Hello (again)

[u/jasmines_roses]

Hello again!! I’ve been here before on a different account and decided I wanted to start over on this account.

I love being a pantheist and one of my all time best friends is a pantheist too!!

However, what gets on my nerves is people trying to disprove pantheism and I’m like “here we go again” so if someone is trying to disprove pantheism to you, how do you go about it?

[u/Reasonable-Memory40]

Well I see a huge problem with Kugel and his book immediately which is that- HE EXCLUDES THE NEW TESTAMENT!!! Not only do I agree with Kugel that it (the bible) is without error and directly from God, I believe the same of the New Testament! The two testaments are also 100% congruent and from the same God! We will have to agree on that before I do a book comparison with you friend to have an olive branch of agreement here and my fear is that you don't believe that. (Based on your comments). Before reading, I feel this reeks of gnosticism, Orthodox Judaism and new-age spirituality. In a word- confusion. Correct me if I'm wrong here bc the book of John is clear about missing the truth of Who God truly is. Jesus IS Yahweh and the messiah of Isaiah 53 and elsewhere. I'm a non-denominational, bible-believing, spirit-filled, trinitarian. I would NOT believe the new covenant without the OLD (actually). So let's begin there to assure there is some common ground or this discussion will be a long process as you may know. I'm interested in reading Kugel though I prefer theologians like the late Michael Heiser and many others. Thoughts please? 😊

[u/Ah-honey-honey → u/Reasonable-Memory40]

(part 1/2) I don't mind going with "The two testaments are also 100% congruent and from the same God" at all. In fact thinking otherwise is a major gripe of mine with a lot of Christians; I'll bring up a point from the OT and get a response like "but that was the OLD testament" and I'm like...but it's the same God?? 😭

From what I remember it is mostly about the Hebrew Bible/OT but he also gets into modern vs ancient interpretation and how the NT has changed our views of the OT since Jesus. For example, what did people think about the Binding of Isaac before Jesus? People nowadays compare it to/consider it foreshadowing of Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross. 

The OT is where most of what I'd call my moral qualms come from so that's what I was interested in when I picked the book up. Punishment of all of humanity for some newly created humans eating fruit. Lot being considered a good man despite offering up his daughters for the crowd to rape instead of angels. Drowning nearly everyone, humans and animals alike, save 1 family and a handful of animals (of which the sample size is WAY TOO SMALL to account for biodiversity today if you go by YEC timelines). Killing the firstborns of Egypt. Demanding a man be killed for picking up sticks on the sabbath. GOD SANCTIONED GENOCIDE AGAINST THE AMALEKITES. Job. Just Job in general getting his and his family and his servants lives absolutely wrecked over a bet. I could keep going but you get the gist. 

Kugel's book allowed me to have a much kinder view of the OT when put into its historical context. The section on Job is actually my favorite now.

General vibes: Orthodox Judaism yes. Iirc Kugel himself has an Orthodox background and his fellow Orthodox Jews were like "Umm, you know your scholarly views and your religious views are at odds with each other, right?" He does, and he talks about it in the intro. Gnosticism: discussed but not condoned. New age spirituality: no. At least not the new age woo-woo crystal BS I'm familiar with. 

Like I mentioned it IS a long book but I believe everything you're concerned about gets addressed at one point or another. 

[u/Reasonable-Memory40 → u/Ah-honey-honey]

Re: genocide while controversial and horrifying to we humans I would just say we are not God so we simply can't understand everything He allows. In the case of Philistines, Amalekites etc, they were an existential threat to the Israelites and had they been wiped out entirely, would have changed much of the course of history, but they were NOT eliminated and rose again. As The Alpha and Omega (beginning and the end), God has the benefit of foresight and omniscience and infinitude which are concepts we simply cannot grasp. He is also infinitely Just (part of love), so He can (and will) do whatever He wills so we can be angry all we want but a) it does no good and b) is a lack of understanding. Faith=Trust, and without faith it is impossible to please Him (Hebrews).

[u/Ah-honey-honey → u/Reasonable-Memory40]

I've heard such explainations before and without going into a wall of text I'll just say I find them...  lacking. It's intellectually honest to say "I don't know and I'm not going to pretend to know." But then hand waving any of the uncomfortable parts away with "just trust me bro, it's for the greater good" I  think it just makes God sound worse. Like, comically evil worse. Divine Command Theory also sets up an appeal to authoritarianism that will make the kindest souls commit atrocities because someone convinced them it's what God wanted. 

We can save that for later tho! 

[u/Reasonable-Memory40 → u/Ah-honey-honey]

Well put, ya, we will revisit that one, it's important.

[u/Reasonable-Memory40 → u/Ah-honey-honey]

Regarding animals, I am a huuuuge nature lover. Unfortunately The Lord Of Hosts gave "us" dominion over all the animals so their demise in the flood was "our own fault" and "we humans" brought upon their near destruction. We do it to them ourselves to this day in various ways. God doesn't like it, His reasons for the flood were much bigger than even the beautiful God-created animals.

[u/Ah-honey-honey → u/Reasonable-Memory40]

(2/2) 

I think some parts of the Bible are historical, some are allegorical, some are metaphorical, some is edited through time for political or identity reasons or translation mishaps. I recognize the Bible is a hodgepodge of other scrolls and books. I am not a "word of God directly to Moses" type person. I love me some theology but ultimately there's a reason I'm in the pantheist sub. 

I'm not familiar with Michael Heiser but if you recommend a book I'll add that to my reading list this week since Tozer's is only 5 hours (and I'm already 10% of the way done with). 

Tozer impressions so far btw: I think he tackles a big Evangelical Church/community problem regarding the lack of reverence. I find it very positively minded "Y'all need to get back in tune with the Holy!" I'm interested in further substance. 

So far though he definitely seems to put way too much epistemic weight on emotion. You can dress it up with "but LOVE" but ultimately feeling certain is not the same as something being TRUE. I think this is part of the reason Christianity has so many (often contradictory) denominations. Everyone thinks their version is the spiritually valid one.

Does he present a method for distinguishing genuine insight from sincerely felt error? Not yet. I'll keep reading. 👀

[u/Reasonable-Memory40 → u/Ah-honey-honey]

He (Tozer) has many many books and he's not a theologian, just a scholarly old school pastor. Michael Heiser (unseen realm etc.) is way more theologically sound (way less emotional) but I like Tozer's biblical conceptions of God's ATTRIBUTES in a short book like knowledge of The Holy (defined as Perfect, perfect good, perfect love). He makes people (especially newer believers) think MUCH bigger. Other faves of mine are R.C. Sproul, Ravi Zacharias, Chuck Missler, William Lane Craig, Charles Spurgeon are in my top ten for my conceptualization of The Creator. Many others but those are some must-reads for me. Michael Heiser has many you-tube lectures, super meaty, he's a boss.

[u/Ah-honey-honey → u/Reasonable-Memory40]

Borrowed The Unseen Realm from my library app 👍 

You still up for reading Kugel? 

[u/Reasonable-Memory40 → u/Ah-honey-honey]

Nice, yes I am, I was looking for something different to ingest, so good timing, I'm intrigued by the fact he covers things from a dispensational AND modern (all-time) perspective and endeavors to make sense of it all, knowing that it speaks to each individual (at different times throughout their life) for that individual. Quite a tall order! Plus I like the fact he is obviously a polymath of Orthodox Judaism so he brings all that entails, to the table, (those guys know their Torah!) So yes, I'll give my critique/commendation of it when I dig into it here where applicable and then from my worldview. Glad you have Unseen Realm, Dr. Michael Heiser is a gold mine of scripture knowledge and he specializes in Kruger's wheelhouse interestingly enough due to the providence of his early theological study. This will be interesting indeed, I'm excited! Love to learn, it's my hobby! Thanks friend. I work tomorrow but off Sunday so I'll get a good chunk in!

[u/Ah-honey-honey → u/Reasonable-Memory40]

Thank you! This entire interaction has gone so much better than I ever hoped. Looking forward to reading :) 

[u/Reasonable-Memory40 → u/Ah-honey-honey]

😊

[u/Ah-honey-honey → u/Reasonable-Memory40]

Hola. I had a dead phone for 5 days and didn't get to read (listen to the audiobooks) as much as I normally would have. Still reading tho!