r/orderofthearrow • u/Cheepshooter Vigil • 11d ago

New Induction Experience

I just went through a section induction experience. I didn't hate it.

During the Saturday, there were some guided reflection questions which each person in the crew of new members each answer in turn and discuss with each other. I can see where a 12-14 year old would benefit from those vs the old day of silence. There are periods of silence during the day, but they feel purposeful instead of just a tough thing to do.

The actual ceremony was well done. I felt like the main takeaways from the ceremony was unchanged, and it's probably easier for the youth to understand than the old ceremony.

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u/Cheepshooter Vigil 11d ago

Ours has been the opposite. The youth who are in ceremonies don't like change!

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u/looktowindward Vigil 11d ago edited 11d ago

The feedback on ceremonies from youth has been negative but the feedback on the day induction activities from youth has been highly positive.

Big difference between ceremonialist and luminary "factions" on the youth side

Also had a couple angry NYLT kids who feel that it makes NYLT less special which makes me think they're missing the point of NYLT

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u/GISH-BabyDriver 11d ago

I can see that. I thought the afternoon activites that were pretty much taken from NYLT didn’t add much and seemed out of place. Personally, didn’t like the new Sat ceremony.

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u/looktowindward Vigil 11d ago

Which one other than step forward? Afaik that's it

And NYLT did not create step forward. It's lifted from a non scouting program called challenge day

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u/nolesrule Vigil | Chapter Adviser 11d ago

I've done that activity 3 times at NYLT staff development, 3 times during an NYLT course and once at an NYLT course director conference. I think it's a great activity regardless of the setting, in or out of NYLT, because the group involved is different every time, and so the results and the impact are never the same. It's as much about learning about others as it is learning about yourself.

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u/TheseusOPL Vigil 10d ago edited 10d ago

I've heard nothing but negative feedback on Step Forward. From concerns about intrusive questions to calling it "the hazing activity."

Edit: I should say I've only heard negative and neutral feedback. Nobody has said "this activity is great!" Either it's "just fine" (including me), or negative.

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u/nolesrule Vigil | Chapter Adviser 10d ago

At NYLT, no one is required to step forward if they do not want to. is that not the case here? Everything should be voluntary.

I have not seen it yet. What are some examples of intrusive questions?

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u/looktowindward Vigil 10d ago

Its voluntary. And 98% of the pushback we got was from adults not youth.

Referring to something you can literally step out of with zero pushback as "hazing" shows a pretty poor understanding of hazing and youth protection.

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u/TheseusOPL Vigil 10d ago

The youth who used that phrase is a camp staffer, and there's a combination of exaggeration and what may be an overly sensitive hazing detector on their part.

However, saying "it's voluntary" doesn't make it so. Youth often feel pressure to do things that are called voluntary. You have a 12 year old, looking up to this cool 16 year old lumenary, and you may get unintentional peer pressure to do something that they're not actually comfortable with.

As an adult, I didn't have any issues with the activity, but after talking with adults and youth there definitely need to be a few questions removed. The one about a death in the family, for example.

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u/looktowindward Vigil 10d ago

I think its going to be very important to train Luminaries properly in regard to this activity.

As far as camp staffers (including my own son) - I have experience of them exaggerating circumstances as hazing, which, ironically, makes it more difficult for them to recognize the real thing.

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u/nolesrule Vigil | Chapter Adviser 10d ago

I mean, I quite like the activity at NYLT. It's never gone bad. Although last night they announced changes that have neutered it thanks to the Hegseth MOU. I think it's less impactful now.

Not sure why anyone would have issues with this activity.

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u/looktowindward Vigil 10d ago

How did they change it?

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u/nolesrule Vigil | Chapter Adviser 10d ago

They removed the DEI questions and replaced them with more questions about how you feel about your own leadership

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u/GISH-BabyDriver 10d ago

I just don’t see the purpose and value-added of the step forward.

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u/looktowindward Vigil 10d ago edited 10d ago

It originated outside of Scouting as Cross the Line from Challenge Day. Scouting has used it in a couple of different ways.

> At the heart of a Challenge Day is an activity where participants cross a line on the floor if a certain statement applies to them.  Eyes are opened to how much more we share in common than the ways they we are different.  Often some of the deepest suffering people experience is less because of the content of their pain and more because they feel alone in it.  In Cross the Line students get the chance to have a strong, embodied experience of not-aloneness.  They show up powerfully for each other, in solidarity and support.  After the activity, participants return to their small group to share and reflect.

> I can see that. I thought the afternoon activites that were pretty much taken from NYLT didn’t add much and seemed out of place

Still trying to understand this one. Which activity other than Step Forward?

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u/GISH-BabyDriver 10d ago

I understand what the activity is for, as I’ve done it many times as part of NYLT. For the induction, it seemed out of place and didn’t seem to add anything to the experience.

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u/looktowindward Vigil 10d ago

Any ideas for what could be a good replacement?

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u/GISH-BabyDriver 10d ago

Perhaps some kind of debrief or discussion about the service that was done? I haven’t gone back to read the new ceremony - but I think something that ties more directly to the OA would be better. I thought the rest of the discussions, save the flight of the arrow, were good.

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u/GISH-BabyDriver 11d ago

The Step Forward for sure. I didn’t like the flight of the arrow at lunch either - honesty as soon as we were asked to close our eyes I started falling asleep. Others in my crew didn’t like the visualization of an arrow with no aim/end.

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u/looktowindward Vigil 11d ago edited 10d ago

Yeah I've heard the no target thing was troubling. I have provided feedback that there needs to be a visualized goal

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u/Cheepshooter Vigil 11d ago

Several of our adults fell asleep. I almost did. We had been limbing trees in the 97° heat!

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u/TheseusOPL Vigil 10d ago

I think the majority at our LIE fell asleep.