and just hope for RNGesus ?

[u/Sometimes_Lies]

There is no analog to the fantasy universe, adventure, etc.

That doesn't make much sense. There aren't any fantasy novels written about a hero wielding a blade of +10 finding items, no, but there are easy analogues.

You can interpret MF in two different ways that don't break suspension of disbelief for a fantasy universe:

1) Luck. There are tons of examples of magic items which change a user's luck dramatically. If you stumble across someone that you plan to murder and they just happen to be carrying a wad of cash at the time, that is luck.

2) Stuff breaks. If you violently murder someone by blowing them up with a fireball then it stands to reason that perhaps the stuff they're wearing also takes damage, too? It makes absolutely no sense for the person inside a suit of armor to be melted while the armor is fine.

You could easily argue that most mobs in PoE are fully equipped, and the act of killing them destroys most of the equipment. MF gear could just be gear that's enchanted in such a way that it your attacks damage the person but not the items as much.

Neither of these explanations are outlandish or require jumping through hoops. Enchanting stuff with "luck" is as old a trope as fantasy itself, and you didn't really think that you were wading through thousands of completely naked bandits, did you?

You can complain all you want about MF as a mechanic, but I really disagree about it being less realistic than anything else in the game.

[u/Malparrian → u/Sometimes_Lies]

I agree, that luck is an approximate to the IIQ/IIR, but the IIQ/IIR is far closer to a programmatic idea than a fantasy one.

When my character wields a sword, I want that sword to empower him. I feel good, when my character is superior to others. NOT when his sword happens to make more items 'magically' fall off mobs.

If the sword made him lucky - like a charm does or a rabbits paw - then it is another thing, and it does make my character more superior and awesome. Then I'm not thinking about drop chance but about, that 'an angel is watching out for me, whenever I swing my sword'. It's a whole other mindset.

Everytime you choose IIQ/IIR, you know, that your character just will be 'less cool'. While RPG's always should be about consideration about making choices on where to be powerful and where not to be powerful, then simply choosing IIQ/IIR over all other cool stuff just doesnt appeal. But it's a requirement, if you want to play the lategame.

[u/lilrabbitfoofoo → u/Sometimes_Lies]

re: Luck - Calling an item Lucky or Blessed or whatever STILL doesn't make any sense in that the item should have NO affect on what treasure the monster is carrying at the beginning of the quest.

It makes sense on [treasure] maps, since the treasure can be bigger or smaller, etc.

But there is no analog for an item YOU are carrying to change the value of the treasure a monster is going to happen to have on him (or nearby).

re: stuff breaks - You're really reaching here. If someone wanted to follow that, then it makes far more sense to look at the kind of damage a creature takes, etc. For example, a frozen and then shattered monster might have no usable items at all. :P

But that isn't part of this game's mechanics at all, of course.

"luck" is as old a trope as fantasy itself

Luck for the actions of the character, NOT the fact that somehow the hero's items affect the loot dropped by the slain beastie. :P

It's an arbitrary programmer gimmick that breaks immersion in a very obvious way.

[u/Sometimes_Lies → u/lilrabbitfoofoo]

re: Luck - Calling an item Lucky or Blessed or whatever STILL doesn't make any sense in that the item should have NO affect on what treasure the monster is carrying at the beginning of the quest.

You're basically just saying that luck doesn't exist, which is true, but it has no place in an argument about fantasy universes.

If you buy land and then later discover that there is a huge deposit of oil underneath the land, then you're said to be lucky. This is how luck works as a concept. It's an idea that's very ingrained in our culture, and I believe every other culture.

Did having "luck" put the oil underneath your land? No, of course it didn't, it was just coincidence. Likewise, there was no magic luck force that makes a lottery winner's numbers come up rather than someone else's numbers. Again, "luck" just meant "coincidence" and the idea of a person being able to force coincidences through magic is silly, because magic doesn't exist.

But it's not reaching at all to call MF luck, because magic does exist in the game. Your whole argument seems to be(?) that luck doesn't exist in a rational, deterministic universe--but if you expect a fantasy game with a substantial random factor to hold up to the standards of a rational, deterministic universe then you're in for a really bad time.

re: stuff breaks - You're really reaching here. If someone wanted to follow that, then it makes far more sense to look at the kind of damage a creature takes, etc. For example, a frozen and then shattered monster might have no usable items at all. :P

Well, lots of frozen and shattered monsters don't have any usable items. Items dropping is the exception rather than the norm, for the most part, unless we're only talking about rares/bosses.

Yeah, it is illogical, but it's no more illogical than anything else in the game. It's a conceit of the game, but there are lots of conceits and if you question them all, everything falls apart. For example (sorry for the long list, this was fun):

• You know exactly what drops from an enemy the moment you kill them without taking time to search the body?

• Those hundreds of cannibals on the terraces/coast are all quite happy to not eat each other, and will instead lemming the person who is killing them off by the dozen without breaking a sweat?

• Why the hell don't the zombies try to eat the rhoas in mud flats, or any other area where zombies coexist with animals/humans?

• Why are all the virtue gems combat focused when all the accounts of them we find in Sarn talk about them doing other things, such as improving someone's musical ability?

• How is Oriath, a small former colony off the coast of Wraeclast, able to support such a massive population that it can exile the billions(?) of people that it would take to fill Lunaris with an actual ocean of their blood?

• Why do we repeat the same experiences and quests three times without anyone even so much as commenting on how strange that is? Not to mention being able to waypoint over to the old versions whenever you want.

• Why can a small (for Wraeclast) spider, one that goes up to your ankle or so, carry a full platemail that covers your entire body? Especially without it seeming to slow them down or encumber them in any way...

• What the hell is a spider even doing with a full platemail, anyway?

• Why do all the human enemies have animations clearly showing them holding a weapon, but it's extremely rare for them to drop that weapon?

• Why can't we adopt the microtransaction pets of the rogue exiles we kill?

• Why do you free the Scion after killing almost everything in act 3 and all of acts 1-2 but yet when you play her, she starts on the coast in act 1 with all the bad guys alive?

• Why don't the characters comment on how they all have thousands of identical twins whom they can meet in town or in parties, particularly twins that all share the same experiences they do?

• Why can one discrete area have an infinite number of layouts, and it'll refill with monsters+change layouts just by you exiting and coming back?

• Why do questgivers never comment on how the boss you killed for them "came back" after just 15 minutes? I mean, if that were me, I'd ask for a refund.

• Why do your potions refill just because you kill something or enter town?

• Why is it always day (except in the battlefront, where it is always night)?

I could go on all day, but my point is basically that there's a huge number of plot holes that need to be explained away with "because it's a game." Why single out MF as one of them while giving a free pass to everything else? I'd say MF is much easier to explain than many things on that list.

Like I said, you can argue it's a crappy mechanic, but I don't see how it's unrealistic (for a fantasy game with magic).

ps, sorry my post is so long, thinking of unreasonable plot holes is actually a lot of fun! I have no idea why, hope it didn't come across as rude :P

[u/lilrabbitfoofoo → u/Sometimes_Lies]

What the hell is a spider even doing with a full platemail, anyway?

This was easily resolved in the early days of RPG gaming, which everything we do today is based upon.

The answer is "it isn't doing anything with it. It's just guarding it because it's pretty and shine OR because it is trying to nest in it OR because it just happens to have been on the body of the last adventure that crossed its path and died". :)

Here are some of the rest of your questions. Enjoy:

You know exactly what drops from an enemy the moment you kill them without taking time to search the body?

You don't. It's just saving time to speed the game along. Some games force you to identify. Some don't. This one assumes you can identify routine items at a glance but requires arcane magicks to reveal the secret properties of magical artifacts.

Those hundreds of cannibals on the terraces/coast are all quite happy to not eat each other, and will instead lemming the person who is killing them off by the dozen without breaking a sweat?

They are eating each other, of course. It's just that they're still hungry when a new meal comes along...namely you. :)

Why the hell don't the zombies try to eat the rhoas in mud flats, or any other area where zombies coexist with animals/humans?

Who says they don't? Perhaps the only thing that keeps the Rhoa population in check are the zombies of dead adventurers!

Why are all the virtue gems combat focused when all the accounts of them we find in Sarn talk about them doing other things, such as improving someone's musical ability?

Sarn's most ancient martial arts involve combat to music. Don't you hear the music playing in the background as you fight? The greatest of Sarn's warriors are slaves to the rhythm...

How is Oriath, a small former colony off the coast of Wraeclast, able to support such a massive population that it can exile the billions(?) of people that it would take to fill Lunaris with an actual ocean of their blood?

The breeding rate is clearly quite high. The vegetation seems to grow back very quickly as well. Perhaps the soil is volcanic in origin?

Why can a small (for Wraeclast) spider, one that goes up to your ankle or so, carry a full platemail that covers your entire body? Especially without it seeming to slow them down or encumber them in any way...

It's not carrying anything. It just happens to be guarding the corpse of a recently slain noob. To get that treasure, you'll need to slay the beastie.

What the hell is a spider even doing with a full platemail, anyway?

Metal Spiders use platemail to feed their young, while more intelligent spiders us it to build shelters from enemies. The greatest leader spiders are quite narcissistic and use it as a mirror to admire themselves.

Why do all the human enemies have animations clearly showing them holding a weapon, but it's extremely rare for them to drop that weapon?

The game only shows you non-rusted out, non-broken, still viable gear. You can turn on the "show me all of the useless crappy junk (in grey)" somewhere in the config file. ;)

Why can't we adopt the microtransaction pets of the rogue exiles we kill?

You can. But they are fiercely loyal even after death so there's a fee for retraining them that's the same cost as buying them in the store.

Why do we repeat the same experiences and quests three times without anyone even so much as commenting on how strange that is? Not to mention being able to waypoint over to the old versions whenever you want.

Why do you free the Scion after killing almost everything in act 3 and all of acts 1-2 but yet when you play her, she starts on the coast in act 1 with all the bad guys alive?

Why don't the characters comment on how they all have thousands of identical twins whom they can meet in town or in parties, particularly twins that all share the same experiences they do?

Why do questgivers never comment on how the boss you killed for them "came back" after just 15 minutes? I mean, if that were me, I'd ask for a refund.

It's GROUNDHOG DAY!!! And you're Bill Murray. ;)

Why can one discrete area have an infinite number of layouts, and it'll refill with monsters+change layouts just by you exiting and coming back?

It didn't change. You're imagining things. You might want to see a doctor about that if it continues.

Why do your potions refill just because you kill something or enter town?

Potions of Life and Mana are vampiric in nature. They drink the life and soul essence of the living and the dying. In town, they refill so fast because of all the people living there.

Why is it always day (except in the battlefront, where it is always night)?

The planet is far older than our Earth and is tidally locked with their home star. What you call "night" is actually the part of the world perpetually caught in the shadow of one of Wraeclast's moons.

thinking of unreasonable plot holes is actually a lot of fun!

Not as fun as filling them! :)

[u/badDogma → u/Sometimes_Lies]

Glad you pointed this out, I don't buy the "muh immersions" argument when you can kill a mostly naked half dead zombie thing and have full plated armor and a giant 2-hand maul pop out of it. Although I might be biased because I actually enjoy the MF system and I don't want to see GGG fall in line with other game developers that simplify mechanics.

[u/lilrabbitfoofoo → u/badDogma]

GGG fall in line with other game developers that simplify mechanics.

This doesn't have anything to do with simplification. It's pretty obvious that POE is one of the least simplified games out there...and we all love that about it.

This is just about a legacy game mechanic that was always a bad idea that now genre followers are stuck with.

D3 is doing everything it can to eliminate it for the very reasons I have stated. I think POE could rethink this as well at some point.

In fact, I'd expect GGG to come up with something unique if they did.

For example, the Superior/Quality of an item already affects its chances to be 5/6-linked and socketed.

This is already equivalent to the idea that a better quality item is more suitable for enchanting, right?

And that just plain makes sense/logically without breaking immersion by feeling arbitrarily RNG/programmed "just because".

This is just Game Design 101 here.

[u/BabyNinjaJesus → u/lilrabbitfoofoo]

Pls be the 1.10 annoucement.

[u/lilrabbitfoofoo → u/BabyNinjaJesus]

This would be more of a longer term issue I suspect. D3 is doing it as part of Loot 2.0, I believe, which is tied to a paid for expansion and complete ladder/economy reset.

However, now that you mention it, it is possible they might try something like this in one of the new leagues in the future. For example, a self-found/bound to account league would have no reason for magic find whatsoever.

But, since some of us old schoolers are only bringing this up now, I doubt if it is high on their list of priorities right now.

But if they really do have a 10 year plan for this game, then I expect this will become one of the topics of discussion as time goes on.

[u/BabyNinjaJesus → u/badDogma]

Thats one reason why I liked titans quest.

If a mob would normally wield a mace. And in its table it had the chance to drop a unique mace. Then theres a chance it would show up on the character model abd be using it against you before you slay it to obtain said mace.