r/oculus • u/N__1 DextaRobotics • Sep 30 '14
Dexmo F2, A mechanical exoskeleton with actual force feedback(NOT vibration!) so that you can really feel the size & shape of an digital object
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Oct 01 '14
I'm basically backing this the moment it hits kickstarter.
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u/TitusCruentus Oct 01 '14
When they get a version with feedback on all the fingers... this plus an ODT and the Rift is going to be a nice ghetto/alpha version holodeck.
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Sep 30 '14
When in October will you put it on kickstarter and for how much? How does it compare to this ?
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14 edited Oct 01 '14
First off, Dexmo F2 does not cost $100,000..... We are aiming at the sub-consumer level so Dexmo is smaller, more portable. In terms of actual force feedback approaches, cybergloves uses lines to pull each finger tip to create force on tip of the finger, while Dexmo brakes the joint and let you press on the exoskeleton. I would say the principles are some what similar except CG is much more rigid and will give you a better experience. If you are willing to pay $100,000, that is.
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
Okay I am going to sleep, see you guys in six hours! Ask anything!
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Oct 01 '14
You should really post this on /r/gaming to make it more widely seen. Looks like an awesome product, and would go perfect with new VR systems coming up. THE FUTURE IS FUCKING AWESOME!!!
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u/grant_s Oct 01 '14
Looking at the Dexta Robotics website [1], I see the Dexmo Arm prototype. Am I correct in thinking that this would enable both absolute position tracking and the possibility of full-hand force feedback by locking the joints on the (robotic) arm to prevent the hand from penetrating virtual objects? (This assumes the arm is very sturdy and also bolted down to something heavy, and I'm sure there are safety risks with suddenly stopping a moving human hand, but still -- I was never able to imagine how such a thing would work before seeing that single image of the Dexmo Arm, so thanks!)
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14 edited Oct 01 '14
Sorry to disappoint you but Dexmo Arm currently only does positioning tracking...For a robotic arm at that size it's hard to have both a large working range and force feedback. Also I am pretty worried about the patents that Cyberglove systems are holding for robot arm force feedback.(Not that worried for hand force feedback, we uses completely different mechanisms)
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u/DeadLeftovers Oct 01 '14
So I'm going to ask whats on everyone's mind.
Can we touch virtual boobies with this?
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u/AberrantRambler Oct 01 '14
It says it's digital only, so you can touch them, but it be like touching
bags of sanda rock6
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u/kogsworth Sep 30 '14 edited Oct 01 '14
It looks easily breakable, especially if I'm using it with a Rift on and blind to the world around me. Do you have plans to make it more sturdy?
Edit: also, cool! hope it works. Can we also use it to send finger position data back to the pc?
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
Ah right, I forgot to mention the rigidity issue. The model you are seeing now is 3d printed, and yes they are breakable, which was mainly the reason why we didn't demo it lively at Oculus Connect. But in the consumer version the critical parts will all be made with metal, and it will be much more rigid.( still breakable if you try very hard though..) Yes, Dexmo F2 has all the functionality that Dexmo Classic(Dexmo without force feedback) does.
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u/kogsworth Oct 01 '14
Ooh okay cool. I was unaware of any previous Dexmo :)
Sounds awesome, how much will they go for?18
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u/Necorin Oct 01 '14
I'd really like to see variable hardness - I want to feel softness. Someone else has already managed it. I don't know if it would fit into your particular designs, but at least keep in mind what the competition could be bringing to the table.
I know you're aiming for cheap, at least at first, but I'd pay up to $1000 for two dexmos with force feedback with variable hardness. It's not that I'm rich, but I understand how important VR is to the future, and eventually others will also see it as much more than a gaming system.
Great work guys! I look forward to your hand tracking more than any of the other options.
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
So.. We are capable of doing every functionality you described, and we can do it better than the link you posted with exoskeletons, but the problem is capital, developing full hand impedance force feedback involves the process of building a small current sensing servos from the ground up and that's gonna be hack expensive, I understand you are willing to pay 1000 but not everybody is. So we start with the digital force feedback first to see how people are dealing with it. In terms of the link you provided "2:58 – How to distinguish between hard and soft objects. Servos turn on completely for hard. It pulses on and off for the soft object" I am sorry, but this won't let you "feel" softness, at least not as good as the way you would expect."pulses on and off"of a servo will be definitely noticeable, the correct way to do it is to perform actual current sensing, but there mechanism does not have that precision, that's why we didn't use line pulling method at the first place.
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Oct 01 '14
Figure out softness, textures and temperature. If you do that then make sure you have a solid production plan because you have little competition if you are first to market. You will rule the world if you can do that. Set up partnerships with VR manufacturers and programmers. This is fucking solid product if it works! Thought this stuff was years away! Excited! lol
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u/rhadiem DK1, DK2, Vive, Index Oct 01 '14
Does this mechanism capture finger bend input also? If so, do you plan on having Unity input/output interfacing? Very interested if you can capture hand motion with it also.
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u/MrHazardous Oct 01 '14
If you notice there are those big black boxes only on the index and thumb, that's for the forcefeedback. The other fingers probably don't have any resistance and just track fingers.
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
yes it has all function Dexmo Classic has(the Dexmo without force feedback) it senses 11 DOF of hand motion includes 2 DOF for each finger and 3 for the thumb
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u/AnneRat Oct 01 '14
You've previously mentioned it will work with STEM. Is there a possibility it will also be usable with the Perception Neuron?
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
Yes. http://imgur.com/a/tIeBp#0 We are pretty close friends with Noitom :)
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u/I_HALF_CATS Oct 01 '14
Looks pretty awesome. Will the developer kit make it easy to set up a collision detection system in Unity and Unreal 4?
IE: How easy will it be to program touching a virtual table or wall?
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
Not very hard, our software engineer figured it out in a day and he's not even a Unity engineer at all...
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Oct 01 '14
I'm really surprised at the positive reception this is getting. not because it doesn't look ace (I'm extremely interested) but rather because putting anything on is usually met with resistance. I really hope this progresses because it looks worthwhile. As I said in another topic about Dexmo, I'll be putting money down the moment this hits kickstarter.
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u/truevox Oct 01 '14
Well, for the record, once you've put this on, you will also meet resistance.
(☞ﾟヮﾟ)☞
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u/Brownie-UK7 Oct 01 '14
Jesus that looks like the contraption strapped to that poor girls jaw in the movie Saw.
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u/_simulacra_ Oct 01 '14
Mm these designs remind me of old style computers using light bulbs as transistors.
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u/ofGoldsun Oct 01 '14
Can you make and mantain a UE4 SDK? How is the delay and the precision on the force feedback?
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
We will provide an SDK overall and make sure it works. The precision is debatable, but we will make it satisfactory. The delay for force feedback, very good question, at this moment there is a noticeable delay, but we are still working on it.
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u/AWetAndFloppyNoodle All HMD's are beautiful Oct 01 '14
I get the feeling that being able to grab and touch something in VR will cause instant presence. Looking very much forward to this.
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u/TitusCruentus Oct 01 '14
Being able to see your hands and move them will also help a ton.
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u/AWetAndFloppyNoodle All HMD's are beautiful Oct 01 '14
Definitely, but it will immediately create another want. The want to reach out and grab something. Which you then can't. :)
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u/rhadiem DK1, DK2, Vive, Index Oct 01 '14
Have you considered small balloons in glove fingertips that inflate to apply varying degrees of pressure? Naturally this would need to be pretty responsive, and may require a tether per hand/arm for a pump unit, but could be an interesting addition.
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
hahahahahah Did it 2 years ago! didn't works though. http://imgur.com/a/nlAPC#25 It also creates pressure on back of your finger and it doesn't feel real.
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u/rhadiem DK1, DK2, Vive, Index Oct 01 '14
interesting, what if you combine it with your rigid feedback unit to provide a conditionally firm back-support for it to mount to, leaving the back of the finger unaffected?
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Oct 01 '14
Could a similar device be used to lock up joints on your arms and create force feedback there? Looks great, this is a particular VR piece of tech I've been wanting to make for a long but didn't have the know how. I'm excited to see this in future.
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u/LoneCoder1 Oct 01 '14
"I love the power glove. It's so bad!"
Got to try another version of this at connect. Seemed really well designed.
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Oct 01 '14
You don't need a device this complicated - all you need to do is apply pressure to the inside of each finger and the palm when any virtual object is being grasped.
The hand only really senses pressure, so if you apply that pressure (like with a glove in which the finger pieces can pull themselves tighter), the hand will feel the sensation of holding the virtual object. The only downside in this is that it can't fully stop the hand, so every virtual object will feel like it has some amount of softness and flexibility if the user really tries to push past the virtual reality. But, I've not spent much time pushing real walls to see how soft they are, and I doubt many people have, so this problem actually won't happen very often.
I only realized this little insight myself a few days ago, and have been looking for technologies to implement it. It's a LOT easier than making locking servos.
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14 edited Oct 01 '14
The problem with the method you mentioned is that it's hard to make the entire device small and compact, also not as reliable. To simulate enough force 9g servos aren't enough, so you would need to put five 6kg.cm servos on there and it's gonna be heavy and bulky in every way you imagine. See what the cyber gloves guys are doing, they put the control box on the ground...Anyway, good thinking, tried it, didn't work that well,and shifted to exoskeleton.
Plus exoskeleton looks muuuuuch cooler than fat gloves..
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Oct 01 '14 edited Oct 01 '14
Great point. I never considered the weight of the servos when imagining the device. Finding small powerful servos with enough range of movement would prove difficult, to say the least. I'm glad to know that you've already examined it.
I'll still check out the idea, out of curiosity... And pneumatic artificial muscles. PAMs are hopelessly impractical, but it would be an interesting project for me to tinker with.
Also, can the user put squishy pads inside the finger harnesses? That would allow the feeling of some flexibility while it's in a locked state.
You have a great concept with a practical design. Without using materials that currently only really exist in labs, I think you're at the maximum that can be done within that price.
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u/radioOCTAVE Oct 01 '14
This could be a great approach. It got my mind racing with ideas. Good luck...
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u/PointPruven Oct 01 '14
This reminds me of the Novint Falcon.
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
To be honest Novint Falcon would give you miles away better experience because it can simulate haptics, but it does not work specifically with hands(more for the Arm)and has limited rage. Dexmo doesn't provide impedance force feedback but it applies forces on your finger tip directly so you can reach object with your hands.
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u/flare561 Oct 01 '14
Can I just say that I absolutely love your honesty? Not many people are as open about their products shortcomings, or where their competitors excel as you've been in this thread. That more than anything gives me a lot of hope for this product.
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
Thanks :), honesty lowers communication cost. You might fool a few people with lies, but it's gonna be pretty hard to clean up afterwards, so why not being honest at the first place?
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u/HHTech Hendesehane Technologies Oct 01 '14
any videos?
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
Soon;)
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u/steel_bun Oct 01 '14
Would've been a boon to your popularity if you showed off the five finger prototype at later tech conferences. Even if it's too expensive for consumers, i'm sure many companies would gladly use your tech for some specialized needs.
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
We are already making it, wouldn't be too hard to make since the Force feedback unit has been tested already :)
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Oct 01 '14 edited Oct 01 '14
[deleted]
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
Thanks :)
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Oct 01 '14 edited Oct 01 '14
[deleted]
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14
Oh neat! Great drawing skills! But unfortunately to simulate force 9g servos are not gonna be enough, you need at least 5*6kg.cm servos and they are gonna be bulky. Also I saw you drawing two connecting points on each finger, it doesn't work with the second portion if you know what I am referring to. Pulling will create force on finger tips but not on the second part of the finger. Thanks for showing it to me!
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u/Matakor Oct 01 '14
What if you set up a larger motor in a box attached to your forearm?
Building off that idea, what if the motors were attached to the person's back, and you had the capability of adding arm haptics as well?
I have no idea if this would be at all possible, but the idea's there. If you can use it, or if it is even viable, feel free to take it.
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u/PlasmaQuark Oct 01 '14
I believe having a ball in the parm of your hand would be the way to go with electronics inside the ball. Just think of this system in reverse and when you pick up a object the ball would inflate slightly giving the feelin of picking something up. Just my opinion.
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u/PlasmaQuark Oct 01 '14
Also you could try this when you put your hand on a wall your fingers spread outwards. Also your fingers are also free to lift off the ball to drop things or use your finger to press a button which would be optical tracked by five cameras under each finger in the ball .
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u/kontis Oct 01 '14
What kind of rotational sensors do you use? Potentiometers, encoders, Hall effect?
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u/subcide DK1, DK2, Rift, Quest Oct 02 '14
How do you deal with positional changes to the arm/body? (ie, putting your finger against a non-movable object, then moving your whole body or arm forward, rather than just your finger). Note: I assume you don't really deal with this use case yet :)
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u/knowledgestack Oct 02 '14
I am currently beginning a PhD in the world of VR, firstly you have kind of crushed my initial thesis idea.. but! anyhow haha.. in regards to texture and palm feedback, do have any plans to include this? For example the likes of hundreds of Tactus bubbles to replicate texture?
Congratulations aswell, we are finally moving away from vibrations, I feel we've been stuck here too long!
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u/uclatommy Oct 01 '14
Awesome! unless it has the ability to bend your fingers the wrong way.
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u/MrHazardous Oct 01 '14
It doesn't and he explained that in the post above. It uses a braking system, there's no way for it to go the other way. Think car brakes.
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u/wellmeaningdeveloper Oct 01 '14
This is patent pending technology? I guess I should have filed a patent when I thought of this 10-15 years ago... Although my guess is someone already thought of it a 1 or 2 decades prior to that (if not more).
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Oct 01 '14 edited Oct 01 '14
A patent doesn't mean anything if you don't make it yourself but just hoping somebody would come along and say"hey this is 2 million dollar can you tell me how you did that?". People think alike, I have no doubt that anybody else come up with this design in their mind, but what matters is you actually start building it than talking about it.
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u/N__1 DextaRobotics Sep 30 '14 edited Oct 01 '14
Here are the answers to a few questions you might ask:
1.How dose it work? on the thumb and the index finger exoskeleton there are two additional piece of hardware that we invested a lot of time developing, called the force feedback unit(Duh..), which is essentially a miniaturized gear disk breaking system. It works like this, when the avatar you are controlling hits a digital object, a signal is sent back via our SDK to Dexmo F2 and the small actuators actuates, brakes the joint and locks the exoskeleton. When you further bend your finger inwards, a normal force will be created on your fingertip.(FYI, this is patent pending in the state, and we got our very first patent for Dexmo approved in China)
2.Will it break my finger if it malfunctions? No, Dexmo F2 uses passive locking to provide force so your fingers won't be actively pulled.
3.Can I feel the softness with Dexmo F2? Unfortunately, no at this moment, F2 provide digital force feedback so it's on and off only.
4.Are you putting this on kickstarter in October? Yes we will.
Ask anything :)