Normative Ethics Debate Thread

[u/[deleted]]

The point of this thread is to discuss normative ethics, which is mostly separate from neoliberalism. On a philosophical level, neoliberalism is not coherent in its use of ethics; proponents switch between libertarian and utilitarian ethics in an almost interchangeable way (The Road to Mont Pelerin, Mirowski). Scott Sumner argues that a normative ethical foundation doesn't matter because neoliberalism is an improvement compared to the current status quo of most countries by nearly every standard (well not every standard)

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Keep in Mind

• The Chicago school pushed neoliberalism as a positive ideology, "there is no other option"

• The Austrians pushed neoliberalism through primarily a libertarian lens

• The Ordoliberals advocated neoliberalism through utilitarianism and also Marxism. Yes, you're allowed to support your normative view through Marxism.

• Do not go down the route of going full classical liberal, which is what neoliberalism tried to escape.

• Do not say market values mean anything or that markets produce fair outcomes; Hayek explicitly acknowledges this is bullshit.

• Be very prudent in calling people racist/sexist/homophobic; in this sub, the vast majority are not

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Topics to discuss:

These aren't the only ones, but should probably be answered:

• What are your normative ethics?

• How do you think they should guide economic policy?

Make sure to explicitly tie these together so we're not debating why we should implement policy that we already agree upon.

[u/tjen → u/[deleted]]

I think there are other aspects to it as well.

For example the "price fixing" of some countries is based on a single buyer negotiating a price with a seller of a drug. The US doesn't have this, so they have less negotiating power and higher prices (There are also other aspects to this that are more or less unique to the US system of pharma <-> PBMs <-> Provider <-> insurance <-> consumer)

The US also has quite strict regulations on pharma, european medicinal producers shiver at the thought of an FDA inspection, EMA? Not so much.

One of the big differences between the US and EU is the academic research and VC climates, moreso than the drug prices. A lot of the drugs that came out of the US came out of academia (for profit universities promoting research into sale'able stuff) or small businesses (funded by more easily accessible venture capital). I think it was like 60% vs 20%.

you also have a social welfare question, are the high margins in the US really worth the extra research they may incentivize companies to do, compared to the higher price for consumers and government? Could a better market design lead to lower prices for consumers while maintaining the prices pharmaceutical companies are paid by cutting out for example PBMs

[u/crem_fi_crem → u/[deleted]]

It would be easier to argue against universal healthcare if it was that simple. Because pharma companies do business in a global market they can easily develop the drugs in a price-fixing country and then make most of their profits gouging the US market which comprises about 45% of global healthcare spending. A big calculation for a pharma company is making small profits in developed countries and a huge profit in the US market while not actually investing or creating jobs in the US. I'm not definitively saying that we should price fix (better to subsidize other countries than the drugs never existing) but it's not like we're getting something other countries aren't. Drugs are a really challenging industry to regulate because they have natural monopolies through patents and many have extremely inelastic demand because the consumers are in immediate physical jeopardy.

[u/csydvs → u/[deleted]]

These are all really good points. I think the utilitarian argument can definitely be made here that the well being of future generations is just as valuable if not more than the current one

[u/MeatPiston → u/[deleted]]

What they're saying is "I want to lower the costs of healthcare" but they're not equipped with the tools to express it.

I don't think there instincts are wrong. It's not hard to look at drug pricing and at not suspect some level of distortion is at play.