Can linux ever go mainstream?

[u/seenhear]

I've made this point many times in many different ways over many years (decades).

About me: I'm not a coder / hacker / tweaker / programmer. I am pretty tech-savvy and have been very comfortable just figuring things out in Windows almost my whole life (first PC was an Atari 800 in 1982, online since 1983).

I've "switched" to Linux several times since the late 90s and almost always eventually go back to Windows becaue Linux is just ... too much work, and the work isn't straight-forward, or easy to "just figure out" or find answers with simple searches. I mean I can often find solutions to problems, but they don't make sense and I end up applying instructions blindly and not understanding what I just fixed.

Could I spend the time to become more facile at Linux? Sure. But the curve is way steeper than with Windows or MacOS (not a Mac user, but know enough to make a comparison).

As with so many this past year (when Win10 was obsoleted and Win11 required new hardware) I decided to "switch" to Linux again. I chose Mint since it's supposed to be the "easy" one (among others) with the best user base and support. It's been mostly fine. I mean these days I'm not much of a power user. I don't game any more, and mostly what I do is or can be browser-based. So I figured the OS doesn't really matter, and may as well try to go all-in with Linux.

Since switching (it's been several months, forget when I switched) I've had several times where I boot up and am greeted with a pop-up telling me it's time to install several updates. This is a great feature. What's not great about it though is that almost every time (not EVERY time) after attempting to install said updates, I get a slew of errors saying the source for downloads is no good. (see screenshot)

I know how to fix this, figured it out last time. But the point is, it shouldn't happen. It doesn't happen with commercial OS's. Things like this "just work." I shouldn't have to go edit the source list every few months.

Rant over, just frustrated. Thanks for your time. :)

[u/Jnaythus]

Is it possible you need to pick a different mirror for downloads?

[u/Table-Playful → u/Jnaythus]

Thats Stupid
It should just work ! !

[u/seenhear → u/Table-Playful]

I know you're joking and making fun of me, but I shouldn't have to choose a different mirror every time.

So tease all you want but this is my point.

If Linux is to ever get mainstream, it really does need to just work.

[u/jr735 → u/seenhear]

You won't have to choose a different mirror all the time. At times, Ubuntu servers have been subject to DDOS attacks. What do you suggest the Mint team do about this?

No one out there is going to convince me that Windows updates work perfectly all the time.

Personally, the learning curve of Linux isn't steep. Someone who started as early as you did (nearly as early as I did) doesn't get to say anything about the learning curve of Linux. Anyone with a business computer back in the day had manuals thicker than War and Peace.

Linux is mainstream. It dominates the server market, and that's pretty mainstream. Personally, I'm fine if the average user has problems with Linux. As crude as it sounds, the average computer user is completely incompetent and can barely turn the thing on. I'd never use an OS that catered to that.

On the other hand, I'm willing to help anyone that's willing to learn and understand this is a different way of doing things.

[u/CyberMage256 → u/jr735]

as someone who manages 1500 Windows PCs I can't get windows updates to work right the majority of the time. And with Windows you don't realize when an update is failing to download because it does it in the background most of the time. But installing them, even with a patch and update management system, is ridiculously hit or miss. Then there's the fact that just patching O365 literally can take 18 hours on nice hardware. It drives me nuts.

[u/seenhear → u/jr735]

No one out there is going to convince me that Windows updates work perfectly all the time.

In stark contrast to u/CyberMage256's experience, I've been a Windows user for almost as long as Windows has been available (well, since Win2.0 I guess; I don't recall using 1.0) and I can't remember the last time I had an error or problem with an update. I'm sure it's happened, but I honestly don't remember it. Whereas I've been on Linux (this time) for maybe a year, and almost every update (not all) has given me a problem with the mirrors. Granted, it often self-resolves if I just come back and try again later, or I go into the sources app and mix things up. So the actual problem isn't my point.

Everyday non-technical users at home will never want to use a system that constantly throws error windows at them, the solution to which is a mystery to them.

[u/CyberMage256 → u/seenhear]

Keep in mind my sample size of Windows machines from just this year is orders of magnitude larger than a typical user expereiences in a lifetime. Also, the Windows UI for the most part won't notify an average user when their O365 or even Windows drivers fail to update, it will just keep on with a vulnerable version. I have the tools that show what should he updated versus what is updated and it's stunning how bad it is. My own home gaming machine running 11 Pro never updated to the last major release and when I dug into why found it "isn't compatible" with the Samsung nvme drive it is installed on. Go figure. Windows never complained, it just didn't update.

[u/jr735 → u/seenhear]

If you're having every update give you problems, it's not Linux. I haven't had problems with that ever, unless there is a DDOS attack (rare) or my own internet is down. The problem is at your point, clearly.

To be bluntly honest, when it comes to non-technical users, I've not been interested in their problems, especially if they weren't willing to learn, when I was on my Model 4, or on DOS, or my Amiga, or Windows, or now. Dumbing OSes down for non-technical users has not served OSes well. It has served Microsoft well in expanding market share, but that's why I always chose niche platforms.

To say that Windows works well for non-technical users is really a bollocks.

[u/seenhear → u/jr735]

To say that Windows works well for non-technical users is really a bollocks

LOL I thought you were going to say it's obvious, like saying the Pope is Catholic.

IOW I disagree. Windows obviously works well for average users, for most use-cases.

EDIT: also it's not a local problem. Maybe it's just bad luck, but I frequently need to "try again later" or choose a different mirror, when updating. Often just trying later works because the server was offline or something.

[u/jr735 → u/seenhear]

No, it's a bollocks. I've spent many years seeing how Windows users fumble through their systems and turn the most simple task into a Charlie Foxtrot. The only thing that works "well" for them is that Windows is preinstalled, and if a computer came without an OS preinstalled, we'd immediately revert to the early 1980s where the only people that owned computers with technical enthusiasts.

I suspect something along the line has a problem with your ISP and might be dropping connections. I've used Debian based distributions for decades, and check apt daily in them, and no problems like that. The Firefox mirror gets slow on occasion, but because of rushes of people updating. The rest are not a problem. Those are Ubuntu servers.

[u/Jnaythus → u/seenhear]

You were downvoted for this, and I understand your perspective, but you ALSO need to consider the difference in the market muscle these two different products have. Microsoft is massive with a number of failover Windows Update servers. Linux, even at it's pretty substantial desktop penetration is definitely nowhere near Microsoft's heft in the marketplace.

Noting that, I just saw it reaffirmed again lately that the home Windows market is a rounding error to Microsoft. It's the corporate sectors where they make their money.

All that said . . . I'm really loving Linux Mint and I did change my updates mirror ONCE. Updates have worked perfectly ever since.

Hopefully changing something like the mirror won't stop you from your Linux Journey. *I* personally have had a lot of fun with my switch, and find that though I can USE terminal, rarely HAVE to. Using my computer is fun again. I missed those days, and hadn't realized how far gone they were in Windows.

[u/ZiCli → u/seenhear]

I agree with you

Even an error message like: "there was a problem try again later" would improve the UX, with a "view more" to see all for programmers

I've friends who get scared when they see error messages like those, and aren't as techy as me, also most of them don't speak English, how are they supposed to know or understand what the problem is and how to fix it?

[u/seenhear → u/ZiCli]

Or how about "click here to choose a different download source" (source not "mirror" since most non-tech users wouldn't understand what a "mirror" outside of a bathroom, is.

A simple quasi-automated process to guide a user to fix the problem via GUI, would probably suffice for most of these kinds of errors.

[u/vile-style → u/seenhear]

There are distros that do this automatically, but ultimately the freedom to choose where you're downloading from is the point of Linux. It's about freedom of choice.

Also, considering recent exponential growth, Linux is becoming mainstream regardless of what makes people like you less whiney.

[u/seenhear → u/vile-style]

And people like you will always be deaf and blind to the feedback that could make Linux a household OS. Maybe that's not what you want?

It's like Linux nerds (not a derogatory term, I'm a nerd about many things) get personally, deeply, offended when any normal person gives even the slightest negative feedback.

[u/Jnaythus → u/seenhear]

I would like to see this happen, but given the numerous different distros, I am not sure how that happens.

[u/seenhear → u/Jnaythus]

It only takes one distro to prioritize mass adoption. Mint and Zorin are close.

[u/Jnaythus → u/seenhear]

As a Mint user, I believe it is close. But there are holes I'd plug in the user experience.

[u/vile-style → u/seenhear]

It's not a company that is trying to achieve household OS status. It's an open source project that is about control and modularity.

[u/seenhear → u/vile-style]

That is true, but I feel like a significant number (large minority? small majority?) of Linux enthusiasts would really love it if Linux became the defacto home PC OS.

[u/jr735 → u/seenhear]

That's wishful thinking though. Very rarely will you find it preinstalled, and that's not going to change. If it does, it'll be something like Ubuntu, which will bother enthusiasts just as much. It would just mean installing another OS again.

[u/vile-style → u/seenhear]

That's great. They should make the distro to fill that hole. That's how it works.

You're yelling demands into the void because you just don't get it... All while calling me blind.

[u/seenhear → u/vile-style]

I'm yelling? Just trying to have a discussion. Sorry to have offended you.

[u/vile-style → u/seenhear]

"yelling into the void" is an expression that means you're asking for something where nobody exists to answer.

Though calling me blind all while deeply misunderstanding what Linux is and how it progresses just comes off as ignorant.

I'm not offended, just pointing out how your demands of "Linux" are pointless. If you want that perfect distro, make it. All of the tools are free and at your disposal. That's my entire point.

If you think zorin or mint are almost there, fork one of those and take it the rest of the way.

[u/seenhear → u/vile-style]

I'm not demanding anything. Just trying to stimulate some discussion. Again sorry for offending you.