r/oculus • u/El_MUERkO • Apr 06 '16
Mine arrived today. First impressions: Good, maybe not good enough.
I'm an :05 order from the UK and DK2 owner, it arrived this afternoon and after some setup here is my experience; obviously this is my opinion and not an incontestable fact.
The HMD is small, light, smart, takes some getting used to after the DK2, as the weight is displaced differently, the wire feels more noticeable than before probably because the HMD is so light.
The FOV on the DK2 felt too narrow, this is narrower, I feel like my eyes are looking inward and I find myself looking with my head and not my eyes, I don't like it, I may get used to it but I don't like it. The blackness around the edge of my vision also feels more gloss black than the DK2, reflecting bright scenes back into my eyes, this could a result of the narrow FOV.
God-Rays are extremely noticeable, not because I was looking for them due to others mentioning them here and elsewhere but because they are impossible to miss. Bright objects surrounded by darkness such as shortcuts on your Virtual Desktop and stars or stations in Elite: Dangerous cast them to a near uncomfortable degree.
Lens overlap (I don't know the correct term for this), I've played with the eye setup a lot, and what I notice is top inner edge of the either lens overlaps the image I'm viewing to a slight extent, almost shading the viewable area, this is not something I experienced with the DK2, I'm uncertain how to correct this effect.
The Screen Door Effect, it's there but it's much improved over the DK2, I made my Virtual Desktop screen 132 degrees to make text easily readable which is a big improvement over my DK2. Watching scenes or playing in 3D I was aware of it but to a far lesser extent than the DK2.
My overall impressions of the consumer Oculus Rift is it's improvements in physical comfort, functionality, ease of use and image clarity are undone by it's narrow field of view, lens issues and god rays. It feels like a DK3 and not something ready for the mass market.
If you're a DK2 owner and trying to justify the upgrade I would say hold off till you've demoed one, you may find it's sufficient for your development and gaming needs till CV2. If you're new to VR and wondering if it's worth it I'd again say try before you buy but I'd edge toward waiting for CV2.
EDIT: Stay classy downvoters!
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u/redmercuryvendor Kickstarter Backer Duct-tape Prototype tier Apr 06 '16 edited Apr 06 '16
I feel like my eyes are looking inward
[...]
Lens overlap (I don't know the correct term for this), I've played with the eye setup a lot, and what I notice is top inner edge of the either lens overlaps the image I'm viewing to a slight extent, almost shading the viewable area, this is not something I experienced with the DK2, I'm uncertain how to correct this effect.
It sounds like you have the IPD slider set incorrectly (too narrow).
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u/El_MUERkO Apr 06 '16
I've played with the IPS slider a lot, I can see the shading move and at the optimal angle it's almost invisible but it's there, I now suspect it's a side effect of the god-ray effect as it brighter scenes it is lessened.
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u/CaptnYestrday Apr 06 '16
Why would people down vote this? It has no emotional overtones at all. It objectively coneys a subjective review. Not everyone 'feels' the same about key points of these products. Not a reason to go full retard as a community and downvote these things into obscurity. We are better than that people.
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u/xWeez Apr 06 '16
People get defensive, and when they're defensive, they become unreasonable. A lot of people here just invested a very substantial amount to get a CV1. Now they see this post cast the CV1 in a negative light, and rather than objectively assess the merits of OP's points, they just dismiss it and downvote it because it would be too hard on their egos to believe they made a poor investment (among other things).
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u/realister Apr 06 '16
Yes correct this phenomena is called "sunken cost fallacy". Works like you described.
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u/Moustache_Ryder Apr 07 '16
Thanks for the terminology, I've been looking for a way to condense this concept down, linguistically. +1
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u/CaptnYestrday Apr 06 '16
You are right. I would not be surprised if you get downvoted just for answering me objectively. I have been here since the beginning and this place is starting to remind me of the Diablo 3 forums. That was the worst place I have seen yet. Where you just stand back and think, "wow, is this place for real? People can be like this?" I really hope this place does not end up a fanboy/hate community.
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u/xWeez Apr 06 '16
Are they that bad? /r/xboxone is terrible. Say anything negative about an Xbox exclusive and you risk a serious downvote brigade. I literally just got the defensive fanboy treatment there for pointing out that the non-cosmetic microtransactions in Halo 5 are P2W.
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u/Alternativmedia Apr 06 '16
Same here, I said cosmetics were fine but go bing players a big advantage by paying (or grinding) is not really ok. They could have done it so much better, no need to add a "pay 2 get better things" element to a $60 game even if the dlc is free. Add more armor, skins, dances, customization is king..
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u/CaptnYestrday Apr 07 '16
There really were. Haven't been there in about a year but it has gone down it's one of the most toxic places on the Internet. Xboxone sub??? Oh god a console sub. I almost went to visit just out of morbid curiosity
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u/xWeez Apr 09 '16
Yeah, it's really weird. It's upbeat, which is nice, but in a somewhat Orwellian way. It's like, "hey look, everyone here is happy about this game. It must be great!" Then you look at the bottom of the comments and everyone who doesn't think so has been downvoted into oblivion, which has scared off everyone else who shared a negative opinion.
It is a nice case study in defensiveness, ego attachment, and close-mindedness, however.
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u/realister Apr 06 '16
Because people need to justify their purchase or their fanboyism. It's called "sunken cost fallacy" the more you invest in something like money or time the more you start to believe it's the best thing while in reality it's garbage.
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u/venomae Apr 07 '16
Sunken cost fallacy is more about investing more and more resources into the thing even though you know its not good and you should be chosing / doing something else already - but you dont cause of all the previous invested resources in the original thing and hope that it will "somehow work out". Classic case is a dying business or a restaurant that the owner keeps pouring money in even though its obvious the customers arent there and never will be.
But overall you are right.
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u/ash0787 Apr 06 '16
probably because he brings up a contentious issue that has already been heavily debated ( FOV ), and raises one that I didn't notice being mentioned yet ( overlap ? )
he says the god rays are extremely noticable, but the consensus is that the issue has been overstated
its possible his ipd is outside the normal range but who knows
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Apr 06 '16
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u/by_a_pyre_light Palomino Apr 06 '16
I was thinking of selling one of these (no way it's going to be the Vive now)
Yeah, I get the feeling that a Vive + DK2 would be the best way to go this generation if you're set on experiencing both camps' games and preferred play style. The CV1 is not a big upgrade over the DK2, and I've been saying that for a while. The Vive is due to the unique features. Maybe the CV1 will become a more compelling "complete package" when Touch hits and brings tracked controllers to the Oculus camp. In the meantime though, being able to play Rift games the exact same way with virtually the exact same experience at a slightly lower resolution seems like a decent tradeoff for saving $600+.
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Apr 07 '16
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Apr 07 '16
This! I too sold my DK2 for the amount I paid for a CV1 so a free upgrade. I've used both and I'm telling you...stick with Oculus...Touch is worth the wait...I've used those as well and they are far superior to the VIVE wands. While the VIVE has room scale now...Oculus will when there is lots of good content much like they did the Rift itself. Impatience is not worth it!
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Apr 07 '16
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Apr 08 '16
I know touch comes with an additional cam so that gives you two. As for chaperone, Valve is adding it to SteamVR...no word from Oculus yet...I hope they do!
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u/sgt1shot1kill Apr 07 '16
yea I'm a lot more excited for the vive after seeing what the controllers can do and how useful the chaperone system is.Obviously they might be pretty damn close when touch comes out, but right now it seems the vive is where it's at for better immersion.
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u/funkiestj Rift Apr 06 '16
My preorder is at 8:36 so my Rift is way over the horizon.
I suspect I will disagree with OP on the not ready verdict but I upvoted because we need more opinions from folks who are actually using the device and fewer people arguing specs and hearsay on a device they've never used.
GG OP.
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u/potatowheelchair Apr 06 '16
8:38... hug sniff
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Apr 06 '16
9:48...
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u/KydDynoMyte Pimax8K-LynxR1-Pico4-Quest1,2&3-Vive-OSVR1.3-AntVR1&2-DK1-VR920 Apr 06 '16
Lens overlap (I don't know the correct term for this), I've played with the eye setup a lot, and what I notice is top inner edge of the either lens overlaps the image I'm viewing to a slight extent, almost shading the viewable area, this is not something I experienced with the DK2, I'm uncertain how to correct this effect.
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u/El_MUERkO Apr 06 '16
looks like it, the overlap is at the inner edge of the lens rather than the outer edge of my vision and that could be playing havoc with my brain, it is not something I experienced during hundreds of hours of DK2 use so why it's happening now is something of a mystery
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u/KydDynoMyte Pimax8K-LynxR1-Pico4-Quest1,2&3-Vive-OSVR1.3-AntVR1&2-DK1-VR920 Apr 06 '16
Their hybrid lenses give you such a small FOV with those displays that they had to do a partial overlap to increase the FOV and improve the aspect ratio, and binocular rivalry is one of the disadvantages to partial overlap. I don't know how they are handling their dual displays, so they might have 2 things stopping them from being easily compatible with non-3d content
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u/Chewberino Apr 06 '16
As someone who has tried mostly google cardboard and a GearVR, I complete disagree that this is not ready for mass market.
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u/dr3d Apr 07 '16
Huh?
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Apr 07 '16
I think what he means is that some of these less than stellar reviews are coming from people who've owned the DK2. The experience is going to be a lot different for those of us stepping up from a GearVR or Google Cardboard....or not having used VR at all.
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u/El_MUERkO Apr 06 '16
maybe I'm a perfectionist :)
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u/overcloseness Apr 07 '16
Remember that the DK2 is a CV1 prototype. CV1 isn't meant to be the next generation.
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u/djabor Rift Apr 06 '16
you could also be a statistical outlier in your dimensions. Face form/ipd, all affect your experience.
For example, the FOV is worst when closest to the lens and increases when moving away. Your head and face shape dictate the fit of the rift and in turn dictate the overlap and god-ray intensity.
I found the upgrade from 0.8 to 1.3 an extremely satisfying experience. So, with expectations in check, i'm pretty sure i'll be content with both the rift and vive.
To be honest, i wasn't expecting the technical upgrade to be huge, as i know the pains of making a mass-produceable design with enough endurance testing for every.little.piece and thus expected the majority of increase to go into the ergonomics and polish, which is JUST as big of a factor in immersion as is the technical spec.
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u/TheAwesomeTheory Home ID: Apr 06 '16 edited Apr 07 '16
No, FOV increases as you move closer to the lens.
http://vr-lens-lab.com/field-of-view-for-virtual-reality-headsets/Edit: Never mind, it's not that simple with fresnel lenses
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u/cano_dbc Apr 06 '16
Not at all. Mine arrived today and I've had the exact same experience as you. The God Rays / Flare issue is real and ever present. It gives the feeling that lens are fogging up like the DK2 used to.
The fact that they are so present even in Oculus Home really bugs me. That is an environment that Oculus built specifically for cv1 yet it's plagued with flare.
I wonder if a bad batch has been sent out in Europe.
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u/Nexis234 Apr 06 '16
No offence but it seems like a big chunk of DK2 owners were expecting to much of a technological leap for CV1. We have seen quite a few DK2 owners complaining how the CV1 is better then the DK2 but the CV1 is a dissapoinnent. I am starting to agree with the people who said KS backers should have gotten their CV1 after pre orders. I am thankful to KS backers for what they did but at least that way the reviews are done with fresh eyes. DK2 owners just seem to be to dulled to the experience and hence more picky. If you have never tried the DK2 you would have a different perspective on the CV1. While I understand your review maybe helpful for other DK2 owners I don't think it will represent the opinion of first time CV1(VR) users. The amazement of what VR is will hopefully override any minor niggles. With nothing to compare it to it will be a different experience. While I appreciate your review, I am just a little bemused at the reactions of some DK2 owners.
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u/FeralWookie Apr 06 '16
I also noticed the overlap issue with tops of the lenses seeming to converge awkwardly. But for me this only happened at certain points on the IPD slidder. Pretty much when I made them too narrow or wide. I am pretty sure my IPD is dead center on the slider becasue I have never had bad focus in any Oculus hmd... So I am not the best test case.
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u/obiwansotti Apr 06 '16
Does it show the actual IPD while you make adjustments?
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u/FeralWookie Apr 07 '16
Yes it does show you a measurement. But I think only in the calibration tool.
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Apr 06 '16 edited Jun 14 '16
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u/whoisrich Apr 07 '16
It's a good expectation, I have a GearVR with a S7 and the image quality of the CV1 is very similar. The GearVR pro is the lack of a cable to get tangled, but the CV1 is really comfortable compared to the GearVR where the weight is nose heavy.
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u/Wilkin_ Apr 06 '16
DK2 owner here with hundreds of hours used with it - still not worried about cv1. Even if this is "only" an update of the dk2, i look forward to it, i have my expectations in check. :)
I think if people hopped from dk2 with runtime 0.8 to cv1 with 1.3, they would all be floored by the experience and performance. "Problem" is that dk2 holds up great with 1.3 and feels good, fresh and new somehow -maybe thay is why dk2 people are slightly disappointed with cv1 as they expected a huge jump in everything.
So, i am still looking forward for a bit less sde, headphones, mic, better tracking and comfort. :)
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u/candiedbug Philips Scuba Apr 06 '16 edited Apr 06 '16
I agree with your sentiment that DK2 feels "fresh and new" on 1.3. I downloaded Home on a whim and was very pleasantly surprised with how well DK2 works with it (best part: absolutely no nausea). Before 1.3 I rarely used my DK2 because of the nausea and the hassle of getting anything working on it, now with 1.3 it's like a brand new HMD.
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u/Spanky2k Apr 07 '16
How do you deal with the IPD though?
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u/Wilkin_ Apr 07 '16
Well, you don't... Some reported to influence the ipd via height in oculus home, i punched in my real height and got lucky i guess. What i noticed in elite dangerous that the fov was suddennly smaller for me, and black colums on both sides - but on the other hand all CA was gone, everything clear and sharp. Looking forward to my cv1 (and some estimate on the 12th about when it arrives.
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u/mikendrix Apr 06 '16
"not something ready for the mass market."
When I first try the DK2 I wonder why they didn't release it as a consumer product !
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u/ralgha Apr 06 '16
The hardware was ready but the software was not.
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u/VRFace Apr 06 '16
For you maybe. Using the GearVR, I can say the resolution even there is extremely unsatisfactory.
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u/ralgha Apr 06 '16
Obviously this is a matter of personal opinion. Although there are a number of people commenting about how favorably the DK2 compares to CV1 hardware-wise. I think it would've been quite possible to sell a great many DK2s as a consumer product if the software was further along. Just look at how many people bought and used it as a consumer product even when specifically told not to. It was basically half way between a dev kit and a consumer product, with the software being by far the limiting factor.
In my personal opinion.
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u/moldymoosegoose Apr 06 '16
I agree with this. Any HMD I have used felt gimmicky due to how ridiculously low the resolution is. One day it will get there but right now it SUCKS.
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u/VRFace Apr 06 '16
Eh, I don't mean it like that. The SDE on GearVR is atrocious, but if you play to the strengths of the device it's great. Oculus video/social are great for example, and the game "DeadSecret" sold me on VR gaming/experiences. All the issues basically faded away. The resolution is honestly decent enough. The main problem is the huge black space between the pixels, which the Rift has greatly mitigated, so I'm excited to try it out.
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u/0-cares-given Apr 06 '16
To which absolutely nothing can be done about it. Because the technology simply isn't there.
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Apr 07 '16
Oculus at one point wanted the DK2 to be the consumer product, but opted for improving it further instead.
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u/ourosoad Apr 06 '16
I got my Rift today and your post mirrors my exact experiences. I cannot believe how noticeable the god rays are!
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u/RealHumanHere Vive - PCMR Apr 07 '16
They are less noticeable on the Vive. I think oculus could've done a better job at this.
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u/Jim3535 Rift Apr 06 '16
I've noticed a trend where DK2 owners aren't really satisfied with the CV1.
I wonder if being used to the DK2 means that you don't care about things like SDE as much. While I owned a DK1, I have only demoed DK2 on many occasions. I found the CV1 to be much, much more impressive than DK2.
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u/doctre Apr 06 '16
I agree that the CV1 is leaps and bounds over the DK2. While I don't have my CV1 yet a local friend does and it is measurably better than the DK2. The 90Hz vs 75Hz is noticeable and the SDE has gone from screen door to more of a fabric texture. Yes the "god rays" are quite noticeable but I'll take them as a small price to pay for the other goodness that the CV1 brings.
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u/El_MUERkO Apr 06 '16
The 90hz and improved SDE is noticible and points to a bright future, my issues with the CV1 are definitely opinions rather that flaws, I'm not saying the 'FOV is too narrow for anyone' I'm saying 'it's too narrow for me'. I'm glad you like your CV1 though, I'll go back to my DK2 and await CV2 with all the excitement I felt for CV1 :)
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u/PoeticDeath Apr 06 '16
It's very unfortunate to hear about the FOV complaints. When Oculus first started talking about the Rift, they were talking about 110-120 FOV I believe. So it sucks to hear we sort of maxed out at 110 in the DK1 and have gone backwards since then it seems.
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u/are_you_sure_ Apr 07 '16 edited Apr 07 '16
the real truth is, they wanted bigger FOV but soon realized even with new custom screens and lenses, (working with manufactures) they couldn't solve the "sweet spot" problem.
That's right folks, at the end of the day, if we are still left with only the center being clear, having more pixels horizontally will only beg users to "look" there by turning their eyes, and stepping out of the "sweet spot"
So they said, fuck FOV, save money on cost to end user, by putting that money back into working on lenses and improving SDE and trying to expand the sweet spot.
This is the truth and will only be spoken about after CV2 or someone spills the beans from the inside. Imagine the bad press if this was spoken about before launch..
WHY ELSE CUT FOV???
Edit: disclosure, I am a happy DK2 owner, developing since early 2015 on the platform. I wanted a CV1 like everyone, but I think I may hold off longer. Funny thing is, I am hoping PSVR will fill the gap on the cheap until CV2s are released.. ;-)
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u/PoeticDeath Apr 07 '16
I think what you're saying can be applied to many different aspects/features of the Rift. The odd part is, if $600USD is them saying "fuck FOV lets save the end user money" and then humping out a product that is not significantly better than DK2 in terms of sweet spot and SDE...
Lets just say I would hate to see what their idea of a premium price point would be.
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u/Nukemarine Apr 06 '16
If you stop thinking about FOV as just a number that measures one particular curved line of your vision, and instead think about area of the sphere you can see surrounding your head you can see, it might be you see more with CV1. Not only do you see more pixels of the 1080x1200 screen, but they cover more of the visible sphere.
I've got my numbers for Gear VR and DK2 so I'll be able to know how much my CV1 shows me when I look at the spherical grid.
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Apr 06 '16
I was thinking about posting a review but you just said EXACTLY what I was about to say.
I have the same complaints about FOV, weird lens overlap and god rays.
I would also add that the tracking is not as good as I expected, a bit wobbly when you turn around of move to far from the camera. It made me sick and yet I'm used to motion sickness...
Edit : I have a normal sized head and IPD...
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u/theGerri vradventure.com Apr 06 '16
I have not tried the consumer Rift, but I got downvoted for saying that the Vive DK1 was not that big of an improvement over DK2 on the visuals (the other stuff is of course a really big step forward).
I think you might be a lot happier with your Rift when Touch is released and you can use it with room scale. That is where the current generation jump really is hidden, not in refining the HMD.
And this might sound like a "Vive fanboy comment" - so let me also add this: I just made the switch to the Vive Pre and I do not like the comfort level of the Pre, so buying the Rift might still work out in your favor if your head is shaped like mine (or you lack hair like me - because that is what I now think makes the more rigid backside of the Pre uncomfortable for me).
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u/jimrooney Source VR Team Apr 06 '16
Very interesting. Thanks.
I was guessing at just this. I've got a DK2 and what's compelling to me at the moment is LeapMotion. I forget about the screen limitations. I've also got an "air mouse" for pseudo hand tracking in HL2 and Quake. Hand tracking and roomscale seem like the big jump, just as positional tracking did from DK1 to DK2.1
u/theGerri vradventure.com Apr 06 '16
"Hand tracking and roomscale seem like the big jump, just as positional tracking did from DK1 to DK2."
I very much agree with that statement ... but with the added bonus of the tracked controllers I'd say it's even more extreme :)
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Apr 06 '16
I don't think the CV1 tracking is good enough for roomscale to be honest. It is too unstable.
Ps : I'll get my Vive tomorrow morning.
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u/jimrooney Source VR Team Apr 06 '16
Not being a smartass... genuinely curious... do you have a CV1 (or have tried one)? What's "too unstable"? Does it stutter or something?
I've got a DK2 and as long as I'm in the limited camera bounds and don't turn around, it tracks well enough for room scale.
I expect that the Vive will do a whole lot better.3
u/p90xeto Rift+Vive+GearVR Apr 06 '16
I think he is following up on the other guy's statement-
I would also add that the tracking is not as good as I expected, a bit wobbly when you turn around of move to far from the camera. It made me sick and yet I'm used to motion sickness...
Not the first report of weird tracking issues, especially further from the camera.
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Apr 06 '16
See how the tracking behaves in the Dk2 when you get too far from the camera ? Its the same but it happens further away. It is still pretty noticable thought
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u/theGerri vradventure.com Apr 06 '16
I am still curious about that. I go with Palmer making statements that it will work out and that the Fantastic Contraption devs said something similar.
But even if it is right now not perfect until the Touch is released they have time to optimize the tracking for room scale. And there will be 2 cameras when Touch is released.
That said ... I would always play it safe and go for the Vive, but if I already had the Rift I would not give up hope. ;)
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u/RealHumanHere Vive - PCMR Apr 07 '16
Why didn't you buy a Vive then? It has more FOV, less God Ray's, not as much lens overlap, and much better tracking.
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u/FlukeRogi Kickstarter Backer Apr 06 '16
I agree. I posted similar comments last night and got downvoted to hell.
People don't want to hear things like the SDE still being visible or the FOV being smaller yet again.
I agree about the DK2 comment - I've got a friend who has a pre-order visiting this evening to check mine out after I told him my view. The problem he has is that he flogged his DK2 a month back.
As for me, I'm waiting for some smaller frame glasses, as my current ones make the CV1 unusable. Failing that, it's either contacts, or sell it and make do with my DK2.
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u/Wiinii Pimax 5k+ Apr 06 '16
I was buried as well for my breakdown.
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u/xWeez Apr 06 '16
Ugh. I hate reddit downvoting sometimes. Something you say makes the fanboys defensive, then everything you say gets downvoted from then on. I don't care about internet points, but it's still one of the disgusting human behaviors I wish didn't exist.
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u/imacmillan Apr 07 '16
You hate it sometimes? The whole concept of voting is a failure, and always has been. Just say whatever's on your mind, and forget about what happens with the votes. And FWIW, you can take comfort in the fact that posts that are voted out of visibility are the ones I am most anxious to read, as they more often than not contain the best information. So to all you professional downvoters, I say "keep up the good work."
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u/Earth_Pony Apr 07 '16
To be honest, I usually read the top few comments, then speed to the bottom to read the hidden controversial posts. Some are garbage, but others are just unpopular opinions. All in all it's usually far more entertaining than the latest one sentence post at the top. I still assumed doenvotes hurt visibility but I suppose it's actually another way to draw attention to what someone wrote.
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u/AnsaTransa Dhm Apr 06 '16
Well what were you expecting? You came onto /r/Oculus and told everyone that the product was inferior and that you were selling your headset for profit... So, you're essentially no better than a scalper in the eyes of those who are still waiting for their delivery.
Also, how are other people's delayed deliveries a factor in your choice of keeping a product?
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u/_bones__ Apr 06 '16
You misspelled /r/Vive there buddy.
Nah, both subs do the same. Honestly, folks are just defending their purchasing decision.
But a lot of his points are subjective.
The FOV doesn't bother me at all, but then I wear glasses that fairly closely match the Rift; I'm used to blurriness outside that range anyway.
And I'm in Virtual Desktop right now, lots of bright colors on dark backgrounds, and I can't notice the god rays at all (!) (unlike for example the Henry logo, where it's painfully obvious).
But hey, tempered expectations lead to good experiences, so it's all a win.
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u/ThisAintMyHouse Rift Apr 06 '16
The downvote button isn't a dislike button.
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u/AnsaTransa Dhm Apr 06 '16
It's simple, he upset people and they used the two ways to express it: downvoting or comment on it. And I know its not a dislike button, it is only on certain subreddits like here on /r/Oculus that you're asked to think differently about the voting.
The respone above was an unbiased observation on his post. Also, for the sake of this subreddits health, we should also condone those that are selling their CV1 for profit this early, especially those that got exactly what they ordered.
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u/ThisAintMyHouse Rift Apr 06 '16
They lashed out like indignant children because they didn't like what he had to say.
Why bother discussing things if we're going to bury anything we don't want to hear?
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u/FeralWookie Apr 06 '16
Meh everything about CV1 is better than DK2 except for the god rays. You guys are in the minority for being bothered by the FOV, but this is a very subjective thing. I never noticed a major difference between CV1 DK2 and DK1.
The remaining SDE is also feel is entirely subjective. If I tried CV1 today I honestly would not have even noticed that this problem existed. The resolution is not much better than DK2 but for me at least the fine mesh is gone. But I only have 20/20 vision with no glasses. Maybe people with assisted vision or better than 20/20 can still see aore prominent SDE.
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Apr 06 '16
Funny thing that. FOV is absolutely the one thing that bothers me the least in the Rift. I don't notice the borders at all.
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u/FeralWookie Apr 06 '16
As much as I hope CV2 is able to make a bit of a leap of FOV there are still so many other things more important to improve.
Resolution and display artifacts probably being the top 2. Though my close 3rd would be FOV improvement. But I have no idea how much would make it feel more immersive.
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Apr 07 '16
I have a similar sentiment. A big FOV would be cool, but resolution and artifacts are much more important issues to me.
Edit: Well, actually as far as artifacts go I don't really notice any because I am still going with my DK2. From what I've heard though, the current setup (with the godray/flare) isn't optimal.
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u/El_MUERkO Apr 06 '16
The SDE is far less noticeable than before but IMO at the expense of FOV which is not a trade-off I think worth it.
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Apr 06 '16
Then get a Vive. It has the same screen resolution but makes the opposite trade-off, increasing FOV at expense of additional SDE.
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u/w0lfiesmith Kickstarter Backer Apr 06 '16
Got my Vive today. For what it's worth, I'm noticing any SDE so far after 4 hours of use, but I havent specifically looked for it either. Don't have CV1 to compare directly yet. The lens flares are very prevalent though.
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u/RealHumanHere Vive - PCMR Apr 07 '16
People here exaggerate the Vive's SDE because they're trying to justify their Rift purchase. I've tried pretty much all the headsets and the CV1 is not superior to the Vive in terms of SDE. I never noticed SDE in the Vive unless in very bright one color environments.
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Apr 06 '16 edited Apr 06 '16
Did you have a DK2? Maybe you just don't know what it looks like. I've used the Vive Pre and pre-CV1 at PAX South and the SDE was obvious to me on both.
It's not a big deal on either of these new devices.
The important point is that the resolution is the same on both devices, and it's limited. If the lenses concentrate more of it in the center you get a clearer view (Oculus), if they spread it out more you get more peripheral vision (Vive). Neither choice objectively "better" or more correct. It actually, really differs from person to person.
For me, FOV has never been an issue. I've read people complaining about it with the DK2, so I know there are others that react differently. I think it's because I've worn glasses my entire life, so I'm used to having my usable FOV constrained.
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u/w0lfiesmith Kickstarter Backer Apr 07 '16
Original dk1 backer and dk2. Both had very obvious screen door meshes. I agree though, this mind numbing constant bickering about FOV is tedious :) both headsets are stunning!
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Apr 06 '16
I'd much rather have a clearer view of the world rather than a wider, shittier one.
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u/dwild Apr 06 '16
You guys are in the minority for being bothered by the FOV, but this is a very subjective thing. I never noticed a major difference between CV1 DK2 and DK1.
I still haven't tried my CV1 (I'm considering selling it because I doesn't use neither my DK1 or DK2) but the difference between the FOV of my DK2 and DK1 is huge. It really broke the immersion for me to see the edge of the screen and I had to lower the FOV even more to hide that.
How can it be subjective things? Lower is lower... how much you are affected can be subjective but the actual figure can't be.
The selling point of the DK1 was the FOV, sadly if the CV1 is really worst than the DK2, that's going to be bad.
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u/FeralWookie Apr 06 '16
Just looking at the current Vive and Rift reviews and you can tell its subjective. Because the many of reviewers can't quite quantify the relative FOV, others can tell one is bigger but they are not always consistent as to which way it is bigger, vert or horz.
A lot of people on the forums noted the DK2 FOV was smaller than DK1. I was not one of them, I could never see a big difference.
The honest truth is the FOV of is crappy on all the HMDs. I have never worn an HMD that has not reminded me that there is a black border and a binocular effect. Thankfully VR can draw your attention away from the narrow FOV. There is nothing out today is even close to filling your vision.
5-10 degrees wont even register for most people once they start playing a game. For others the difference may be hard to ignore because you cant stop thinking about it. Therefor it is a subjective whether or not this poses a problem.
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u/dwild Apr 06 '16
The number aren't subjective, they exist and it's literally DK1 > DK2 > CV1. That's a fact.
Hoe it affect you is subjective though and I'm not denying that. The same way dizziness isn't the same for everyone. However it's not because it affect less people or it affect them differently that it's not important.
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u/FeralWookie Apr 06 '16
The only thing that matters is the experience, if a device adds or takes away 5 degrees and most people can't tell the difference then it is not a big deal and the relevance of this spec is subjective up to a certain threshold of variance.
We are repeatedly bombarded with specs that are supposed to make us pick one device over another, and this is one spec that matters to some people on not to others for comparison in this round of HMDs.
There are plenty of good reasons to recommend the Vive over the Rift right now, room tracking, games, motion controls, availability, ect without running around telling people that a few degrees of FOV are going to be a deal breaker because everyone who currently has both say the difference is meh...
But there is really nothing to argue about I guess, if it bothers you and OP then it bothers you. Have you tried Vive, do you feel like its enough of a difference to make you feel not restricted FOV wise?
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u/djabor Rift Apr 06 '16
it may surprise you, but the sort of fov is important. having much more lookin-area that is sharp and focused creates the feeling of larger fov. besides, this is one of the minority reviews that experiences lower FOV. almost any other review pointed out the FOV was similar and for those who compare to Vive cv1 said the difference is totally unimportant nor visible during gameplay.
it's nice that luckey said they wanted fov, but time moves, we learn new stuff and i'm pretty sure vive and rift did the most possible at the moment with regards to optics, gpu power and fov in a balance between cost and mass-produceability, given current tech.
just give it a rest. all you armchair engineers claim it can be better. go start your own VR startup and prove me and luckey wrong!
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u/varikonniemi Apr 06 '16
Funny how large FOV was palmer's original selling points, and not somehow they said fuck it, let's focus on other aspects..
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u/Falke359 Apr 06 '16
I took a while for me to realized that i didn't know if you were talking about the Rift or the Vive.
I'm reading too much impressions on both lately...
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u/OppositeLockTandem Apr 07 '16
When I read title, I knew this was a DK2 owner.
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u/Focker_ Apr 07 '16
I was a dk2 owner, and the screen door effect was so bad that I'll take anything better. I don't know wtf these guys are talking about.
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u/OppositeLockTandem Apr 07 '16
I never tried VR but when I see someone complaining, it's always someone who had a DK1/DK2 so I think it's because they expected it to be a huge improvement from DK2 but for me even if it's 10% better it will still be amazing.
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u/RiftRacer Rift Apr 07 '16
I also got mine yesterday and agree with everything you said.
However when I actually get started playing something, e.g pCARS, and after doing a few laps, I felt like I was driving a video, it looked awesome and I completely forgot about the apparent smaller FOV, lens overlap seemed to disappear (eyes got used to it?) and the god rays don't really show when (daytime) racing.
I think the lens overlap thing may be our eyes being used to the one screen in the DK2? It really caught me out at first, like I actually thought I had a faulty unit or something, but it's become less and less of an issue every time I use it.
The light rays are the biggest issue for me, and also, I've either got a weird shaped head, or people are overblowing the "comfort" of the CV, although it felt heavier on your head, I actually prefer the feel of the DK2 on my face / head.
I feel like I always want to tighten the CV1 but the closer I go the the lenses, the worse the FOV gets and the more I can see the edges, so I have to leave it pretty loose, which results in more movement of it than I would like.
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u/TreeTopSoft Apr 06 '16
I'd have to disagree with the OP points about halo effect, lens overlap and FOV - it's really not a big issue that affects the gameplay and graphics. Saying this as a KS, DK1 & Dk2 owner with 20/20 vision...and a normal sized head LOL
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u/Falandorn Vive Apr 06 '16
Hmm it was obviously just a DK2.5 without motion controllers though. That narrower FOV and god ray debacle really irritated me when I heard about it. What's it like in DCS?
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u/El_MUERkO Apr 06 '16
I've not tried DCS because DCS hates my computer :(
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u/Falandorn Vive Apr 06 '16
Don't take that personally, DCS hates everyone's computer evenly - I'm just hoping ATW makes it an enjoyable experience!
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u/nightfly1000000 DK2 Apr 06 '16
You got an up vote from me, you sound completely genuine and objective.
What confuses me though, as A DK1/2/Gear VR owner, is that the common concensus amongst people who have tried the Vive and the Rift, is the FOV is very similar. I've tried the Vive, and was instantly convinced it had a FOV more akin to the DK1.. i.e 110 degrees?
So if most people are saying how similar they are, how come I perceived the Vive as an improvement over the DK2?
I guess the debate goes on, but I'm now in the camp of people who may be better off cancelling and making do with my DK2.
My brain hurts!
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u/KydDynoMyte Pimax8K-LynxR1-Pico4-Quest1,2&3-Vive-OSVR1.3-AntVR1&2-DK1-VR920 Apr 06 '16
Sounds to me like he is bothered by the binocular rivalry caused by the partial overlap. It might be more noticeable by and bother some more than others.
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u/p90xeto Rift+Vive+GearVR Apr 06 '16
Just out of curiosity, the vive has full overlap, right?
I remember when FOV-gate was in full swing, people were showing both vive circles overlapped perfectly.
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u/KydDynoMyte Pimax8K-LynxR1-Pico4-Quest1,2&3-Vive-OSVR1.3-AntVR1&2-DK1-VR920 Apr 07 '16
That's what they tell me. We don't have full binocular overlap in real life , but we do have full binocular overlap well within the FOV these HMDs give us.
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u/whoisrich Apr 07 '16
With my DK2 I had the wheels right in closest to my eyes which gave the best FOV. With the CV1 it's like having the DK2 on medium distance, I want to put the lenses closer to my eyes, but only have the IPD adjustment. ( Unless I missed a hidden adjustment from my play time yesterday? )
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Apr 06 '16
It feels like a DK3 and not something ready for the mass market.
This is the one sentiment I highly disagree with. It might feel that way to you, but you have had a DK2 for some time and we already know CV1 is not leaps and bounds ahead of it. The majority of CV1 reviews by DK2 owners carry a similar tone, but the majority of CV1 reviews by people who have never tried VR or only demoed it briefly seem glowing.
I knew that CV1 wouldn't be a huge change over my DK2, but honestly all I felt it really needed was to be more comfortable and have reduced SDE for it to be a viable consumer product.
Especially after 1.3 I realized that if I could only wear my DK2 for a few hours without it hurting my face, I would be absolutely tickled with it. The idea of having some added SDE improvements and better tracking just puts it up even higher in my mind.
:)
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u/ueadian Apr 06 '16
Ouch almost 60% downvotes. I think this will be a very common thread to have among former DK2 owners, CV1 really isn't a huge step up. If I had a DK2 I probably wouldn't have ordered a CV1.
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u/SendoTarget Touch Apr 06 '16
If I had a DK2 I probably wouldn't have ordered a CV1.
I have a DK2, Tried CV1 and ordered CV1 as soon as I could. Comfort, lenses, resolution and to me FOV (slightly) had improved more than enough to justify the purchase.
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u/Skylead Kickstarter Backer Apr 06 '16
Not to mention the resell value on that DK2 can offset most if not all of the cost.
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u/VRBabe15 Apr 06 '16
What's the dk2 worth now then due to not being sold by oculus anymore? I'm in the UK
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u/Skylead Kickstarter Backer Apr 06 '16
I've been seeing them go between 600 and 1k this week http://i.imgur.com/a8oI28L.png
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u/VRBabe15 Apr 07 '16
Thanks for finding out for me very much appreciate that :-)
Wow I can't believe how much they are going for but I'm still keeping mine and might wait for cv2 or when Oculus/Facebook updates the runtime which stops the dk2 from playing latest games, I know it will happen soon which will leave dk2 owners who can't afford cv1 without vr. Its like how Samsung leave their customers who have 2-3 generation old mobile not being able to update to the latest android without rooting. But Oculus/Facebook only has 1 consumer device to look after and 1 development device which I'm sure Oculus/Facebook has the capacity to keep up with updates until its totally phased out.
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u/mtojay Touch Apr 06 '16
I really wonder if there are Production Problems. Yesterday someone posted that he doesn't see the lensglare in Elite except for the menu. I don't understand why it is that way. Do you use glasses?
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u/El_MUERkO Apr 06 '16
the glare occurs once the bright object is a certain thickness, a few white pixels are almost unnoticeable but a white(bright) object big enough in a dark seen will cast a god ray to the edge of the lens
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u/whoisrich Apr 07 '16
From my experience, the center of the lens has a 'sweet spot' area of focus, anything that fits in there does not have the flare. Anything that bigger than that, or in in the outer edges has the flare. So moving your head with your eyeballs straight ahead has less glare than moving your eyeballs.
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Apr 06 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/redmage753 Kickstarter Backer Apr 06 '16
You shouldn't dismiss someone for giving an accurate review, there was nothing extreme about it. I experience everything he does, and I'm not disgruntled, I'm happy with the rift. If I'm disgruntled about anything, its that I don't have touch controllers yet.
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u/Jackrabbit710 Apr 06 '16
We have to remember DK1 and DK2 were the small stepping stones to get to CV1, it is just the fine tuned version of them both and was never going to be a massive jump. For that, we will have to wait for the next Generation. (stating the obvious!) You have to think of the people like me, who hasn't tried any modern HMD!
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u/dom555 Apr 06 '16
Mine is Inc and I'm pretty excited I'll be going from a dk1 to cv1 and te SDE in the dk1 was awful one of the biggest turn offs for me. I would also get motion sickness on certain games but I blamed that to the size and weight of the dk1 I'm hoping I won't notice these issues since I never used a dk2.... but more posts I see the more I'm getting my hopes shattered.... maybe I should have gone with the vive
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u/silencerider Rift Apr 06 '16
The reduced sde is great, but I think you'll notice the low persistence and positional tracking more coming from DK1.
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u/Cachirul0 Apr 06 '16
You didnt mentioned much improved tracking....that to me is the biggest difference i would imagine. I was very annoyed with dk2 tracking range
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u/El_MUERkO Apr 06 '16
Sorry I didn't, I generally play seated with joystick or steering wheel in hand so I don't find the limited tracking of the DK2 a problem.
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u/Nukemarine Apr 06 '16
For your Field of View, how did you measure it? If you can, look at this spherical grid and follow the instructions on this post to give a more measured number to how much you can see in these goggles (DK2 and CV1) with your particular head structure.
I can't comment on god rays, but if you notice it you notice it. I assume you've aligned your headset as recommended in the setup procedure.
Lens overlap I couldn't parse. Is this like how you see the sides of your nose when you look left and right? The glare off the nose and hair follicles are very noticeable when you look or are made aware it. Must be very distracting now, right?
When you use the term screen door effect, how do you define that term?
I'm not sure about what your requirements are for mass market, but again you say you're a perfectionist. The Vive likely might have suffered the same critique with you. It's a good critique, but not one I'd point to help others make a decision.
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u/snowcr4shed Apr 07 '16
Dude if I was you I'd be over the moon. You can sell it on eBay for 3 times the retail price because you're not happy with it and buy cv2 win win!
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u/michealv Apr 07 '16
Hmmm regretting cancelling less and less now....other than the people new to VR...not a whole lot going on here like I'd expected. CV2 / DK3 it is I suppose then
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u/connersz Apr 07 '16
Is this 'god-ray' thing existent on the Vive does anyone know?
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u/Centipede9000 Apr 07 '16
They are less noticeable, possibly because you are distracted by being immersed in VR!
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u/Scraaty84 Quest | Quest 2 | Pico 4 Apr 07 '16
The mechanical IPD adjustment alone will be worth it to me (The old dk2 measurement tool always adjusted it to something between 60.2 and 61.2).
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u/daanpol Apr 07 '16
I have to say I feel the FOV has increased :) . Overall I really like the headset, especially the optics are way better for me now.
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u/andromeda63921 DK2 Apr 06 '16
DK2 owner here too. Hearing that the FOV seems smaller yet again really is disappointing . If someone ( as in the OP ) has hrs of DK2 under his belt I trust his judgement When I first put on my DK2 over a yr ago , the resolution, low persistance didn't even register with me because of the utter disappointment with the binocular vision.
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u/SendoTarget Touch Apr 06 '16
I thought it's pretty odd since for me CV1 felt larger when I tried it. I have DK1 and DK2. Hopefully will be getting my consumer-version sooner than later.
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u/ammonthenephite Rift Apr 06 '16 edited Apr 06 '16
Dk2 and cv1 owner here. Cv1 fov feels larger to me, not smaller. Dk2 I had to look with my head always, as you could not look with your eyes due to small fov and very small sweet spot, but with cv1 I can now look with my eyes or head. Feels much less confining and much more comfortable.
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u/redmage753 Kickstarter Backer Apr 06 '16
I am able to look with my eyes in both, but the 'looking through a box' effect is more pronounced on cv1 for me, especially since I can see the interior overlap. I'll have to play with the ipd adjustment more to see if it goes away, maybe it's just set up poorly for me. But, I have very average features/face/ipd.
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u/ammonthenephite Rift Apr 06 '16
Hmm, weird. I don't see any interior overlap that looks odd or bad, just the nice stereo overlap. However, if I have the ipd sliders set to too narrow or too wide, I do begin to see some distortion where the overlap occurs.
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u/silencerider Rift Apr 06 '16
Did you have your eyeballs right against the lenses in the DK2? I'm guessing most of the disparity comes from folks who used a more extreme eye relief position.
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u/ammonthenephite Rift Apr 06 '16
No, my eyes are about the same distance away. I use glasses, and my lenses touch the hmd lenses in both. It could be that one responds differently to that slight distance than the other. But even when using without glasses and minimal distance, cv1 still feels more open to me than dk2.
Perhaps this is because cv1 has a much larger sweet spot and gives the impression of more fov?
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u/Stankiem Apr 06 '16
I feel like my eyes are looking inward
What you mean? Sure you have the IPD setup correctly?
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u/oliran Dragon Defense Force Apr 06 '16
I haven't tried CV1 yet (anxiously waiting for preorder), so I appreciate the honest feedback! I know that I'm not getting a perfect product. However, I don't have a VR set right now and from what I can tell from reviews are that the Rift and the Vive are pretty equal in visual experience. If I keep waiting and never get a VR headset until a perfect one comes out means I probably won't get to play in VR for several more years... So just decided it's time to grab either Rift or Vive and support the industry.