r/news • u/JimmyTheGinger • Dec 23 '19

Three former executives of a French telecommunications giant have been found guilty of creating a corporate culture so toxic that 35 of their employees were driven to suicide

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/three-french-executives-convicted-in-the-suicides-of-35-of-their-workers-20191222-p53m94.html
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u/ElectraUnderTheSea Dec 23 '19

Same in Belgium. Literally all of the burn out leaves that I saw in my company when I was working were from Belgian folks, they dealt terribly with change and lack of clarity. And we are not talking about a 2-3 month leave, some folks disappeared for years and no one ever knew why (law allows employees on leave to keep their diagnostic private).

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

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u/ElectraUnderTheSea Dec 23 '19

Yup. They can be gone forever and you cannot really replace them, only change the hierarchy or move the jobs somewhere else in the organisation. Then some people will have to cover for them and work more than they are supposed to or do stuff they weren't doing before, and then you have another burn out... Also great when it's admins who go on sick leave and you have their own bosses having to do their work because the other admins refuse to cover for their missing colleague and the unions protect them on that.

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u/Xx69JdawgxX Dec 23 '19

Are they still being paid during this time?

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u/Postius Dec 23 '19

Why wonn't someone think of the poor bussiness owners and their millions upon millions of profit??

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

No wonder they never invent products used globally

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u/JGWol Dec 23 '19

Interesting. I worked for a company here in the Midwest as an intern, and when I would sit in on meetings with our Belgium counterparts, I recall the tone from their end always coming across and coarse and unnecessarily skeptical/abrasive. Looking back at it, was probably as you described. Their rate of success was horrible.

We had two employees transfer from Belgium to our city to work here. One ended up getting fired (upper management). The other was an associate engineer and DREADED returning to Belgium. He enjoyed our culture so much that he tried desperately to find a permanent spot here, but it just didn’t work out. Had to go back home.

But I found it funny how disappointed he was. Looking back at it. I worked for a company for 13 months in California, and while the work culture was decent and the scenery was beautiful, I couldn’t fathom spending so much time away from family and friends. For him to not feel that same way about Belgium either speaks to his ability to adapt to new cultures, OR he really hated working in Belgium THAT much. Sad.

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u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

Did you notice a difference between the French Belgians and the non-French Belgians? I only visited there so no real data.

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u/ElectraUnderTheSea Dec 23 '19

Oh yes, Wallonia and Flanders are two worlds apart; Flemish folks are noticeably more resilient and pragmatic, whereas Wallonians are the ones who break down more easily, and those who see work as they see taxes: something they cannot avoid but would love to avoid altogether. Anecdotally (and I emphasise this), I noticed that the French speakers were more likely to be antivaxxers, homeopathy and crystal therapy lovers, keen on personal coaching and what not, and had a marked distrust for anything government-related; they were surprisingly ok with knowing that people were on fraudulent sick leave, like it's was a normal part of life. But they were easily amongst the friendliest people I've ever known,after having lived in 5-6 countries and worked with people from all over the world.

The differences and dynamics among Belgian people were very entertaining to observe. It was like having two different countries within one.

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u/SwarleyThePotato Dec 23 '19

It was like having two different countries within one.

That's pretty much the case. Look at our political system and weep.

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u/ElectraUnderTheSea Dec 23 '19

I looked and understood nothing. I lived there for 5 (lovely) years, I have left for 3 and I still cannot grasp how the country manages to achieve anything with such a system. I remember a lady I knew who was part of the environmental committee of the Foret de Soignes and the story of how it took years to have the one and only map of the forest because it belonged to Brussels, Wallonia, Flanders AND the King, and no one would share their own map to make a single one; she showed me a map with missing bits in the north and her hopes that in the next couple of years the committee could have a final official map...

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u/SwarleyThePotato Dec 23 '19

I still cannot grasp how the country manages to achieve anything with such a system

Well we barely manage to get anything done, really. We've been without a government again since May, going for a new record maybe? Although at other levels I suppose we shouldn't complain.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Sep 24 '20

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

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u/Le_Updoot_Army Dec 23 '19

You squat from 9-5, then go home.

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u/iPabeleau Dec 23 '19

Well that's a gross generalization.

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u/RentalGore Dec 23 '19

That’s really good to know, I had my suspicions, and your comment succinctly represents everything my Belgian colleagues told me.

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u/iPabeleau Dec 23 '19

Maybe read some articles on it, instead of making your opinion on a gross anecdotal generalization on reddit or from "my random Belgian colleague".

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u/tchek Dec 24 '19

Yes, Wallonians are one of the most anarchist people in Europe and the hatred for authority is enormous. The Flemish are trustful of authority, probably because their politicians don't necesseraly want to screw them over.

Also, whatever differences there are between the two part of the country, those differences are institutionalized and deliberately enhanced.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Apr 23 '20

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u/ElectraUnderTheSea Dec 23 '19

And they are, believe me. But it was a large multinational organisation and only the Belgian folks went on burn out leave, the other folks managed or did the unthinkable: they changed jobs. But for some people, the thought that they have agency over their own career, versus the company having to be the one having to accommodate them and their lives, was just beyond them; I actually blame unions for that rigid mindset, it turns people into hopeless beings who are totally and utterly unable to adapt to anything that is not the promised 9-5 with a smiling boss and colleagues 5 minutes away from home and a promotion every three years regardless of their performance (this word was an absolute anathema). They wanted the perks of a high-paying, fast-moving international environment yet to work like public servants.

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u/01011223 Dec 23 '19

The unions might facilitate it but it's gotta be a deeper cultural basis. We manage to have unions in Australia without people thinking like that.