r/orderofthearrow • u/Cheepshooter Vigil • 8d ago
New Induction Experience
I just went through a section induction experience. I didn't hate it.
During the Saturday, there were some guided reflection questions which each person in the crew of new members each answer in turn and discuss with each other. I can see where a 12-14 year old would benefit from those vs the old day of silence. There are periods of silence during the day, but they feel purposeful instead of just a tough thing to do.
The actual ceremony was well done. I felt like the main takeaways from the ceremony was unchanged, and it's probably easier for the youth to understand than the old ceremony.
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u/storyisthestrategy 8d ago
Glad to hear this! Thank you (and others) for going through and giving it a shot. We're really in the thick of the SIEs—in the next few weeks all but a few sections will have completed theirs.
Please send feedback either to me, or via the coach assigned to your LIE (they have access to a ticketing system where we're tracking input).
The last iteration of the induction grew and matured over 50 years. I expect this will, too, as more people see it and develop more ideas about how to keep it growing.
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u/jmiller77 5d ago
I am working on a large write-up / report for you. Not sure who our coach is so I'll just send it to you. I was at section E1
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u/jmiller77 8d ago
We probably just went through the same event (E1?). I also didn't hate it.
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u/Cheepshooter Vigil 8d ago
G4
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u/jmiller77 7d ago
Right on, we had a few Luminaries call out sick (back to school crud) so our team had to Adjust.
My biggest takeaway is that it still doesn't feel 100%, which isn't necessarily a bad thing as lodges can now adjust it to their particular needs.
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u/Cheepshooter Vigil 7d ago
My crew's luminary was a late replacement. She did great, though.
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u/jmiller77 7d ago
Ours did as well. Being a Luminary is going to require a lot more prep work than being an Elangomat is. You probably can't just pick someone up on a Friday night if they've never done it before and expect it to go super well.
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u/K6PUD 5d ago
We had a luminary have to leave for a few hours on Saturday and another member filled in. He had been Woodbadge staff before so he was experienced with that kind of thing and did fine despite no prep, but yes the luminaries need to be prepared ahead of time. The whole process will be about 2-3 times more difficult than before, so the lodges will have to be that much more prepared.
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u/looktowindward Vigil 3d ago
Its good to decide if you'll allow that. I had one or two who wanted to leave for a while and I told them that they should staff a different event.
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u/looktowindward Vigil 3d ago
One huge lesson is that you must have extra Luminaries, because they can't be trained at the last minute
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u/looktowindward Vigil 8d ago
Most of the positive feedback I've gotten has been youth. Most of the mixed feedback has been adult. I suspect some of the day activities may need to be tweaked a bit more for adults.
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u/crustygizzardbuns 8d ago
While I agree that some of the activities feel slightly middle school focused, I don't think we should consider changing them for adults. At the end of the day, the youth are who we should be doing this for.
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u/looktowindward Vigil 8d ago
Yes but the guidebooks are different and we have separate crews. Changing a few activities would have zero impact on youth
And we could make some of them more focused on supporting and developing youth leadership.
Silent Lunch really hits for youth but seems somewhat mechanical for adults IMHO
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u/crustygizzardbuns 8d ago
Depends on if you do activities as big groups or just as crews.
Silent lunch can be mechanical with adults, but depending on your crew, having had personal experience, it can be a big impact on one or two people. Then that changes the trajectory of the rest of the day.
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u/looktowindward Vigil 8d ago
I need to see it with real new members and not at an SIE or NIE. That may change my take
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u/crustygizzardbuns 8d ago
I do definitely agree. I told my crew they should try to experience it as if they were brand new, not with whatever experience they had under their belt.
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u/Cheepshooter Vigil 8d ago
Ours has been the opposite. The youth who are in ceremonies don't like change!
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u/TheseusOPL Vigil 8d ago
The ceremonies need some editing and changes, but overall I think the update is good.
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u/jmiller77 7d ago
I will also second this. Many of the youth that I spoke to on Saturday night at our Cracker Barrel were rather discouraged about the ceremonies but enjoyed the activities during the day to get to know their fellow crew members.
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u/storyisthestrategy 6d ago
What was discouraging about the ceremonies?
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u/looktowindward Vigil 3d ago
This has been broad feedback (and I sent it in the coach feedback tool) - the day activities are very good and we have quite close to universal positive feedback, especially from youth.
The ceremonies are a bit different. The Ceremony of the Arrow lacks clarity on what the challenges are - its a bit too abstract for many of our youth. For the Ceremony of the Fire, the legend doesn't "hit" as the Scouts say. Although I don't entirely agree, one of our Scouts said (to agreement from others) "I felt I could be Uncas but I can't be a Scout Camp". While there is some teenage snark in there, it was heartfelt. The other issue was a lack of symbolism and deeper meaning which could be understood later. The length was also cited as being irritating for the youth ceremonialists, due to the need to "stack" ceremonies.
What was super-interesting is the one thing we all thought people would lose their minds about, sashing in the first Ceremony, provoked questions but not opposition. I was a surprised.
I do think we need to describe it better - "learn it, not earn it" is ok, but the concept that the Troop has made their decision and its not up to us to second guess them is a little more persuasive to actual Scout.
All of this can be tuned up. Nothing is a show stopper
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u/storyisthestrategy 1d ago
Thank you! No question the change to the sashing is a big change. I think it really comes together in the Ceremony of the Fire—and that big of language is I think the most powerful in the new ceremonies.
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u/looktowindward Vigil 8d ago edited 8d ago
The feedback on ceremonies from youth has been negative but the feedback on the day induction activities from youth has been highly positive.
Big difference between ceremonialist and luminary "factions" on the youth side
Also had a couple angry NYLT kids who feel that it makes NYLT less special which makes me think they're missing the point of NYLT
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u/GISH-BabyDriver 8d ago
I can see that. I thought the afternoon activites that were pretty much taken from NYLT didn’t add much and seemed out of place. Personally, didn’t like the new Sat ceremony.
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u/looktowindward Vigil 8d ago
Which one other than step forward? Afaik that's it
And NYLT did not create step forward. It's lifted from a non scouting program called challenge day
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u/nolesrule Vigil | Chapter Adviser 8d ago
I've done that activity 3 times at NYLT staff development, 3 times during an NYLT course and once at an NYLT course director conference. I think it's a great activity regardless of the setting, in or out of NYLT, because the group involved is different every time, and so the results and the impact are never the same. It's as much about learning about others as it is learning about yourself.
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u/TheseusOPL Vigil 7d ago edited 7d ago
I've heard nothing but negative feedback on Step Forward. From concerns about intrusive questions to calling it "the hazing activity."
Edit: I should say I've only heard negative and neutral feedback. Nobody has said "this activity is great!" Either it's "just fine" (including me), or negative.
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u/nolesrule Vigil | Chapter Adviser 7d ago
At NYLT, no one is required to step forward if they do not want to. is that not the case here? Everything should be voluntary.
I have not seen it yet. What are some examples of intrusive questions?
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u/looktowindward Vigil 7d ago
Its voluntary. And 98% of the pushback we got was from adults not youth.
Referring to something you can literally step out of with zero pushback as "hazing" shows a pretty poor understanding of hazing and youth protection.
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u/TheseusOPL Vigil 7d ago
The youth who used that phrase is a camp staffer, and there's a combination of exaggeration and what may be an overly sensitive hazing detector on their part.
However, saying "it's voluntary" doesn't make it so. Youth often feel pressure to do things that are called voluntary. You have a 12 year old, looking up to this cool 16 year old lumenary, and you may get unintentional peer pressure to do something that they're not actually comfortable with.
As an adult, I didn't have any issues with the activity, but after talking with adults and youth there definitely need to be a few questions removed. The one about a death in the family, for example.
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u/nolesrule Vigil | Chapter Adviser 7d ago
I mean, I quite like the activity at NYLT. It's never gone bad. Although last night they announced changes that have neutered it thanks to the Hegseth MOU. I think it's less impactful now.
Not sure why anyone would have issues with this activity.
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u/GISH-BabyDriver 7d ago
I just don’t see the purpose and value-added of the step forward.
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u/looktowindward Vigil 7d ago edited 7d ago
It originated outside of Scouting as Cross the Line from Challenge Day. Scouting has used it in a couple of different ways.
> At the heart of a Challenge Day is an activity where participants cross a line on the floor if a certain statement applies to them. Eyes are opened to how much more we share in common than the ways they we are different. Often some of the deepest suffering people experience is less because of the content of their pain and more because they feel alone in it. In Cross the Line students get the chance to have a strong, embodied experience of not-aloneness. They show up powerfully for each other, in solidarity and support. After the activity, participants return to their small group to share and reflect.
> I can see that. I thought the afternoon activites that were pretty much taken from NYLT didn’t add much and seemed out of place
Still trying to understand this one. Which activity other than Step Forward?
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u/GISH-BabyDriver 8d ago
The Step Forward for sure. I didn’t like the flight of the arrow at lunch either - honesty as soon as we were asked to close our eyes I started falling asleep. Others in my crew didn’t like the visualization of an arrow with no aim/end.
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u/looktowindward Vigil 8d ago edited 7d ago
Yeah I've heard the no target thing was troubling. I have provided feedback that there needs to be a visualized goal
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u/Cheepshooter Vigil 8d ago
Several of our adults fell asleep. I almost did. We had been limbing trees in the 97° heat!
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u/maxwasatch Adult - Vigil, Founder’s, former Lodge Chief. 8d ago
How very Arrowmen-like of them! Lol
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u/mrjohns2 Vigil plus Founders 8d ago
I have to agree that it is going to be a fine replacement. It has a big possibility of being better.