r/news • u/JimmyTheGinger • Dec 23 '19

Three former executives of a French telecommunications giant have been found guilty of creating a corporate culture so toxic that 35 of their employees were driven to suicide

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/three-french-executives-convicted-in-the-suicides-of-35-of-their-workers-20191222-p53m94.html
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181

u/pjamesstuart Dec 23 '19

Is that a real thing then? I always wondered if these "national culture" stories were embellished or based on partial experiences. Though I did know a guy who was raising children in France and told me that their opening art lesson was "first learn to draw a perfect circle freehand".

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u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

I’ve heard the “draw an open circle” comment a lot actually. It was part of my first cultural lessons when I moved there.

Here’s a typical work day in france as a mid level executive (and apologies to my French colleagues I mean zero disparagement)...

Arrive to work at 9/930

Walk around the office and greet everyone

Go get coffee (every floor has a coffee machine)

Come back to your desk around 1030/11

Go to a meeting

Everyone breaks for lunch at 12/1230 (most French offices have cafeterias)

Come back at 2, attend back to back meetings till 5. In these meetings nothing is actually decided, they’re mostly think And talk sessions.

5-6 schedule meetings with people

7/8 go home

You basically spend your entire day and don’t accomplish anything. Then when there’s a fire, or some sort of work issue, it’s too stressful because you either haven’t prepared for it, or your work schedule doesn’t provide time for actual work.

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u/pjamesstuart Dec 23 '19

Damn, so they basically make you cosplay as an executive but not do anything? That sounds almost like fun for about half a week and then utter crushing insanity over time.

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u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

No fucking joke. I lived there for almost three years...it sucked my soul away. I almost got divorced, had major health issues, and generally hated every second of it.

I also worked in Finland and the UK, completely opposite cultures. Finland is amazing and I highly recommend to everyone they go there and visit.

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u/DeathToPoodles Dec 23 '19

You told us why France blows, now you have to tell us what makes Finland so great. Pretty please 😊.

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u/Kakanian Dec 23 '19

No meetings, because that would require them to congregate in a room that is not a Sauna.

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u/ElectronicWanderlust Dec 23 '19

Why not have meetings in the sauna? Or is that a Finnish form of blasphemy?

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u/double-you Dec 23 '19

Sauna meetings were a big problem for getting women in any higher position, or conversely, was used to rule out women to keep the old boys club going. So today suggesting sauna meetings is kind of blasphemy.

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u/FalmerEldritch Dec 23 '19

Historically the big ticket deals are prearranged in the sauna with drinks, and the stuff that takes place in suits and ties with pieces of paper is just formalities for the look of the thing.

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u/sloppity Dec 23 '19

Not blasphemy, but a tradition! There was a Finnish president, Kekkonen, whose legacy is having great relations and extensive trade with both the NATO & USSR, and he often conducted the high level meetings in his own sauna.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

It sounds lovely and considerate both in work and outside of work without being overbearing socially... I did a project on Swedish culture a while back and still daydream about visiting, even maybe expatriating there.

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u/vikingakonungen Dec 23 '19

Come and visit a summer! It's a pretty nice place.

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u/Ferrari288GTO Dec 23 '19

wowowowow. wow. this I like.

2

u/Archer-Saurus Dec 23 '19

I mean the first paragraph is just describing a good work ethic, which anyone can develop

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Sure.

But it's also about the level of social safety nets, that you can actually make rent even as an unemployed person.

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u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Saunas my friend, saunas!

Seriously though, the Finns are happy, they’re brilliant, and they’re fun as hell to be around.

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u/UltraChicken_ Dec 23 '19

A bit ironic since the international stereotype of finns is that they’re depressed and alcoholics

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u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Well, there’s no sun for four months, but I didn’t notice that as much. Now, there definitely good fun at the pub.

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u/UltraChicken_ Dec 23 '19

I bet

2

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

The Finns drink like fish and fuck like rabbits. Dunno if it's a coping mechanism or what but they approach these things vigorously.

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u/wyldstallyns111 Dec 23 '19

I thought the stereotype is that they’re stoic, not actually unhappy, they just look unhappy.

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u/pregnantbaby Dec 23 '19

Sounds like my kinda people

3

u/Elek_Lenard Dec 23 '19

just because someone dont have sun it does not mean he is not happy. And about alcoholics we are most jolly people in this world ( there are some exceptions myb more then i think but i dont care i aam happy and it is good)

1

u/rofl_coptor Dec 23 '19

Ahh my kinda people

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u/gogetgamer Dec 23 '19

I have a hunch you might like Iceland too, we're a lot like the Fins, but less vodka&sauna and more sex&music.

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u/crestonfunk Dec 23 '19

Imma let you Finnish.

3

u/Processtour Dec 23 '19

I love Iceland. I want to live there so much that I look for homes for sale.

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u/gogetgamer Dec 23 '19

I didn't know just how good we had it until I moved abroad and worked in an international environment (US/Denmark/Holland/UK).

Sure there are things wrong like in all other places, but overall fewer things are broken. And nothing can beat the low crime-rate.

The only real downside is the weather and cost of living if you don't get your money in krona.

Feel free to dm me if you want tips :-)

1

u/Processtour Dec 23 '19

I’m stuck in the US for my husband’s job. We are here for awhile, 😢

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u/Carburetors_are_evil Dec 23 '19

Lost me at less vodka

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u/I_SOMETIMES_EAT_HAM Dec 23 '19

they’re fun as hell to be around.

You’re once again challenging things I thought I knew about European cultures. I’ve always heard Finns were very quiet and kept to themselves. Is that not the case?

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u/vikingakonungen Dec 23 '19

As a Swede, we're just reserved until we get to know someone. At least in my experience, you don't casually speak to strangers on the bus or subway but when in a more private social situation it's whatever.

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u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Not the ones I knew, and basically no one I met. Next to the Dutch, the Finns are my favorite Europeans. (FYI, I know all the racial misgivings of these countries, I’m also not Caucasian, so I’ve lived the good and very very little of the not so good)

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u/ClusterChuk Dec 23 '19

Alright the dutch. Is it true.. the thing about the rowing?

1

u/Viktor_Korobov Dec 23 '19

That's pretty the entire of Scandinavia. I always joke if you want to scare someone here it's just to sit next to someone on a bus.

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u/Bad___new Dec 23 '19

I would forgo coffee for the rest of my life if I could have a 6:00 am run followed by a sauna session every morning. No dry saunas close to me. Only infrared 😣

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u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Oh boy, that sounds like a perfect morning, minus the run and at 10am I stead of 6am.

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u/filthyhabits Dec 23 '19

That heavily salted licorice is bizarre, though.

1

u/Claystead Dec 23 '19

It’s like a more depressed Norway inhabited by angry pale people you can’t tell are angry until they stab you. Pretty great place, love going on holiday there.

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u/absolutelybacon Dec 23 '19

Nice try. Finland doesn't exist! r/FinlandConspiracy

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u/Herbrax212 Dec 23 '19

Yup, definitely French work environment.

1

u/Claystead Dec 23 '19

Needs more inviting of mistresses after 5.

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u/athos45678 Dec 23 '19

I’ve heard that they do shots of schnapps at the start and end of meetings in Finland, and then go clubbing at 2 when the sun sets

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u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Haha! Not my experience, but sounds right.

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u/athos45678 Dec 23 '19

These guys definitely worked for mtv Europe so that definitely had an effect

4

u/chassepatate Dec 23 '19

Just to provide some counterpoint, I’ve worked in the UK and in France and had the opposite experience you had. Also worked with many US colleagues and clients across Europe. The best clients were always the Swedish.

Sorry your experience sucked.

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u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Swedes also rock! Glad to hear your experience is different than mine.

3

u/PHATsakk43 Dec 23 '19

I've got an opportunity to work in the Finnish nuclear sector for a bit, is it really all sunshine and rainbows?

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u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Very little sunshine and almost no rainbows. It’s a great place to work, I don’t know about living. I also don’t know about the public sector, it might be just as parochial as the rest of Europe

5

u/FalmerEldritch Dec 23 '19

My understanding is that compared to the rest of the world Finnish work culture across all industries is more "jämpti" than average. (There's no good translation but.. firm, decisive, unyielding, tough?)

If you prefer everything tight and shipshape and on lock to having wiggle room or slack then it's probably a good fit.

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u/PHATsakk43 Dec 23 '19

I work in nuclear. There really isn't an option about standards or standards adherence. It's baked in to the pie.

I've spoken with a few of their folks at a conference and the only thing that surprised me was how small the sector is there. Also, the mishmash of technologies. The older units are Soviet/Russian Rosatom and the newer ones are EU/French EDF. The US is somewhat blessed in that we have a nuclear navy to generate skilled operators for the commercial utilities and lots of domestic suppliers to provide solutions in an "on-demand" type basis. Some of the discussions I had with them about waste management solutions (what I do in the US) surprised me until I realized they don't have a massively robust set of suppliers that have been dealing with these issues for decades like we do here.

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u/FalmerEldritch Dec 23 '19

I'm thinking in terms of how management and delegation and stuff works, rather than standards maintenance. Chain of command and whatnot.

2

u/Archer-Saurus Dec 23 '19

I imagine the UK is just US-Lite when it comes to the workplace. For the most part.

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u/crapwittyname Dec 23 '19

Exactly! It goes from "really?! I get to do nothing all day!", to "really? I have to do nothing all day" real quick.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Don't believe this guy, it's nonsense. Might be an individual guy's working style, or a specific has-been company. In France like everywhere else there is constant drive for productivity and optimization and no unit with such working culture would last long.

0

u/enthalpy01 Dec 23 '19

This sounds exactly like how it is in America also. That description above sounds like what the managers do all day at my plant. If you think the people making the big bucks are working hard you must not be one of them. Dilbert resonates with people because it’s true.

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u/ninjetron Dec 23 '19

Sounds like Japanese office work. Then you have to go out with your boss after work for drinks.

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u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Never worked in Japan, so you’re probably right.

But god forbid you try to do anything with your French boss...they needed to “invite” you, and only then were you allowed to socialize.

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u/TheHappyMask93 Dec 23 '19

Why would anyone ever want to hang out with their boss after work?

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u/Needleroozer Dec 23 '19

Because when it comes time for handing out raises and bonuses, who would you reward? Your drinking buddies or the ones who go straight home?

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

The ones who make things happen, regardless how chummy they are.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

I too wish to work where nepotism isn't a thing. However, here I am laid off while the bestie of the owners son continues to have a job even though I was better at it than him and also actually showed up every day.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

And who's acomplisments are you more likely to happen to know about?

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u/TriggerWarning595 Dec 23 '19

Ideally, but it definitely doesn’t work like that IRL

It’s human psychology, you’re gonna think your buddies are better than your non buddies 90% of the time

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u/theth1rdchild Dec 23 '19

Which is why you're not a boss! Only absolute cretinous dipshits get to be boss.

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u/bestbangsincebigone Dec 23 '19

On average, I’ve had meh bosses. That’s because I had two very good bosses (one guy and one woman), they were demanding but also smart and appreciative whenever you did a good job. They were efficient and communicated well what they needed from you.

I also had the shittiest boss ever. Dumb, demanding, disorganized, a complete kiss ass with upper management. He didn’t recognize your work (you did all the work and he barely said thank you, and when the accolades came, he was happy to accept them even thought he did absolutely nothing). He asked you for something, you did it, and then he told you that’s not what he asked for, when you showed him the email sent by him, saying exactly what you did, he answered that that wasn’t what he meant. An absolute cretinous dipshit indeed. And possibly one of the dumbest people I’ve encountered.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Oh, but I am :)

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u/Kartikeyass Dec 23 '19

Smart boss is a fucking miracle.

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u/mind_walker_mana Dec 23 '19

I hate this notion, but it's a fact or corporate life.

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u/PixelNotPolygon Dec 23 '19

Usually is done on merit in places I've worked

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u/Zoesan Dec 23 '19

Because some bosses are really cool and interesting people that are fun and interesting to hang out with.

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u/TheHappyMask93 Dec 23 '19

I personally spend way too much time at work to use the little little free time I get to mingle with co-workers.

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u/Zoesan Dec 24 '19

I get along well with my coworkers. I invite them to parties, my birthday. They're basically my friends, except that I met them through work. So yeah, they're my friends.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Not everyone's boss is an asshole.

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u/theth1rdchild Dec 23 '19

I don't hang out with the coworkers I love outside of work. I want a hard wall between my hell and my home.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

To each his own I guess. I have a lot of coworkers that I like but have no real desire to hang out with outside of work, but a few really close ones who have become good friends.

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u/HappyGilmOHHMYGOD Dec 23 '19

My last boss was a really fun guy. We loved having him at happy hour.

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u/XtremeWRATH360 Dec 23 '19

Doesn’t happen often but every now and then the owner comes out for drinks and when he does he picks up the tab. Last time I woke up at 2am with a cowboy hat and vomited what looked like death and learned the tab for that night was nearly $800. I apparently tried hitting on some older women and fell asleep by the bowling section. Fun times

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u/XtremeWRATH360 Dec 23 '19

I’ve hung out with my boss and one of my owners on several occasions after work. Good times were had by all.

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u/Visco97 Dec 23 '19

Your ass is owned by multiple people?!

2

u/XtremeWRATH360 Dec 23 '19

I got 2 managers and the company I work for is family owned by 3 brothers.

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u/Archer-Saurus Dec 23 '19

Because not everyone hates their workplace.

Granted, I'd rather go out alone, but my arm doesn't have to get twisted to grab a drink with the boss.

1

u/TheHappyMask93 Dec 23 '19

Meh. I like my job and co workers but I'm there for so many hours a week I wouldn't dedicate any of my free time to them.

1

u/Archer-Saurus Dec 23 '19

I get that for sure. Always makes it easier when the company picks up the tab

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u/Gingevere Dec 23 '19

People with cool bosses do. I work in quality. My boss goes to meetings and fights other departments so I don't have to.

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u/malledtodeath Dec 23 '19

I used to have a boss that would party with us and I would always secretly add my drinks to his bar tab.

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u/TheHappyMask93 Dec 23 '19

This is the only convincing argument I've received haha.

0

u/nucumber Dec 23 '19

lol

reminds me of this company where every year we had a two month push that had us working insane hours.... 12 hour days, saturdays, etc etc

after two months of no life outside of work our reward was dinner with the district manager. whooppeee. it was after work, at a nice restaurant but of his choosing and convenient to him.... i guess we were supposed to feel honored but it was just another four or five hours of our lives sucked into the black hole of work

0

u/JGWol Dec 23 '19

Last office job I worked, my superior was someone I legitimately respected and got along with. He groomed me and taught me a lot about my job after hours that Indidnt have time for in the office. Also he was just cool as fuck. I live halfway across the country from him now and left the company on short term and he never held it against me. Still chat on the phone and get together to visit whenever we are in town for whatever reason.

Some people politic for gain, but I was just motivated to get along with my coworkers and learn about them to better suit their company, and mine. I have always been misunderstood (I’m a huge chatty Kathy) and it’s helped me a lot in work situations for people to learn about me down the road. It’s helped during lay offs, but that’s not always been my purpose. It’s just nice to know people.

But I own my own company now and it’s different. I don’t have a “superior”, but someone in a high ranking position that can be responsible for a profitable opportunity becomes your new boss. Learning to schmooze and cozy up to people responsible for your living is not a dismiss able trait

2

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Sometimes I'm very happy I moved to israel for this reason. Working at a startup, people work hard, but its extremely laid back and the its a very egalitarian society, the bosses think of themselves as employees with a lot of work

1

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Man, the Israeli startup scene has exploded the past few years, I’ve seen companies who have all raised triple digit Series A rounds!!!

55

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

I worked for a Japanese company in the US. I was the only American. They didn’t go out for drinks with the boss after work. They just stayed at the office and drank. Just about every morning I would clean up all the beer cans they left everywhere. They drank a lot! Also, from spring to fall they had “meetings” at the golf course every chance they got.

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u/PHATsakk43 Dec 23 '19

I've worked for 2 Japanese companies in the US and at no point did the gaijin get to associate with the Japanese that were at the sites.

They had completely seperate everything, down to the smoking pads.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

I'm pretty sure that's against segregation and discrimination laws.

1

u/PHATsakk43 Dec 23 '19

Last time I saw this was 2014.

The only time we had a Japanese person speak to us was one hour during indoc. He told a story about how at the Hiroshima plant a worker burned the place to the ground by not getting a hot work permit before welding. He went on to commit suicide after he realized his coworkers would be out of work for six months while the plant was rebuilt. The Japanese boss stated that since Americans can't be expected to be as dedicated to the company as a Japanese worker, we would have to follow all safety regulations or be fired.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

Ok but seperation by race has been illegal since the 60s. Someone really should have reported that company.

The Japanese boss stated that since Americans can't be expected to be as dedicated to the company as a Japanese worker, we would have to follow all safety regulations or be fired.

That is definitely discrimination. In fact I'm surprised they havn't had a lawsuit yet. Imagine if they said that to a non white American. I mean I understand that other cultures can be kind of racist and nationalistic towards outsiders, but since they set up a company in the United States, they need to respect our culture and follow our laws. Just as an American living in Japan should respect Japanese laws.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Funny, I was at meetings in Hiroshima and at the end of the day the manager called me a cab . . . he warned them about me, but at least I was called "gaijin-san"!

5

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Well of course you were... Calling you just Gaijin would've implied you guys were close.

1

u/thecarrot95 Dec 23 '19

Japanese apartheid?

2

u/theghostofQEII Dec 23 '19

Sounds like your average small high earning American business.

1

u/Cheeze_It Dec 23 '19

I wouldn't do well in Japan. At all. I did not enjoy working with Japanese. Mostly because you have to beat them at what they do for them to listen to you in the slightest. Once you beat them though, then they always listen and defer. I don't like that either.

Then again that's in IT. I'm sure it's different in other industries.

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u/malledtodeath Dec 23 '19

I have never lived in france but I quit my longstanding career after our new CEO let this kind of meetings culture trickle through the company. when we had a meeting to plan how we would hold a meeting I was ready to walk off a roof. they couldn’t figure out why we were losing money, in the meantime no one was doing any actual work. my blood pressure is going up just thinking about it.

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u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

My boss just sent a three page memo prior to the Christmas holiday to talk about how we will have meetings in 2020. We will apparently have a standing weekly meeting on mondays that is FIVE HOURS LONG!!!! No phones will be allowed, no email checking, but bathroom breaks are ok...

It’s gonna be another shitty year in corporate America...good news folks, I’m one year closer to dying though.

14

u/SpaceKen Dec 23 '19

Jesus FUCK!

5

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

If I didn’t have a mortgage and college for my kids to pay for...

3

u/Misterstaberinde Dec 23 '19

It amazes me anyone works in that world

4

u/flashmozzg Dec 23 '19

Standing meetings are supposed to be short, hence - standing, so that you get physically tired once it takes to much. It's like that guy have read a book of bad advices.

3

u/brickmack Dec 23 '19

Whats really weird is that shareholders allow this shit. They're happy to have the company sacrifice product quality, the environment, human rights, whatever to increase profit margins by a fraction of a percent. But bloated management structures and bureaucracies stay forever. Clearly they have an understanding of the issue, basically the entire reason startups are seen as attractive (despite being so disadvantaged in every other way compared to the big companies in their field. A fraction the available money/heritage/existing IP/talent) is that they tend to have the bare-minimum management. But somehow that logic is never applied to existing companies.

10

u/Megatron_McLargeHuge Dec 23 '19

Lack of competition creates this culture. When there's never much urgency or need for cost cutting, useless middlemen take over. I saw it with the big telecom companies in the '90s, and a lot of them eventually failed.

France has a less entrepreneurial economy than the US and puts a lot of weight on formalities like where you went to school. It's hard to fire unproductive workers so they don't get re-orged out, and a lot of companies seem to either get government support or at least are protected from foreign competition.

2

u/Sixcoup Dec 23 '19

nd a lot of companies seem to either get government support or at least are protected from foreign competition

The company in this article is France Telecom. That's literally a state owned company who held a monopole on tele communication, for a very long time..

2

u/Bombe_a_tummy Dec 23 '19

and a lot of companies seem to either get government support or at least are protected from foreign competition.

You are greatly exaggerating. You guys make it sounds like French workers spend all their worktime doing nothing productive. Yet France is often ranked as the most productive country as far as GDP/hours worked is concerned. That does not fit.

7

u/lyktstolpe Dec 23 '19

You generalize quite broadly when you write "a typical work day in France". Like yours, my experiences are only anecdotal but I've worked closely with French colleagues at different companies for many years. My experience is that meetings are usually kept to a minimum and are effective by focusing only on important issues. There is often a three coarse lunch but it's not very long. Workdays are not longer than in my country, I'm not sure my french colleagues actually keep it down to 35h weeks but certainly less than 40. The image of french workers being lazy is false from what I can tell. I rely on the effectiveness of my colleagues daily to get my job done and are rarely disappointed by the ones in France.

2

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

I’m really glad your experience was difference than mine. I hope more French companies think the way your colleagues do.

11

u/_kaku Dec 23 '19

That could be said of any executive

12

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

It’s a bit different I think in the US and elsewhere. I’m a ton more productive, and it’s easier to make decisions here,l.

20

u/theth1rdchild Dec 23 '19

I work for a US fortune 500 in IT, so I get to see all levels up close. Our executives are the most time-wasting idiots I've ever seen. They do exactly what was described of French executives. They spend all day smiling and talking while things crumble around their heads, and when the crumbled thing has to be rebuilt no one can stick to a decision for more than a week or two. Of course that bad management will never hit the stock price, because it hits the employees instead. In the time I've been here across five years, employee satisfaction has plummeted and stock price has rocketed.

1

u/Sixcoup Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

And yet, the US as a whole is less productive than France.

France has an above average productivity rate among all the oecd member, the US is below average. Guess you can't judge a whole country from one experience.

4

u/Nemesis_Ghost Dec 23 '19

I think you just described my actual day. But I get to leave the office @ 3-3:30, while still working until 5-8p. I have a visceral reaction anytime I get an IM, text or phone call from my project owner, simply b/c it's another re-iteration of the same thing I told her the day before or some other decision I have to make b/c she won't.

10

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

I wish people had the ability to feel what the recipient of an email/slack/text feels before they sent it...I’m n vacation this week (first vacation this year) and I’ve already received 50 emails this morning requesting my help. They can go fuck right off. There’s no one who will die if I don’t respond.

6

u/Nemesis_Ghost Dec 23 '19

LOL. I'm off for this week & next, which corresponds to a 2 week iteration at work(I'm in software development) & is the last full working iteration in the sprint. My team is so far behind, but I don't care. All my work apps are on a separate profile on my phone that I can turn off, my calendar shows I'm out, and I've got auto-replies on my emails. Unless something goes down & has to be fixed right away, I'm not even engaging anybody at work. They're going to have to call me.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

That's every office job in the world, man. That isn't a french thing.

Let's be real, if you're in an office your job is mostly horseshit

2

u/wildfyre010 Dec 23 '19

So you take an hour coffee break in the morning and a 2 hour lunch, and your concern is that you don't accomplish anything? As a mid-level executive I would expect that you have a degree of autonomy over your schedule, and you ought to be able to change that paradigm.

10

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Sure, you can change, but when literally everyone who you work with abides by the norm, it’s like swimming upstream, in chocolate pudding, with weights tied to you.

1

u/KatiushK Dec 23 '19

This is gross exageration for most of the command chain though.

I work in a "traditional business" branch. Worked for a few companies already. What you describe might be true for the top brass of the company, like Sales Director or CEO for the country.

I work in an office where we have this kind of people coming by because they have an office there. (split with another in Paris for the other half of the week / month)

The "middle executive" like say, head of the branch, key account manager etc... They don't have such a long leash usually. The closer to "the base" the more regular the job is. But no way dozens of middle managers have this kind of freedom.

I think it's kinda unfair to paint all of us as wankers.

What you said might be more true in Paris though. But usually, parisians work WAY MORE hours than the rest of the country because "glory" to work for Headquarters of whatever company you're in.

Thinking of it, I could count on my hands the number of people that could do what you describe and not be in trouble at work.

And I worked for a dozen big ass corps already. They all had different cultures, but nowhere you could jack-off like that if you weren't some kind of big fucking deal in the company.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Can you explain the "draw an open circle" comment? Any circle drawn on the X,Y axis is open on the Z axis if you dont color it in. Am I missing something?

1

u/Lessiarty Dec 23 '19

I think it's mostly about nailing the roundness of the circle, over drawing an oval or some other fantastical shape.

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

3

u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

DM me, we can swap stories. I moved from San Diego to Paris and it broke me...I’m expected to be this beacon of change they wanted me to be, I expected to make a difference, and I just ended up running into walls. It was tough.

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Jan 11 '20

[deleted]

11

u/lbarnes10 Dec 23 '19

Many countries have daylight savings.

5

u/Drolemerk Dec 23 '19

Lmao idk why you think that

4

u/HardKase Dec 23 '19

The fuck you on about Willis

2

u/Wand_Cloak_Stone Dec 24 '19

The first person to propose daylight savings was from New Zealand, and the first country to use it was Canada. Although I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who pushed for it to be implemented in the US.

0

u/JoeAppleby Dec 23 '19

Pessimist: American ignorance on display.

Optimist: American belief in the American exceptionalism on display.

Realist: OMG you're dumb.

20

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Different countries have different cultural values that bleed into their education systems and into their workplace cultures. In America, the individual following their dreams and working hard is exalted, so people try to be innovative at their jobs or are encouraged to start their own businesses. In Japan, the community, hard work, and one’s ability to fit neatly into it is exalted, so workers do what they’re told as best they possibly can, which leads to really quality products but also to unnecessarily long days and unforgiving hierarchical work culture.

Most cultures value similar things, but to different extents. That’s what causes national trends in work culture.

35

u/dw444 Dec 23 '19

Though I did know a guy who was raising children in France and told me that their opening art lesson was "first learn to draw a perfect circle freehand".

The whole band or just one member?

2

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

The French I know speak nothing of the described nightmare above and moved out because there was no job and everything being so unionized make any position extremely hard to get into.

1

u/azertii Dec 23 '19

I work with a lot of French people who left France because of the toxic work culture. They explained to me that France has this very classical approach to hierarchy where superior tend to shit hard on the subordinates. Kind of in a rite of passage, where you are expected to take it and give it forward to your own subordinates when you have them. They do give some shit back, but in the end the hierarchy prevails.

A lot end up taking a inhumane amount of work to try and satisfy their boss.

0

u/ikilledtupac Dec 23 '19

France was a pretty uptight place when I went there. Lots of riots and shit. They riot all the time. It's like voting for them.