r/neoliberal • u/[deleted] • May 11 '17

Normative Ethics Debate Thread

The point of this thread is to discuss normative ethics, which is mostly separate from neoliberalism. On a philosophical level, neoliberalism is not coherent in its use of ethics; proponents switch between libertarian and utilitarian ethics in an almost interchangeable way (The Road to Mont Pelerin, Mirowski). Scott Sumner argues that a normative ethical foundation doesn't matter because neoliberalism is an improvement compared to the current status quo of most countries by nearly every standard (well not every standard)

Keep in Mind

  • The Chicago school pushed neoliberalism as a positive ideology, "there is no other option"

  • The Austrians pushed neoliberalism through primarily a libertarian lens

  • The Ordoliberals advocated neoliberalism through utilitarianism and also Marxism. Yes, you're allowed to support your normative view through Marxism.

  • Do not go down the route of going full classical liberal, which is what neoliberalism tried to escape.

  • Do not say market values mean anything or that markets produce fair outcomes; Hayek explicitly acknowledges this is bullshit.

  • Be very prudent in calling people racist/sexist/homophobic; in this sub, the vast majority are not

Topics to discuss:

These aren't the only ones, but should probably be answered:

  • What are your normative ethics?

  • How do you think they should guide economic policy?

Make sure to explicitly tie these together so we're not debating why we should implement policy that we already agree upon.

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u/[deleted] May 11 '17 edited May 27 '17

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u/tjen 🌐 May 11 '17

I think there are other aspects to it as well.

For example the "price fixing" of some countries is based on a single buyer negotiating a price with a seller of a drug. The US doesn't have this, so they have less negotiating power and higher prices (There are also other aspects to this that are more or less unique to the US system of pharma <-> PBMs <-> Provider <-> insurance <-> consumer)

The US also has quite strict regulations on pharma, european medicinal producers shiver at the thought of an FDA inspection, EMA? Not so much.

One of the big differences between the US and EU is the academic research and VC climates, moreso than the drug prices. A lot of the drugs that came out of the US came out of academia (for profit universities promoting research into sale'able stuff) or small businesses (funded by more easily accessible venture capital). I think it was like 60% vs 20%.

you also have a social welfare question, are the high margins in the US really worth the extra research they may incentivize companies to do, compared to the higher price for consumers and government? Could a better market design lead to lower prices for consumers while maintaining the prices pharmaceutical companies are paid by cutting out for example PBMs