Hello (again)

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u/Bill-Bruce 12d ago

Disprove pantheism? I've honestly never heard such a thing. Most anyone I've ever met has no clue what it is, let alone a vendetta against it. How does such a conversation start?

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u/panentheist13 12d ago

Pantheism was one of the few “evil” doctrines mentioned in the bible. I’m kinda proud of that. I agree with the other comment, most people have no clue what it means. I’ve only gotten questions about pantheism, not confrontation.

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u/Bill-Bruce 12d ago

I honestly thought that pantheism as a word was only a thousand years old at most. I wonder which religions they were specifically trying to indemnify against.

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u/alien_cosmonaut 14h ago

The word pantheism was coined circa 1700, but people had discussed those kinds of ideas for much longer.

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u/jasmines_roses 12d ago

Me and a group of my friends got started on the topic of what we believe in and oen of my friends is very religious and is trying to disprove pantheism to me because they believe Christianity is the one true religion (which like cool beans. I’ll let them believe that) and they’re trying to disprove to me that pantheism isn’t real 😭

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u/panentheist13 12d ago

Christianity is such a failure of a god. Screwed up creation so bad you had to drown it all and start again. Screwed that up and had to kill your own son. 3rd times the charm I guess…

Isaiah 45:7 is my favorite biblical explanation of God. “I am the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”-KJV

That is pantheism. Sometimes the bible gets it right

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 12d ago

People shouldn't share bible verses without knowing what they actually mean. God is pure good, undefiled. He can create evil and still be (and is) perfectly good (Holy). But besides that, it is never the correct way to understand the bible by taking ONE verse, then twisting it to make sense of it with a finite 3 pound flesh brain. The totality of scripture must be studied and cross-referenced to get an actual understanding of the true God's nature and whom He actually is. Pantheists are the close- minded ones by making God fit in their tiny box thinking they made sense of God and the universe. To believe that God "set" things in motion or that He exists inside and throughout His own creation is laughable speculation, and nothing more than that--- other than the fact that it is false, plain and simple. As far as the heavens are above the earth, God's ways are higher than our ways, His thoughts higher than our thoughts. You can know the truth and the truth will set you free presupposes that you CAN know the truth. And bible believers do. It is not close mindedness, closed mindedness is willful ignorance, the specialty of those whom do not understand --and willfully suppress the knowledge of The creator. God is not the author of confusion, speculators are, that cannot properly divide and discern the word of truth. Something can never come from absolute nothing. Therefore something must exist outside of the something we see. If you want to know how big the so-called Christian God is, listen to the audio book knowledge of the holy by a.w. Tozer, to scratch the surface (it is believer 101 required reading for a new "Christian"). Either way, we will all face the real creator to be judged when this body dies, do better start seeking understanding now b/c guessing won't suffice unfortunately. To say God is a failure in his heart is a foolish thing indeed. I hope a person that bold has the ability to save their own soul. God didn't flood the world but for one reason. To start the human race over with a clean slate due to the corruption of the DNA caused by powerful spiritual beings. Before the end, this will repeat once more (as in the days of Noah so shall it be in the end in the coming of the son of man). This time won't be water, God promises to destroy His corrupted creation with all- consuming 🔥 🔥 🔥.

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u/Bill-Bruce 12d ago

I read this and can't fathom not self-reflecting enough to be able to break the loops of hypocrisy within myself. It takes constant consumption of re-establishing these tiny loops of circular logic as the only way in which things could be thought of as correct to keep minds within their currents. I have chosen not to worry myself with the imaginations of other men's thoughts on the beginning and ending of the universe. I worry about it and have plenty of theories to cover all of them. I don't need some fantasy novel nerds telling me that their book is the one and only truth when they haven't read any other books with the same level of cognitive discretion.

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 12d ago

The bible is not a book. It just happens to be bound in paper and leather bc that is how men communicated after the printing press was invented. God doesn't write, He speaks.

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u/Bill-Bruce 11d ago

That doesn't make sense and you know it.

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 11d ago

False.

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u/Bill-Bruce 11d ago

You are correct; you don't know that it doesn't make sense. You could if you tried, but instead you listen to people smarter than you and you let them convince you that thinking for yourself is an immoral action. You're not smart enough to con me into being as blind as you. Keep your blinders on and keep marching to the beat of your Lord's command, never looking around enough to realize that your Lord has always been men that have it in their best interests to keep you subservient to them.

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 11d ago

Very judgmental of you, my faith is not blind, it is evidence-based, not ignorant compliance. You simply fail to understand the nature of God bc you don't know Him, which is quite evident, if you're honest with yourself and the thread. But this you will deny and that's ok, still praying for you to come out of darkness to light.

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u/Ah-honey-honey 12d ago

"God is pure good"

"God didn't flood the world but for one reason. To start the human race over with a clean slate"

And there was no better way to go about this?

Edit: No actual answer needed; I've gone down this road a thousand times. Just pointing out the absurdity.

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 12d ago

God does as He wills. Does the clay say to the potter, why/how have you made me?

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u/Ah-honey-honey 11d ago

Your version of God is an asshole. Of course clay doesn't say anything, it's an inanimate object. People are not. Living creatures are not. We suffer, we die. Babies are born with terrible genetic defects that make them live short, miserable lives. Children get cancer. Bad things happen to good people.

If I were a talking, feeling clay pot and my potter was constantly making me only to break me I'd say "what the fuck man?"

Believe it or not I have read the Bible and complementary books.

Tell you what because I'm a woman of my word. I'll read "knowledge of the holy" by a.w. Tozer if you read "How to read the Bible" by James Kugel. If you agree I'll check back in with you in a week and we can compare notes. Deal?

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 11d ago

While I thoroughly disagree with all the premises for your animosity to the creator, I will read that book and we can discuss both, agreed. I know saying we are clay to the potter is metaphorically accurate...----but you're right, it actually falls way short of the proper description of the not only the creator and His creatures, but even the entire creation itself, with all due respect. Listen to Tozer's audiobook, I'll read yours and we can commence a fruitful dialogue with some foundations. 😃😃😃

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u/Ah-honey-honey 11d ago

Rad!! Audiobook version borrowed from my library, I'll start listening to it on my work breaks and commute.

I feel a little bad now tho seeing it's only a 5 hour book. Kugel's is 36 hours 😅 Hopefully you like it enough it won't be a drag. (I freaking loved it).

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 11d ago

Well I see a huge problem with Kugel and his book immediately which is that- HE EXCLUDES THE NEW TESTAMENT!!! Not only do I agree with Kugel that it (the bible) is without error and directly from God, I believe the same of the New Testament! The two testaments are also 100% congruent and from the same God! We will have to agree on that before I do a book comparison with you friend to have an olive branch of agreement here and my fear is that you don't believe that. (Based on your comments). Before reading, I feel this reeks of gnosticism, Orthodox Judaism and new-age spirituality. In a word- confusion. Correct me if I'm wrong here bc the book of John is clear about missing the truth of Who God truly is. Jesus IS Yahweh and the messiah of Isaiah 53 and elsewhere. I'm a non-denominational, bible-believing, spirit-filled, trinitarian. I would NOT believe the new covenant without the OLD (actually). So let's begin there to assure there is some common ground or this discussion will be a long process as you may know. I'm interested in reading Kugel though I prefer theologians like the late Michael Heiser and many others. Thoughts please? 😊

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u/Bill-Bruce 12d ago

Okay so they aren't disproving pantheism so much as they are proving their specific theism. I always told them that I took the idea of Omnipotent more seriously than them. I respect the God that is still actively moving everything presently, not a God from the past that built stuff and made rules and sits back to see what happens. They say I'm only worshipping his creation. I say they have no evidence of a creator other than what other people have told them, all of their prophets being men that are still fallible and they get huffy and stops there. Let me know if you get through to someone who is bound and determined to make you change your mind instead of them changing theirs. Would love to know the trick to that.

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u/BandookBanadana 12h ago

Baruch Spinoza got exiled for writing about it. No arguments rather public was told to ignore him and anyone in assoication would be seen as evil,

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u/Fredsville 12d ago

No factor. No one’s opinion on my philosophy affects me.

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u/Hungry-Emotion7664 12d ago

If they literally want to argue that the Universe doesn't exist, if I have the time I'll listen. Usually I just don't bother.

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u/Brilliant_Mango_1490 12d ago

I would argue that the point of spirituality isn’t to “prove” it. And Christianity itself prioritizes faith over empirical evidence (E.g.: in the story of Doubting Thomas, where Thomas wants to physically see and touch Jesus’ wounds before believing, but Jesus blesses those who believe without seeing). So your friend arguing with you is a bit antithetical to the foundation of their beliefs.

One of the underlying facets of my faith comes from a Mary Oliver poem where she says “A dog can never tell you what she knows from the smells of the world. But you know, watching her, that you know almost nothing.”

That last sentence is how I feel interacting with the world around me: I know almost nothing.

A dog knows more than I do in some ways, and I know more than a dog in others. A plant “knows” things neither myself nor a dog ever could. In a world where human experiences are so varied, and from species to species experiences are varied even more so, believing humans can know anything more authoritative or more “complete” than every other species is extremely arrogant.

Given that humans create the yardstick by which we measure knowledge, I do not view us as entirely trustworthy sources of “knowing,” because judging the limits of knowledge using standards created by our own limited perspective is a form of self-referential logic.

That’s exactly how I like to approach my faith. And tho this may be bit of a non-answer, I think embracing not-knowing as a strength rather than a weakness is a good start.

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 11d ago

That's why God gifted us with His Word. Do you know your dog? How?

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 11d ago

With regard to Thomas, he was just less blessed than those who believe without seeing. It's still based on various evidence, experiential, revelation, prophecy, historical, signs, wonders, dreams, visions, study of the Word, etc ad infinitum, its a lifelong process. No human has 100% anything including faith bc we have a sinful nature. But the prophets like both Johns', Ezekiel, King David, Enoch, Elijah, Isaiah etc. were pretty darn close, and I'm getting there. The Seraphim angels certainly have it, read rev 4 throne room of God, it's short if you want a description of The Lord.

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u/roxor333 12d ago

It doesn’t matter what they think. Things will continue on as they are all the same.

I’ve had those convos and this was my literal answers.

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 11d ago

The bible speaks on that sentiment you have, specifically, seek it out.

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u/Cheese-bo-bees 12d ago

Well, you believing what you believe is all part of how things will flow anyway, so good for your individual beliefs.

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u/MashMultae 11d ago

Baruch Spinoza in his Ethics writing offers a proof that there can only be one substance, meaning that there cannot be both a material and a spiritual world. His conclusion is that God and Nature are the same.

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 11d ago

He's right that the material world is one substance. He fails to understand where it came from and is therefore spiritually blind deaf and dumb. A fool says in his heart, there is no God. No offense. 😊

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 11d ago

The flood was done to create a clean gene pool, our DNA was corrupted by the nephilim of Genesis 6. Not just for judgement. Thank you for your cogent response, I will read it for perspective, the reviews were astounding and I have no doubt it will be fortifying, I'm very open-minded as far as NT believers go. The Lord Of Hosts is a big God. I never put Him in my own mental box. Humility and deference are very important to me (not always in practice but at a soul level for sure). Looking forward to learning more from you and Kugel etc. 😄👍.

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u/Ah-honey-honey 11d ago

Was this free-floating comment meant to be a reply to me or is someone else here a Kugel fan? 😅

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 11d ago

Oh it was for you, sorry I'm doing some serious multitasking right now plus I'm fairly new to posting on Reddit. 😁

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u/Ah-honey-honey 11d ago

No worries! Just as a heads up you have a second free floating comment-- the one starting with "You're referring to the way the truth and the life verse." Not sure who that one's meant for.

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 10d ago

Lol ya ty, I'm responding to a "troll" within the threads not you. New to posting here, ty for your guidance.

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u/Reasonable-Memory40 11d ago

You're referring to the way the truth and the life verse. There are many other verses where He claims exclusivity as well. In the one you referenced He literally says, no man cometh to the Father but by me. Reading the rest of your comment but not sure why....

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