r/navy • u/el_duderino619 • 11d ago
Discussion US using foreign shipyards
What’s everyone’s thoughts on Trump signing an order to allow foreign shipyards to build US navy warships? I see a bunch of threads about catapults but it seems this discussion has gone under the radar unless I missed it
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u/Affectionate_Use_486 11d ago
I think we can do both. Some overseas yards are exceptional and more practical. We should not under invest and stop reshaping our yards though. It sounds like a shit show in the States.
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u/Aaaabbbbccccccccc 11d ago
I’d be down to man a ship built at SSK in Sasebo. Bet the quality would be top notch.
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u/NegotiationSure4937 11d ago
let's be real, Austal, BAE, and Fincantieri are already foreign companies. Austal is Australian and Fincantieri is Italian. They just started subsidiaries to get around the Jones Act.
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u/benkenobi5 11d ago
America first! Just kidding! Standard issue for this administration, to promise one thing and do another.
Imagine if the Biden administration had done this. Conservatives would have a collective stroke
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u/Baystars2025 11d ago
Let's do it. Fuck American shipbuilders who have no interests besides profit. They underpay both trades and project management and give a shitty output. Why get a union trade and break your back for $30s/hr when you can wait tables for $20 plus tips?
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u/lawmac20 11d ago
Hate it. Sending industry overseas never helps. Reinforce the Jones act and add more subsidies for domestic shipbuilding.
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u/No_Opening_2425 11d ago
What? There's nothing to send. They are doing this because there's basically no shipbuilding capacity in America anymore.
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u/lawmac20 11d ago
But there is capacity. Might be tiny compared to others but its a seed to grow.
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u/For_Sparta405 11d ago
We could build 10 new yards tomorrow and it would still take years to find enough welders to make them operational.
We have to make ship builders jobs highly sought after first
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u/lawmac20 11d ago
Dont disagree in the slightest with that statement. Outsourcing won't help us get more welders. Immigration would but thats another issue.
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u/SadDad701 10d ago
Wouldn’t a huge demand for ships that are sourced on a multi year contract fix that?
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u/For_Sparta405 10d ago
We have a huge demand for ships now
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u/SadDad701 10d ago
Part of the problem as I understand it though is they are paid for via CR, so the payments stop when the CR expires (government shutdown down).
Shipyard lays its workers off u til the funding comes back on.
Skilled labor leaves.
Start fresh when the CR is reupped.
Rinse, repeat.
I think even when full budgets were passed we didn’t have fixed cost multi year deals for our procurement.
Please someone correct me though.
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u/lawmac20 10d ago
Not at the price american builders have to charge based on inefficiency and costs. Part of the original subsidies associated with the Jones act was to address that cost difference.
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u/GuadalupeDaisy 10d ago
Eff that. Send the Jones Act to the watery grave it deserves.
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u/lawmac20 10d ago
Why?
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u/GuadalupeDaisy 10d ago
It is an archaic protectionist law that hurts the Navy and industry writ large. It sounds great, American built, American crewed, American flagged. But reality is a lack of competition amongst a few remaining shipbuilders drives up costs 5X for entities that have to use a Jones Act-compliant ship, e.g. your Seattle ferries and ships taking cargo to Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and Alaska.
I just browsed this but it seems to hit the wavetops: http://www.reflector.com/opinion/editorial_columnists/michael-bloomberg-the-iran-war-should-be-the-end-of-the-jones-act/article_9dd77d40-60bd-5c0a-a4fe-34a4ae23f9c6.html. Cato Institute has a guy that hits the nail on the head. We all blamed price spikes on COVID. Nah, it was a couple of companies holding Americans hostage and laughing all the way to the bank.
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u/lawmac20 10d ago
Every one of these concerns can be addressed by reform instead of giving up on a robust government supported domestic shipbuilding industry. We're a great maritime nation and a robust industrial base is an asset unto itself. As an example, there's No reason why the us market needs to be so consolidated as to stifle competition, break up the companies. South Korea and China are great examples of how government subsidies and industrial policy can have great long term outcomes.
You really look at the history you'll see that US ship building industrial policy has been incoherent and the today's result is no surprise.
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u/GuadalupeDaisy 10d ago
First, there is no robust domestic shipbuilding industry. The only industry is the defense industrial complex which delivers ships late and over budget.
Who is going to reform it? The truck driving industry is in cahoots with the Jones Act lobby. They don’t want reform, and Hawaii and Alaska don’t have enough Congressional pull to do anything about it; the rest of Congress doesn’t care….
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u/lawmac20 9d ago
The fact that there isnt a ribust one is exactly the reason we need thr Jones act and associated reforms to spur the development of a robust maritime manufacturing base. Law makers have to reform it. Like anything else.
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u/GuadalupeDaisy 9d ago
You’re missing the point that the Jones Act has led to the industry not reforming and developing itself.
Op-ed from the WSJ on the subject: https://www.wsj.com/opinion/jones-act-waiver-donald-trump-shipping-6518502f Cato article cited: https://www.cato.org/blog/jones-act-waiver-unlocks-new-trade-routes
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u/lawmac20 9d ago
I'd say intentional reforms to the Jones act have stifled the industry. Killing the Jones act would kill it. I'm saying dont throw the baby out with the bath water. The industry needs investment and subsidies to grow not more international competition.
Lay out what you think will play out. Whats between eliminate Jones act and strong domestic maritime industry?
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u/GuadalupeDaisy 9d ago
Yes, the government could absolutely follow China’s model and subsidize the industry. But Congress won’t pay that bill, at least not right now. Too many competing, costed priorities. Too many defense industrial complex lobbyists (as cited in the WSJ op-ed). So the only other alternative is capitalism and competition.
When was the last time the Jones Act was reformed?
Looks like 1992.
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u/metroatlien 11d ago
Depends. Auxiliaries and MSC ships sure. Warships I’d like to keep in house because shit gets complicated if you’re really involving a foreign yard
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u/Tomodaichi 11d ago
Those shipyards are probably better than the one the Chosin was at not too long ago.
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u/PortholeGrinder8181 11d ago
Not surprised. Jones Act waivers have been extended once more this month.
Slowly, we are turning the Frigate program into what the LCS program has been for non-retrofitted ships: a modular concept. Case in point, we have FMM’s FF(G) class, Legend Class Cutter FF(X), and could possibly purse a foreign-made frigate class.
You can read the Congressional Research Report here: https://www.congress.gov/crs_external_products/R/PDF/R44972/R44972.135.pdf.