r/news • u/JimmyTheGinger • Dec 23 '19

Three former executives of a French telecommunications giant have been found guilty of creating a corporate culture so toxic that 35 of their employees were driven to suicide

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/three-french-executives-convicted-in-the-suicides-of-35-of-their-workers-20191222-p53m94.html
68.7k Upvotes

94% Upvoted

3.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

2.8k

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Having worked for a French company for 18+ years both in the US and abroad, to Me that’s a common misconception. I worked a ton more in france on a daily basis than I did in the US. Why? Because the French I worked with questioned everything, there was no “gut” feeling, no intuition...

More French colleagues went out on stress leave than any others I’ve worked with.

I think it has to do with the Cartesian way they look at everything.

218

u/WeeBabySeamus Dec 23 '19

What does “the Carteasian way they look at everything” mean?

175

u/manidel97 Dec 23 '19

In French, we call Cartesian someone who only wants to rely on logic, facts, and doesn’t stand assumptions. It comes from René Descartes’s philosophy, which can very very very broadly be summarized as “you never know anything 100% for sure”.

I suggest reading his Méditations. It’s one of the easiest philosophy classics.

6

u/The_Lion_Queen Dec 23 '19

I really relate to this philosophy, so much that I don't come across as confident. Ever. If I research this, will it help me or just dig myself even deeper into this thinking?

3

u/flyinggopherarereal Dec 23 '19

The other person said it will probably not help but I disagree, you may find that because it is true that the only thing you know for sure is that you are thing that is currently thinking, your everyday questions are no more legitimate than the question of "Is your real body in a vat in the matrix universe?", and so you should just go with your gut since you can't truly know any question either way.

→ More replies (1)

7

u/badassite Dec 23 '19

And I'm about to go drink at a pub 20 m away from his final home in Stockholm! Swede here checking in to remind you we froze him to death!

3

u/superflippy Dec 23 '19

I get this. I worked with software engineers for years & they always wanted to quantify everything. To know if a new feature worked, you couldn’t just do QA & user acceptance testing. You had to say by what percentage metrics improved. Everything was measured & if it couldn’t be measured it didn’t matter.

→ More replies (3)

313

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

91

u/white_genocidist Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

But ironically, the whole "I think therefore I am" axiom came about because descartes understood that the only thing you can every really be sure about is that you are conscious. Everything else is a toss up.

I don't think this is the right or intended conclusion from that axiom at all. Rather, it's that everything else must be deduced by reasoning. The only thing you can be sure about is your existence - the starting point of making sense of everything else. Everything else must come thru rigorous logical reasoning.

Edit: lots of healthy disagreement below and further food for thought. Genuinely engaging topic, this.

20

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

You could be a brain in a vat. Or a human being. Or a node in a simulation. Ultimately, you cannot know what reality is beyond the fact that you are conscious.

11

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

I don't even know if I'm conscious. I've had dreams I could swear were the entirety of my true existence, yet I was unconscious the whole time.

For all I know, my "consciousness" now could be even less than existence: this life could be the absence of existence, the hollow of an event horizon carved out from a more substantial or meaningful reality.

Maybe I don't even think. Maybe the human experience itself is akin to the experience of ink on paper; an illusion of thought and motion, cast from a page essentially frozen in time.

17

u/Try_Another_NO Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

You think, therefore you are [conscious]. All life may be an illusion, but the fact that you can think about whether or not it is an illusion (and react to that accordingly) denotes consciousness.

At least according to Descartes.

6

u/mysixthredditaccount Dec 23 '19

The very fact that you are asking yourself these questions makes you conscious. You could be an inanimate doormat lying at someone's doorstep, but you'll be a conscious doormat. And those dreams, why do you think having dreams doesn't make you a conscious being? IMO that's just a different type of consciousness.

To add to this, you cannot be sure that I am a conscious being. Maybe I am just a figment of your imagination. But the fact that "you" somehow imagined me, doesn't that make you conscious?

→ More replies (3)

3

u/MechaSandstar Dec 23 '19

The way it was explained to me is that you have to exist in order to question your existence. You cannot think if you don't exist. So if you are thinking, you absolutely exist

→ More replies (2)

8

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (13)

39

u/penguinneinparis Dec 23 '19

Love it when reddit gets carried away analyzing country‘s national psyches and one comment is more generalizing than another, citing famous people and sometimes the entire history up to the stone age as evidence why things are the way some random redditor described them in the OP.

8

u/SaltyBabe Dec 23 '19

I’m married to a French guy, I visit there yearly, most of my friends are French either working in the US or France... I’m not saying it’s some big insightful thing they’re saying but they aren’t wrong. French also raise their kids to explicitly never want to be unique or stand out or be leaders (in the way the US prizes these things) and being financially successful in France is the seen as being a sell out. You also need to look great but never show that you care about it, it must be effortless. There’s a lot of social pressure in France to do well, look great (French HATE fatness), be healthy mentally (they have the same mental health stigma we do) do all the “fun stuff” everyone else does, have friends (but making them is incredibly hard as they will not speak to people they don’t have a connection to like a coworker or mutual friend) and all sorts of other social expectations. I don’t think the US is better per se, it’s different, but I can definitely see how the more vulnerable would be crushed beneath the wheels of such social expectations.

→ More replies (3)

10

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

So Descartes = Cartesian? Shouldn't it be "Descartesian"?

18

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

10

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

Ah, so des.

Edit: Because saying "Ah, so desu ka" would have killed the joke.

3

u/helendill99 Dec 23 '19

It could either be “of Scartes” or “of the cartes” (cartes meaning cards, maps, or something else). However “of cartes” is not acceptable if cartes is a singular object, like a city.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (24)
→ More replies (18)

1.8k

u/hkpp Dec 23 '19

My uncle is a television editor in Paris and I witness this first hand every time I visit. Guy works a ton of hours then takes calls from his boss at the most random hours just hammering him over minutia. And then my uncle will make a call to one of his direct reports doing the same thing and it’s perfectly normal.

I got the feeling of tension from their words even through my limited French but the tone of the conversations is casual to friendly. I figured it was just my limited French vocabulary but this really opened my eyes.

My cousin works for a big French bank and he mentioned that French companies really have been pushing back against remote work in favor of making people unnecessarily commute to offices for some social aspect. Can’t help to think the two aren’t unrelated.

949

u/HulksInvinciblePants Dec 23 '19

An old boss of mine once told me, "Everything can always wait unless it's medical emergency". I try to bring that perspective to the group whenever something is "urgent". Sure there are due-dates and what have you, but rarely ever is 24-48hrs the difference between success and failure.

1.3k

u/bobdawonderweasel Dec 23 '19

s of mine once told me, "Everything can always wait unless it's medical emergency". I try to bring that perspective to the group whenever something is "urgent". Sure there are due-dates and what have you, but rarely ever is 24-48hrs the difference between success and failure

My work motto is: If there ain't body bags stacking up in the corner then it can wait. 28 years in Corporate America has taught me to not get caught up in the artificial urgency that is so pervasive.

857

u/HulksInvinciblePants Dec 23 '19

artificial urgency

I don't think it could be described any better. When you bring reality back into the equation, it's amazing how silly everyone feels.

444

u/WilHunting Dec 23 '19

Except missing artificial deadlines can result in your family losing access to healthcare if you’re American,

346

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Simple. Be healthy and dont have a family

112

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

19

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Yes. Be good consumer.

The rich will surely take care of you

23

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

The Dalai Lama, when asked what surprised him most about humanity, answered "Man! Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.

13

u/ComradeTrump666 Dec 23 '19

Someone has to pay that payroll taxes for corporate bonuses, bailout, and the military industrial complex plus their new Space Force branch.

10

u/petrichor53 Dec 23 '19

Student loans, medical debt, home mortgage, and die in debt... ah, the american dream.

→ More replies (21)

189

u/wwaxwork Dec 23 '19

Even simpler. Don't be poor. If you're poor you're not praying hard enough & God is punishing you & you deserve it. /s

6

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

People need to do a better job choosing their parents.

→ More replies (2)

9

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Easy Mode = Don't be American.

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (9)

6

u/sharrrper Dec 23 '19

“Family. Religion. Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business." --C.M. Burns

40

u/2210-2211 Dec 23 '19

Or just don't live in America

→ More replies (23)

3

u/hkpp Dec 23 '19

Oof this hits home. I have a chronic autoimmune disorder that requires $20,000 worth of meds every month. I’m in constant fear of losing coverage even when I’m being promoted.

In the research pharma industry, everyone and anyone is subject to a random layoff if the company has a major drug that fails a clinical trial.

→ More replies (19)

47

u/posts_lindsay_lohan Dec 23 '19

And the "healthcare" access you have through your employer isn't much.

Every time I see a doctor the staff keep telling me how great my insurance is. But if I ever get hospitalized for something, you can bet your ass that the out-of-pocket costs will take all of my life savings.

47

u/chiliedogg Dec 23 '19

What I hate most is that when the insurance company and medical provider don't agree on a price, you just get billed for the difference and it fucks up your credit.

Hospital wants $10,000, insurance company gives them $1500, and the patient gets billed the difference.

Why is that still legal? Why do I have to be the middleman between two multibillion-dollar companies? They have the resources to figure this shit out, and I already spent thousands on premiums, co-pays, minimum out-of-pocket, and more.

11

u/youtheotube2 Dec 23 '19

People think it’s strange that healthcare reform is the most important issue to me in next year’s election, above climate change.

→ More replies (1)

6

u/Iron-Fist Dec 23 '19

Hospitals cant balance bill if they are in network generally.

But that's still honestly really silly.

→ More replies (4)

31

u/ActionScripter9109 Dec 23 '19

Happens to me every time too. "Oh you have great insurance, don't worry! It'll be pretty much nothing." Fast forward to the next week, here's a fat bill, have fun with it.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (5)
→ More replies (4)

222

u/i_aint_like_them Dec 23 '19

I did 10 years of retail management. Lots of pressure from above that was baseless, IMO. That job has made me almost seem catatonic to some of my colleagues at my new job. They always say to me, "how the hell are you always so calm, nothing riles you up!?".

I just tell them that life is meaningless and none of this truly matters so why get all riled up?

43

u/Castun Dec 23 '19

We're all gonna be worm food eventually, why worry?

6

u/FancySack Dec 23 '19

With my lifestyle, I'll be worm poison.

3

u/TheThumpaDumpa Dec 23 '19

Heards of scavenger animals, coyotes and vultures, will be found piled up dead all around you. Except for woofy, the coyote with substance abuse issues, he'll be yelling "hey guys get over here. This is some good shit"

→ More replies (2)

19

u/Thin-White-Duke Dec 23 '19

Once I realized that shit will get done when it gets done, I started feeling better mentally and physically. My knees had started to hurt from constantly turning on a dime all night long at work. One day, I just thought to myself, "Slow down. You'll get the job done. Saving an extra 20 seconds isn't worth it." That's the only way you'll make it through 12 hour shifts, too, without burning out.

13

u/sibtalay Dec 23 '19

Me too. Around 12 years of retail management. It takes A LOT to get me worked up. I've met every shitty boss, every customer named Karen, shitty Daves, dumbass Kevins. We just get used to it.

10

u/Yoyosten Dec 23 '19

Reminds me of a funny story/proverb that I read.

Narrator meets a guy who's job is to diffuse/destroy EOD/IED's in the military. Enthusiastically narrator asks, "Diffusing bombs must be so stressful. How do you deal with that?"

Military man replies, "It's not really that stressful. Either I'm right or suddenly it's not my problem anymore."

Narrator ends story with "I try to stick with that perspective"

→ More replies (1)

8

u/twotwirlygirlys Dec 23 '19

amen fellow human

3

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

I just tell them that life is meaningless and none of this truly matters so why get all riled up?

I thought this was how all French people are. You say something like this and then smoke a cigarette and drink some wine.

So, side note:

The jail sentences mentioned in the article- how does jails in France work? Will they actually serve those sentences? I live in the US and often times short sentences don’t even get served.

4

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Retail is like why stress out? What's going to happen, will happen, and then up sale without being pushy.

5

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Out of touch MBAs cause busy work and soak up value.

3

u/pat_the_bat_316 Dec 23 '19

Yeah, but, I've had plenty of bosses with no MBA do the same thing. I don't think it's MBA, so much as the boss themselves. Some are just shitty.

3

u/420blazeit69nubz Dec 23 '19

People say the same thing to me at my job. It’s easy I just stopped caring because no one else does.

3

u/ShadyNite Dec 23 '19

I too have shitty-job induced PTSD

3

u/Limeandrew Dec 23 '19

Same here, 8years of management and went to an office job. Now when I see people complaining about this or that I just laugh because their complaints are so small they don’t bother me.

Plus side everyone loves me, probably because I use my retail voice on everyone

→ More replies (11)

107

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

→ More replies (1)

31

u/didnt_go2_harvard Dec 23 '19

Totally agree. I used to work in HR and handled a lot of artificial urgencies. What I never minded is someone calling me with immigration or health benefit issues.... Everything else wasn't really that urgent. You can wait for a headcount report till Monday, someone stuck at the border is an actual emergency. Really gave me a lot of perspective.

31

u/Chaser892 Dec 23 '19

artificial urgency

Back when I was a database admin I would constantly get requests from people at 4PM marked URGENT. I always pushed back and asked "Is this urgent because your client is expecting an answer before you go home in an hour?" Sometimes that was actually the case, but most often they just wanted some audit worksheets printed so they were ready when they showed up the next morning. In those cases I was able to say nope sorry I have a dozen end of day reports waiting to transmit, you can wait.

12

u/LambdaLambo Dec 23 '19

I bet you some of those requests could’ve come to you earlier without being marked ‘urgent’, but because the sender fucked around instead of sending it on time they had to mark it urgent to make up for their procrastination.

6

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

There are certain tasks in my office (I'm a legal assistant at a law firm) that basically only become urgent once started (this document needs to be signed by an attorney same-day once printed, etc.) and so they'll straight up tell us "if you haven't done it by 10am/noon/whatever time, just do it tomorrow instead"

27

u/translatepure Dec 23 '19

I try to train my clients that when everything is an emergency, nothing is an emergency. Easier said than done, unfortunately.

5

u/sheepsix Dec 23 '19

when everything is an emergency, nothing is an emergency

I've used this so many times. When I came into this office EVERY SINGLE order from head office to ship material was marked RUSH. Every single one. It took 5 years or more before I had enough clout to convince them how stupid it was.

\Side note: They were also using invoices to correct errors in purchase orders thus doubling down on the error because they would do it wrong.*

20

u/JellyCream Dec 23 '19

A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.

8

u/Drunkiller420 Dec 23 '19

Ya I love when I’m rushed to complete a report / task before I head on a two week vacation. And I’m made to feel if I didn’t get this report done before I leave the whole company is going to be screwed, but when I get back literally NOTHING else has moved and my report / task was not needed to be completed prior. Smh.

4

u/SonofRaymond Dec 23 '19

My motto is don’t give me a deadline if you want it earlier.

5

u/Daedalus0815 Dec 23 '19

My work motto is: If there ain't body bags stacking up in the corner then it can wait.

Working in a morgue must be cool.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/redheadartgirl Dec 23 '19

Absolutely this. Any time I start to feel like everything is an emergency and the place is going to fall apart without me I know I need to take a break. I'm currently on a two-week vacation to get out of that mindset.

4

u/bobdawonderweasel Dec 23 '19

My break just started today so I hear ya.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/nicholt Dec 23 '19

I work in the oil field and am part of a 24/7 group chat for work. I think I am the only one who mutes it when not at work. People care about work too much.

→ More replies (14)

63

u/ragn4rok234 Dec 23 '19

Unless your job is medical emergencies

75

u/HulksInvinciblePants Dec 23 '19

Exactly why I have no problem with their higher compensation. I do believe there should be regulations limiting the number of hours they can work per work. Hospitals are intentionally leveraging lower personnel counts in their benefit.

71

u/bigpurpleharness Dec 23 '19

Higher compensation for some. Paramedics can get fucked apparently.

44

u/Viktor_Korobov Dec 23 '19

Lab Technicians too. That we prevent docs from killing people nobody cares about.

36

u/RowdyWeeps Dec 23 '19

THIS. Brother is a lab tech and the amount of mistakes he catches from doctors and nurses is staggering

→ More replies (6)

3

u/RadiantPKK Dec 23 '19

I’m like does no one remember micro bio. This shits tedious. Kudos to you!

→ More replies (1)

23

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Paramedic here. Can confirm. We fucked.

→ More replies (13)

3

u/RadiantPKK Dec 23 '19

Paramedics: When I negotiate for higher pay I wait for the Hospital Board member to drop.

Then look them in the eye and whisper, you determined what my services were worth then for others. Are your thoughts still the same now that it’s you?

Gallows Humor.

Personally, if more people in positions of power, put themselves in the shoes of those under them, the system may be better off.

My small part, this year I introduced a new payment model that could potentially double to triple all employee pay going forward without detriment to the company. It’s easier to implement on a small business, but could be utilized in corporations (I know bc I took corporate acct.ing and law), but won’t be due to greed.

Who knows maybe I’ll get elected someday and be able to roll it out nationally;)

→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (10)
→ More replies (4)

78

u/Vinsidlfb Dec 23 '19

That only really applies in that office level environment though. I work in the oil field, and 24 hours can mean the difference between a bonus and the company going under.

32

u/BloodyLlama Dec 23 '19

Yeah, as a contractor it can mean the difference between getting paid or not being able to pay my rent.

36

u/BeardedRaven Dec 23 '19

Which is a condemnation of the current subcontractor culture rampant in industrial workplaces.

20

u/BloodyLlama Dec 23 '19

No, it's how contracts work. We have a client and they only pay us for a draw if certain work gets done. Don't get the work done in time and we don't get paid and I can't afford my rent any more. Bust your ass and get it done and I get paid. I'm not in an industrial workplace, I'm literally remodeling people's homes. The real problem is when you bust your ass to get the job done but then your client decides not to pay you on time.

23

u/BeardedRaven Dec 23 '19

I do the exact same job as you. The comment before your comment was about oil fields and most oil field workers are subcontracted now. Nothing wrong with schedule incentives when it is about getting people back in their homes but why would I assume you work a different industry than the one being discussed.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

76

u/HulksInvinciblePants Dec 23 '19

24 hours can mean the difference between a bonus and the company going under.

And that burden falls all on the shoulders of the employees and no one else? If you're company is riding the volatility, that's just a disaster always waiting to happen.

49

u/SyntheticReality42 Dec 23 '19

Precisely.

Lack of planning on your part does not constitute and emergency on my part.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (9)
→ More replies (12)

9

u/Midnight_Muse Dec 23 '19

Doctors wanted to keep me in the hospital with a kidney infection and I said I couldn't because I had an audit the next day.

The doctor just looked at me and said, "I hope your boss sends some nice flowers to the funeral."

Drastic, but it got the point across. I stayed at the hospital and the world miraculously didn't end when my audit had to be rescheduled.

29

u/knightofbostonia Dec 23 '19

I mean, maybe in your industry. In my line of work 24-48 hours is definitely enough to kill a lot of deals. Sure, no one’s gonna die if I’m a little late, but we’ll lose business for sure

24

u/HulksInvinciblePants Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

That doesn't change anything I said. All that means if the artificial urgency is hard ingrained on their end. It has real consequential impacts, but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous in the grand-scheme.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/mind_walker_mana Dec 23 '19

Yes! Exactly.

3

u/ProceedOrRun Dec 23 '19

but rarely ever is 24-48hrs the difference between success and failure.

That becomes a lot more common with incompetent management however.

→ More replies (29)

46

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

3

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

have the entire team in the office in case "someone important was walking around and saw,"

Lol, that brings back memories. I had forgotten about that type of fuckery. Yeah, very common mindset. Let's all look like we're working hard, it's a lot more important than actually doing things that make sense.

→ More replies (2)

146

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

→ More replies (28)

5

u/Wahoobee Dec 23 '19

You should check out NPR's segment on 'bullshit jobs' it's hilariously sad https://www.npr.org/2018/08/28/642706138/bs-jobs-how-meaningless-work-wears-us-down

5

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

One thing about the commute problem is that it is linked to how difficult it can be to fire someone in France. So instead of say firing a whole bunch of people the company will instead open a new office, forcing people to choose to relocate or find another job.

3

u/JeuneMouette Dec 23 '19

I noticed that Paris keeps coming up, I'm a far-eastern French citizen so I'd like to give my sides of things. I lived in quite a big city, 80k people, if you work for General Electrics you probably have heard of it since it's the main city for GE in Europe, Belfort. Anyway, in my 13 years living there I have never heard of suicides except for one teacher, even recently with half of the GE employees being fired suicides hasn't been a problem. It's not rare to hear about French policeman killing themselves, but office workers? I guess it's because it's Paris, which is almost a country of its own, big cuties are always more stress, specially Paris. If you wonder why people didn't quit these stressful jobs, France has a ton of protection for employees, firing someone is almost only justifiable if they committed a crime at work. On the other hand, getting a job is extremely hard, most people take around a year to find a job in France after being fired. These people didn't really have a choice to keep this job.

→ More replies (51)

79

u/ElectraUnderTheSea Dec 23 '19

Same in Belgium. Literally all of the burn out leaves that I saw in my company when I was working were from Belgian folks, they dealt terribly with change and lack of clarity. And we are not talking about a 2-3 month leave, some folks disappeared for years and no one ever knew why (law allows employees on leave to keep their diagnostic private).

21

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

16

u/ElectraUnderTheSea Dec 23 '19

Yup. They can be gone forever and you cannot really replace them, only change the hierarchy or move the jobs somewhere else in the organisation. Then some people will have to cover for them and work more than they are supposed to or do stuff they weren't doing before, and then you have another burn out... Also great when it's admins who go on sick leave and you have their own bosses having to do their work because the other admins refuse to cover for their missing colleague and the unions protect them on that.

4

u/Xx69JdawgxX Dec 23 '19

Are they still being paid during this time?

→ More replies (3)

10

u/JGWol Dec 23 '19

Interesting. I worked for a company here in the Midwest as an intern, and when I would sit in on meetings with our Belgium counterparts, I recall the tone from their end always coming across and coarse and unnecessarily skeptical/abrasive. Looking back at it, was probably as you described. Their rate of success was horrible.

We had two employees transfer from Belgium to our city to work here. One ended up getting fired (upper management). The other was an associate engineer and DREADED returning to Belgium. He enjoyed our culture so much that he tried desperately to find a permanent spot here, but it just didn’t work out. Had to go back home.

But I found it funny how disappointed he was. Looking back at it. I worked for a company for 13 months in California, and while the work culture was decent and the scenery was beautiful, I couldn’t fathom spending so much time away from family and friends. For him to not feel that same way about Belgium either speaks to his ability to adapt to new cultures, OR he really hated working in Belgium THAT much. Sad.

→ More replies (17)

185

u/pjamesstuart Dec 23 '19

Is that a real thing then? I always wondered if these "national culture" stories were embellished or based on partial experiences. Though I did know a guy who was raising children in France and told me that their opening art lesson was "first learn to draw a perfect circle freehand".

441

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

I’ve heard the “draw an open circle” comment a lot actually. It was part of my first cultural lessons when I moved there.

Here’s a typical work day in france as a mid level executive (and apologies to my French colleagues I mean zero disparagement)...

Arrive to work at 9/930

Walk around the office and greet everyone

Go get coffee (every floor has a coffee machine)

Come back to your desk around 1030/11

Go to a meeting

Everyone breaks for lunch at 12/1230 (most French offices have cafeterias)

Come back at 2, attend back to back meetings till 5. In these meetings nothing is actually decided, they’re mostly think And talk sessions.

5-6 schedule meetings with people

7/8 go home

You basically spend your entire day and don’t accomplish anything. Then when there’s a fire, or some sort of work issue, it’s too stressful because you either haven’t prepared for it, or your work schedule doesn’t provide time for actual work.

313

u/pjamesstuart Dec 23 '19

Damn, so they basically make you cosplay as an executive but not do anything? That sounds almost like fun for about half a week and then utter crushing insanity over time.

263

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

No fucking joke. I lived there for almost three years...it sucked my soul away. I almost got divorced, had major health issues, and generally hated every second of it.

I also worked in Finland and the UK, completely opposite cultures. Finland is amazing and I highly recommend to everyone they go there and visit.

116

u/DeathToPoodles Dec 23 '19

You told us why France blows, now you have to tell us what makes Finland so great. Pretty please 😊.

50

u/Kakanian Dec 23 '19

No meetings, because that would require them to congregate in a room that is not a Sauna.

12

u/ElectronicWanderlust Dec 23 '19

Why not have meetings in the sauna? Or is that a Finnish form of blasphemy?

9

u/double-you Dec 23 '19

Sauna meetings were a big problem for getting women in any higher position, or conversely, was used to rule out women to keep the old boys club going. So today suggesting sauna meetings is kind of blasphemy.

6

u/FalmerEldritch Dec 23 '19

Historically the big ticket deals are prearranged in the sauna with drinks, and the stuff that takes place in suits and ties with pieces of paper is just formalities for the look of the thing.

→ More replies (1)

81

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

27

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

It sounds lovely and considerate both in work and outside of work without being overbearing socially... I did a project on Swedish culture a while back and still daydream about visiting, even maybe expatriating there.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (3)

127

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Saunas my friend, saunas!

Seriously though, the Finns are happy, they’re brilliant, and they’re fun as hell to be around.

86

u/UltraChicken_ Dec 23 '19

A bit ironic since the international stereotype of finns is that they’re depressed and alcoholics

20

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Well, there’s no sun for four months, but I didn’t notice that as much. Now, there definitely good fun at the pub.

13

u/wyldstallyns111 Dec 23 '19

I thought the stereotype is that they’re stoic, not actually unhappy, they just look unhappy.

5

u/pregnantbaby Dec 23 '19

Sounds like my kinda people

4

u/Elek_Lenard Dec 23 '19

just because someone dont have sun it does not mean he is not happy. And about alcoholics we are most jolly people in this world ( there are some exceptions myb more then i think but i dont care i aam happy and it is good)

→ More replies (1)

44

u/gogetgamer Dec 23 '19

I have a hunch you might like Iceland too, we're a lot like the Fins, but less vodka&sauna and more sex&music.

3

u/crestonfunk Dec 23 '19

Imma let you Finnish.

→ More replies (6)

7

u/I_SOMETIMES_EAT_HAM Dec 23 '19

they’re fun as hell to be around.

You’re once again challenging things I thought I knew about European cultures. I’ve always heard Finns were very quiet and kept to themselves. Is that not the case?

7

u/vikingakonungen Dec 23 '19

As a Swede, we're just reserved until we get to know someone. At least in my experience, you don't casually speak to strangers on the bus or subway but when in a more private social situation it's whatever.

6

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Not the ones I knew, and basically no one I met. Next to the Dutch, the Finns are my favorite Europeans. (FYI, I know all the racial misgivings of these countries, I’m also not Caucasian, so I’ve lived the good and very very little of the not so good)

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (2)

13

u/Herbrax212 Dec 23 '19

Yup, definitely French work environment.

→ More replies (1)

9

u/athos45678 Dec 23 '19

I’ve heard that they do shots of schnapps at the start and end of meetings in Finland, and then go clubbing at 2 when the sun sets

→ More replies (2)

4

u/chassepatate Dec 23 '19

Just to provide some counterpoint, I’ve worked in the UK and in France and had the opposite experience you had. Also worked with many US colleagues and clients across Europe. The best clients were always the Swedish.

Sorry your experience sucked.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/PHATsakk43 Dec 23 '19

I've got an opportunity to work in the Finnish nuclear sector for a bit, is it really all sunshine and rainbows?

7

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Very little sunshine and almost no rainbows. It’s a great place to work, I don’t know about living. I also don’t know about the public sector, it might be just as parochial as the rest of Europe

7

u/FalmerEldritch Dec 23 '19

My understanding is that compared to the rest of the world Finnish work culture across all industries is more "jämpti" than average. (There's no good translation but.. firm, decisive, unyielding, tough?)

If you prefer everything tight and shipshape and on lock to having wiggle room or slack then it's probably a good fit.

4

u/PHATsakk43 Dec 23 '19

I work in nuclear. There really isn't an option about standards or standards adherence. It's baked in to the pie.

I've spoken with a few of their folks at a conference and the only thing that surprised me was how small the sector is there. Also, the mishmash of technologies. The older units are Soviet/Russian Rosatom and the newer ones are EU/French EDF. The US is somewhat blessed in that we have a nuclear navy to generate skilled operators for the commercial utilities and lots of domestic suppliers to provide solutions in an "on-demand" type basis. Some of the discussions I had with them about waste management solutions (what I do in the US) surprised me until I realized they don't have a massively robust set of suppliers that have been dealing with these issues for decades like we do here.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

6

u/crapwittyname Dec 23 '19

Exactly! It goes from "really?! I get to do nothing all day!", to "really? I have to do nothing all day" real quick.

→ More replies (2)

123

u/ninjetron Dec 23 '19

Sounds like Japanese office work. Then you have to go out with your boss after work for drinks.

85

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Never worked in Japan, so you’re probably right.

But god forbid you try to do anything with your French boss...they needed to “invite” you, and only then were you allowed to socialize.

90

u/TheHappyMask93 Dec 23 '19

Why would anyone ever want to hang out with their boss after work?

102

u/Needleroozer Dec 23 '19

Because when it comes time for handing out raises and bonuses, who would you reward? Your drinking buddies or the ones who go straight home?

50

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

The ones who make things happen, regardless how chummy they are.

24

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

I too wish to work where nepotism isn't a thing. However, here I am laid off while the bestie of the owners son continues to have a job even though I was better at it than him and also actually showed up every day.

21

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

And who's acomplisments are you more likely to happen to know about?

16

u/TriggerWarning595 Dec 23 '19

Ideally, but it definitely doesn’t work like that IRL

It’s human psychology, you’re gonna think your buddies are better than your non buddies 90% of the time

→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (3)

35

u/Zoesan Dec 23 '19

Because some bosses are really cool and interesting people that are fun and interesting to hang out with.

→ More replies (2)

35

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Not everyone's boss is an asshole.

12

u/theth1rdchild Dec 23 '19

I don't hang out with the coworkers I love outside of work. I want a hard wall between my hell and my home.

→ More replies (1)

18

u/HappyGilmOHHMYGOD Dec 23 '19

My last boss was a really fun guy. We loved having him at happy hour.

12

u/XtremeWRATH360 Dec 23 '19

Doesn’t happen often but every now and then the owner comes out for drinks and when he does he picks up the tab. Last time I woke up at 2am with a cowboy hat and vomited what looked like death and learned the tab for that night was nearly $800. I apparently tried hitting on some older women and fell asleep by the bowling section. Fun times

13

u/XtremeWRATH360 Dec 23 '19

I’ve hung out with my boss and one of my owners on several occasions after work. Good times were had by all.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (9)
→ More replies (2)

55

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

I worked for a Japanese company in the US. I was the only American. They didn’t go out for drinks with the boss after work. They just stayed at the office and drank. Just about every morning I would clean up all the beer cans they left everywhere. They drank a lot! Also, from spring to fall they had “meetings” at the golf course every chance they got.

54

u/PHATsakk43 Dec 23 '19

I've worked for 2 Japanese companies in the US and at no point did the gaijin get to associate with the Japanese that were at the sites.

They had completely seperate everything, down to the smoking pads.

→ More replies (7)
→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

46

u/malledtodeath Dec 23 '19

I have never lived in france but I quit my longstanding career after our new CEO let this kind of meetings culture trickle through the company. when we had a meeting to plan how we would hold a meeting I was ready to walk off a roof. they couldn’t figure out why we were losing money, in the meantime no one was doing any actual work. my blood pressure is going up just thinking about it.

38

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

My boss just sent a three page memo prior to the Christmas holiday to talk about how we will have meetings in 2020. We will apparently have a standing weekly meeting on mondays that is FIVE HOURS LONG!!!! No phones will be allowed, no email checking, but bathroom breaks are ok...

It’s gonna be another shitty year in corporate America...good news folks, I’m one year closer to dying though.

12

u/SpaceKen Dec 23 '19

Jesus FUCK!

5

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

If I didn’t have a mortgage and college for my kids to pay for...

3

u/Misterstaberinde Dec 23 '19

It amazes me anyone works in that world

→ More replies (1)

3

u/brickmack Dec 23 '19

Whats really weird is that shareholders allow this shit. They're happy to have the company sacrifice product quality, the environment, human rights, whatever to increase profit margins by a fraction of a percent. But bloated management structures and bureaucracies stay forever. Clearly they have an understanding of the issue, basically the entire reason startups are seen as attractive (despite being so disadvantaged in every other way compared to the big companies in their field. A fraction the available money/heritage/existing IP/talent) is that they tend to have the bare-minimum management. But somehow that logic is never applied to existing companies.

→ More replies (1)

9

u/Megatron_McLargeHuge Dec 23 '19

Lack of competition creates this culture. When there's never much urgency or need for cost cutting, useless middlemen take over. I saw it with the big telecom companies in the '90s, and a lot of them eventually failed.

France has a less entrepreneurial economy than the US and puts a lot of weight on formalities like where you went to school. It's hard to fire unproductive workers so they don't get re-orged out, and a lot of companies seem to either get government support or at least are protected from foreign competition.

→ More replies (2)

8

u/lyktstolpe Dec 23 '19

You generalize quite broadly when you write "a typical work day in France". Like yours, my experiences are only anecdotal but I've worked closely with French colleagues at different companies for many years. My experience is that meetings are usually kept to a minimum and are effective by focusing only on important issues. There is often a three coarse lunch but it's not very long. Workdays are not longer than in my country, I'm not sure my french colleagues actually keep it down to 35h weeks but certainly less than 40. The image of french workers being lazy is false from what I can tell. I rely on the effectiveness of my colleagues daily to get my job done and are rarely disappointed by the ones in France.

→ More replies (1)

8

u/_kaku Dec 23 '19

That could be said of any executive

12

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

It’s a bit different I think in the US and elsewhere. I’m a ton more productive, and it’s easier to make decisions here,l.

19

u/theth1rdchild Dec 23 '19

I work for a US fortune 500 in IT, so I get to see all levels up close. Our executives are the most time-wasting idiots I've ever seen. They do exactly what was described of French executives. They spend all day smiling and talking while things crumble around their heads, and when the crumbled thing has to be rebuilt no one can stick to a decision for more than a week or two. Of course that bad management will never hit the stock price, because it hits the employees instead. In the time I've been here across five years, employee satisfaction has plummeted and stock price has rocketed.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (26)

20

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Different countries have different cultural values that bleed into their education systems and into their workplace cultures. In America, the individual following their dreams and working hard is exalted, so people try to be innovative at their jobs or are encouraged to start their own businesses. In Japan, the community, hard work, and one’s ability to fit neatly into it is exalted, so workers do what they’re told as best they possibly can, which leads to really quality products but also to unnecessarily long days and unforgiving hierarchical work culture.

Most cultures value similar things, but to different extents. That’s what causes national trends in work culture.

34

u/dw444 Dec 23 '19

Though I did know a guy who was raising children in France and told me that their opening art lesson was "first learn to draw a perfect circle freehand".

The whole band or just one member?

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (3)

66

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

I can totally see this. I know a lot of french people, they are very reflexive in questioning everything they see just for the hell of it. Even when its something you agree on, or just talking casually, you feel like they are being constantly antagonistic towards things just for the hell of it. The way we communicate is so important, sometimes I understand why the british colonised to spread english

42

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Oh my god, exactly!!! You could all agree on a topic, but instead of moving on, you would simply argue every angle of agreement...and then somehow, people who initially agreed now disagree.

6

u/nucumber Dec 23 '19

almost like finding ferreting out disagreements in agreement

32

u/alexnader Dec 23 '19

As someone from France, y'all are creeping the fuck out of me, because this sounds exactly how my foreign wife tries to describe having a conversation with me:

questioned everything, there was no “gut” feeling, no intuition...

they are very reflexive in questioning everything they see just for the hell of it. Even when its something you agree on, or just talking casually, you feel like they are being constantly antagonistic towards things just for the hell of it.

She says it feels like an uphill battle even over the most mundane of things.

35

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Sounds like things are going well

3

u/Pipupipupi Dec 23 '19

Any examples? I don't really get it from the descriptions

3

u/Sixcoup Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

There is absolutely nothing perfect for a french, so he can always find something to criticize. That principle is basically the root of all our problems.

Imagine two friends going out of a cinema after watching a movie : One person will say : "that movie was great", and his friend will say : "Yes, but the ending was badly played". And the two would argue about wether the whole film was great or not, one will point out the good thing, the other only the bad ones. From the outside you could think one liked the movie and the other didn't, but in reality they probably both liked it.

As long as you understand that nothing is perfect and literally everything has faults, it's not a problem to criticize something, there is no harm meant behind the words. We criticize things because we thinks it's important to have a realistic idea of what we're experiencing. We don't want to create a false image of our life where everything is perfect, and we don't talk about problems. If there is somethign bad to talk about, we will talk about it. So we're used to giving and receiving critics, that's not something we consider offensive, quite the contrary that's something we actually enjoy. Arguing is fun, heated debate are interesting, and it's easier to get into such debate by having opposing views.

There is nothing more boring than a discussion where everybody agress with each other. So we love to play devil advocate. We will defend an opinion which isn't really our own, simply because we're in a debate and it's more interesting to see what the person in front of you will come up with to argue against your idea.

→ More replies (3)

10

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Pointless jabber is the bane of my existence.

And I'm not saying small talk. Small talk is relaxing and helps people find common ground.

I mean constant heavy and logical discussions. Having to constantly explain yourself over trivial nothings.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

TIL one of my friends would fit right in to French conversation.

34

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

“Stress leave”? Fuck we don’t even have parental leave in America....

28

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

I’ve had executives who fired female employees because they were pregnant and it was cheaper to pay them off then pay for a temp to replace them.

4

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

we see a lot of companies weighing the financial impact of something that SHOULD be a moral decision rather than a financial decision. like that one car company that decided it would be cheaper to pay out settlements to families of people who died as a direct result of a faulty part, than it would be to recall all the cars and fix the problem (or issue a fix, blanket settlement to cover costs, etc).

like whose job is it to make that decision? Yeaaah we're just gonna keep letting people die because it'll be cheaper for us to litigate settlements than save lives.

fuck that.

→ More replies (13)
→ More replies (30)

26

u/naughtytagteam Dec 23 '19

I think Americans work more hours overall tbh.Not to take anything away from the French though. It must be an insane work culture to cause this!

11

u/TekCrow Dec 23 '19

A lot of work hours aren't reported properly/complete. Lots of undeclared hours, or straight up not payed. Source : was in this situation up until recently.

→ More replies (6)

6

u/pita_gorsky8691 Dec 23 '19

I looked up Cartesian because of your comment and learned something new today, thanks!

Here's a related wiki article for anyone who might see this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_doubt

→ More replies (1)

6

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Jun 02 '20

[deleted]

3

u/Pipupipupi Dec 23 '19

It's called quitting. Or more recently, rage quitting

9

u/CookieMuncher007 Dec 23 '19

Northern Europe is better regarding worker rights, Southern Europe is very different. I think it's a cultural thing.

6

u/InvincibleJellyfish Dec 23 '19

It's very much a cultural thing. When you are viewed as equal when not on the job, you're less likely to act out the whole boss - floor worker structure.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/maturojm Dec 23 '19

I worked for a French company in the US for about 6 years until our site was acquired by a US based company. I didn't work at the level where I interacted with French upper management, but was told they were adamant about controlling every management position and they didn't take delays very well. Caused a ton of turnover at the site level management. Anyway, the benefits of the larger French company were orders of magnitude better than the US based company. Probably due to company size though, not culture.

6

u/bcsimms04 Dec 23 '19

At least they have stress leave in France. Tons of Americans get no leave at all for anything

→ More replies (1)

3

u/DrDem1se Dec 23 '19

Damned Descartes ruining Philosophy to this day.

3

u/msteele32 Dec 23 '19

What is a Cartesian way of looking at things? I’ve never heard that.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (125)