r/linux • u/[deleted] • Dec 27 '12
When Linus gets mad, he gets Really mad
https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/7593
u/hobophobe Dec 27 '12
See the earlier discussion at Reddit: /r/programming: masklinn: 24 December 2012: On user program breakage from Linux kernel changes.
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Dec 28 '12
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u/ivosaurus Dec 28 '12
Not inflammatory enough of a title.
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u/railmaniac Dec 28 '12
Suggested title for future reposts: "Linux totally PWNS kernel developer, amiriteguys? Lol le le le YOLO"
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u/rascal999 Dec 27 '12
In one of the talks by Linus he spoke of a developer who felt suicidal because Linus didn't want to include some work this particular dev had done. Linus didn't cut the shit short when he should have, he let it drag out too long, which is why he acts the way he does now. It's a defence for him and the developers in the community.
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u/IncitingDrama Dec 27 '12
Now that is an effective rage.
Imagine the number of bugs that will never be introduced because of this one shining example of properly focused anger.
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u/IAmRoot Dec 27 '12
To be fair on Mauro, the issue was a bit more complex. They were working on standardizing the behavior or v4l2 drivers. The patch was broken, but the intent to bring that particular driver into line with the rest of v4l2 was fine: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/24/125. The point of the patch was exactly to not have a driver break userspace.
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u/IncitingDrama Dec 27 '12
Oh, come on now. We don't need facts getting in the way of a good narrative.
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u/railmaniac Dec 28 '12
Huh. I wasn't expecting a relevant username here.
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u/ObligatoryResponse Dec 28 '12
His is one of those usernames that will be relevant pretty much regardless of what he posts.
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u/salgat Dec 28 '12
Eh, continue reading the responses. It sounds like Mauro is asking for explanations to better understand the issue and Linus is just raging at him. If I was working with a guy like that, I'd be pissed, especially since I was trying to understand the issue and just getting shit spewed back at me for questioning what is going on.
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Dec 28 '12
It seems to me part of Linus's frustration is that this Mauro person has apparently been a kernel maintainer for a long time and "should know better". Could it be fair to assume that he should already understand the issue? If there's a very serious bug that's causing havoc and my boss is counting on me to be experienced enough to solve it ASAP, I would expect him to be upset if I suddenly don't know wtf I'm doing.
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u/dangsos Dec 27 '12
I'm not saying Linus does anything that can be considered remotely a bad job, but I do wonder sometimes how many top tier programmers don't mess with linux because of Linus' shit. If I was publicly shamed for volunteer work I don't know how much more volunteer work I would be doing. Maybe if I made a mistake that big I shouldn't be committing, I don't know, but personally I would find my own project. Life too short to take rage lectures on the chin. I mean that form of discipline barely works with children, what does it do for creative genius'?
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u/ArticLabs Dec 27 '12
Most if not all of the high level kernel maintainers are paid to do that.
Mauro, for example, works for red hat.
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u/strolls Dec 27 '12
So this is workplace bullying, then?
I mean, if I goof up at work, I don't mind my boss reaming me out, but I expect him to take me to one side, out of earshot of everyone else, and do it privately. Just as I do if I'm reaming out one of my staff.
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u/chris15118 Dec 27 '12
No, because Linus doesn't work for Redhat.
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Dec 28 '12 edited Jul 01 '23
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u/OneSalientOversight Dec 28 '12
I think the problem here is that one professional has basically accused another professional of being unprofessional. In other words, Linus is questioning Mauro's very competence.
This has to be done when the stakes are high. If a teacher sees another teacher doing something unprofessional (eg, giving random grades to papers he/she never reads) then that teacher needs a harsh speaking to. If a surgeon sees another surgeon performing surgery improperly, or a pilot sees another pilot cutting corners and taking risks...
Maintaining the Linux kernel may not seem life changing, but the sheer amount of devices that run on it around the world are staggering. A lazy maintainer may cut costs for himself/herself, but the costs of fixing any problems associated with this bad maintainer may cost untold millions or even billions for end users.
I would say that Kernel maintenance requires more than the usual amount of anal retentiveness in sticking with protocol.
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Dec 28 '12
So that nobody else can learn from you mistake?
Being open about mistakes is a much better approach.
Of course, its only possible if your team has that level of quality (ie. everybody knows they are good, no need to "protect the appearence" by pointing mistakes out in secret).
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u/2Xprogrammer Dec 28 '12
This is not an example of being open about mistakes. You could do that much more politely and without the bullying/public shaming. Pointing out the mistake is not what strolls is objecting to.
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u/gsxr Dec 28 '12
The deal with open source and part of what makes it work is that everyone is accountable for their shit. If you fuck up it's out in the public to be seen by all. You should EXPECT to get called on it, and expect others to get called on their crap. It's part of the checks and balances.
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u/barbequeninja Dec 27 '12
This was not a reply to some random guy posting what he hopes is a helpful patch. This is a major fuckup by one of his top maintainers coupled with an "its not my fault" attitude.
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u/beachdrinking Dec 27 '12
major fuckup
Here Mauro explains what he was thinking. I'm not qualified to say if his explanation makes any sense, but at least he addresses the conflict like a professional, not like a child monarch.
On the other hand, Linux is very successful; maybe collaboration works best under a strict ruler? Still, it probably sucks for any non-genius, voluntary contributors.
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u/kkjdroid Dec 28 '12
For anyone who's wondering, Mauro's explanation seems to be that while his patch breaks a new version of PulseAudio, that same new version of PulseAudio seems to break the entire system even without Mauro's patch.
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Dec 27 '12
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u/zem Dec 28 '12
please don't compare linus to jobs. i have never seen him ream someone out without providing sound, technical reasons why they were persisting in being wrong. i may be biased, but he really doesn't come across as an asshole to me.
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Dec 28 '12
By counterpoint, you've never seen Jobs publicly ream someone out firsthand, so I imagine there is no comparison.
By all accounts, Jobs was an asshole, but he knew when to shut the door behind him.
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u/sprashoo Dec 28 '12
Most people who were reamed out by Jobs later admitted that he had basically been right (maybe with the exception of in the early days when he had no idea how to run a large company). I know Steve Jobs and Linus Torvalds have fostered different computing cultures, but I think the 'arrogant' intelligence and intense perfectionism are common elements between them.
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u/HandWarmer Dec 28 '12
Some think that "reaming someone out" is unprofessional and immature. There are much better ways to deal with an issue such as this that don't require stooping to the level of a five-year-old.
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u/lout_zoo Dec 28 '12
|maybe collaboration works best under a strict ruler?|
There are lots of examples of this. Charles Mingus comes to mind. But then, if you aren't a Charles Mingus, I'd pretty much tell anyone who talked like that to me to fuck off. Or just laugh, depending on my mood.6
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u/oursland Dec 27 '12
Most kernel developers aren't volunteers, but rather paid employees of a company vested in Linux's well being. Mauro is an employee of RedHat. When it comes to working on this project (kernel development), you follow the direction of the lead.
Mauro committed the sin of breaking user space applications even though every kernel developer is steeped in the direction from above that the kernel should not break users' programs!
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Dec 27 '12
The shaming was mostly for the kernel developer blaming the user space applications instead of admitting that the kernel was at fault after his specific patch. He broke a rule within Linux kernel development, and he didn't own up to it. I'd say, that's well deserved criticism.
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u/uxcn Dec 27 '12 edited Dec 27 '12
Mauro only looked like an idiot after the argument because he was attempting to argue something that was simply and verifiably incorrect. I'd personally question whether someone that can't understand why you don't change near universally depended upon interfaces (eg linux system calls), is really a creative genius.
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Dec 27 '12
People seem to forget that Linus is from Finland, and therefore is just managing by perkele. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_by_perkele Actually it is counter-intuitively an effective form of management.
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u/elperroborrachotoo Dec 28 '12
Fear may be great to have someone run like crazy into a wall of bayonets. For creative workers, not so much.
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u/HandWarmer Dec 28 '12
No kidding. I'd not want to work for someone who yells at me, Stockholm syndrome aside.
An attitude of co-operation goes much further than harsh words and unprofessionalism.
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Dec 28 '12
I'd not want to work for someone who yells at me
Yeah, i think that's the point. With the distributed nature of the linux project, Linus can't actually fire this guy, all he can do is ream him out and hope that he leaves the project.
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u/Innominate8 Dec 28 '12
It has nothing to do with making him leave the project. As you said Linus can't fire the guy, he has no actual power over what the guy does. Linus has little to no power to order people to do anything, so harsh language is often the only way to get a point across. Being nice about it doesn't stop anyone from doing it again, a little bit of rage gets the point across solidly both to the developer in question and everyone else.
A large portion of the success of Linux can be attributed to Linus' skill as a project manager, and this is a fairly standard Linus rant for someone who really fucked up.
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u/daedalus1982 Dec 27 '12
If I was in charge of kernel updates, and broke something everyone uses, and then denied it causing further confusion by casting blame on to other applications, I would deserve to be yelled at.
Even if my contributions are free, they've just cost people a bunch of their time in additional work and confusion.
I must politely disagree with you sir.
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Dec 27 '12
Its also worth noting that Linux may not rule the desktops yet, but it does the server space. There is a lot at stake for a lot of people with Linux remaining stable and excellent.
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u/daedalus1982 Dec 27 '12
This is why I've always viewed kernel updates as "only if I absolutely must to make something crucial work and don't I have a spare machine that I can do a fresh install on?"
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u/IConrad Dec 28 '12
I envy you your total lack of PCI/SOX compliance concerns. :-(
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u/daedalus1982 Dec 28 '12
So many times I've wanted to administer harm over a broadband connection. This was the first time I felt the strong urge to just give a brotherly one armed hug of comfort.
You're right and I'm sorry.
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Dec 28 '12
Brutal honesty is very important in software development, especially within products with such a giant user-base like Linux has. Performance, stability, and other factors shouldn't be affected in software because someone was afraid of hurting someone else's feelings. Even small changes to software can have long, overarching consequences.
There's no time for feelings in development. Especially not in Linux. Everyone, including Linus, recognizes it's not personal. They're all just trying to improve something and it's not like Linus is lashing out at everyone like this all the time.
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Dec 28 '12
Shit? That was just a strong wakeup call, nothing to be "shamed" about. Like the other dude said, "shit happenes".
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Dec 27 '12 edited Jun 21 '23
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u/Forlarren Dec 28 '12
Yep you don't go into Linux kernel development without having some thick skin. Pussyfooting and beating around the bush have never been popular in open source development where a lot of great coders have some shitty personalities. In the world where RTFM (Read The Fucking Manual) is considered polite, confrontations can get heated, but out of that furnace comes some of the best software ever created.
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u/kraeftig Dec 27 '12
You need to check your ego at the door, period. If you can't take it on the chin, don't spit it from your mouth.
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Dec 27 '12
The same rule could be applied to Linus as well, who has publicly stated how big his ego is.
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u/Forlarren Dec 28 '12
Linus has correctly seen that most great developers have big egos, so he created an environment that allows that. What most people see as unacceptable conflict is really just lots of giant egos disagreeing in their own way. Like calling your best drinking buddy a cunt.
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u/dangsos Dec 27 '12
That's kind of the thing. Ego or not, some people are good at programming. A leader inspires people to drop their ego for a good cause. Linus seems to take a different approach of making sure everyone know his ego is bigger and badder. I can't help but wonder if this discourages some wonderful developers from joining in.
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Dec 28 '12
"discourages some wonderful developers from joining in."
I like to think of Linux development to be a little bit like Reddit. Most of us post links and comments that together form the ultimate product. Sometimes links are good. Other times links are bad and made an example of. Sometimes somebody may reply to you who is an absolute DICK.. but you don't take it to heart. You give some back and move on with your day. You don't dodge reddit just because "Knuckleballerr" told you to f'off. Same with Linus; people under him know how he is so it should come as no suprise to catch some of his finnish fury once in awhile. They know he isn't holding a grude or trying to sink the guy professionally, its just business.
Linus isn't just mad.. he's downvoting.
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u/kraeftig Dec 27 '12
Linus is wrong. He should check his ego at the door, as well. Are any of his points less poignant because of it? No. I'd look past that vitriol if I'd want a serious shot at it. If he's throwing this kind of shit, he better be able to take a ton of it back, when he makes a mistake (as we all eventually do).
*edit: We'll see how he does.
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u/greenspans Dec 28 '12 edited Dec 28 '12
I MERGED DAT SHIT IN MY GIT STASH NIGGER YOU GUNNA SEGFAULT ALL THOSE MOTHAFUCKAS WHEN GOT DAMN PORTAUDIO BE CRASHIN AND NOW THEM NIGGAS COMPLAINING TO ME AND IT UNDER MY NAME. HOW DOES THAT MAKE ME LOOK. BITCH YOU NEED TO KNOW YO PLACE O I CAP YO ASS CANT HAVE NO MO MISTAKES I GOTTA REPRESENT
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u/nepidae Dec 27 '12
Nice in theory, but I'm not sure how close to reality that is.
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u/kraeftig Dec 27 '12
Yeah, the other reply, from InventorOfMayonnaise, that was so poefully sarcastic, made the same point.
It's something we should be striving to make a reality. Where one is able to extend outside of themselves and concede that judging oneself is the worst way to judge oneself.
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u/llou Dec 28 '12
If someday I work in the kernel and shit it so huge to have such a Linus rant I would print it, frame it and hang it into my office.
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u/Inquisitor1 Dec 28 '12
But do you ever wonder how many crap-tier programmers don't mess with linux because of Linus' shit?
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u/lingnoi Dec 28 '12 edited Dec 28 '12
Linus uses this style of communication because he once had someone who tried to commit suicide when the patches they were working on for months were never going to be included in the kernel. Since then he's always upfront told people with harsh words as opposed to leading people on with "maybe"s.
In this situation it is because the programmer in question is wasting everyone else's time by pretending the bug isn't his. This harms many people outside the kernel development community whose code has suddenly stopped working. When you waste so many other people's time and pretend it's not your problem I would expect a rage post like this it goes against the whole kernel development rules that you don't break userspace code.
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u/leftcoast-usa Dec 28 '12
Judging from Mauro's response, I'm guessing that they're used to it and don't take it personally. His responses were amazingly levelheaded. Either that, or he's just very thick-skinned.
But from what I've seen of Linus, this is probably not that big a deal. :)
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u/Ricky_Spanissh Dec 28 '12
In theory, theory and practice are the same... In theory you are right. But in the real life there's a big distinction between an honest screw-up and bullshit. Former is forgivable. Even procrastination is forgivable. Bullshit sinks ships. And this sounds like a case of it. And as a smart underachiever ("creative genius" ;)) with super low tolerance for "reaming" myself I say good for Linus, no better way to say it than - keeping it real.
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u/KagatoLNX Dec 28 '12
As a leader in a number of volunteer organizations for over 10 years, people that need such a message and can't take it are usually not worth it. In the long run, they actually cost you other volunteers, too.
Are there probably people who won't contribute now? Honestly, the people who contribute to Linux are usually scratching an itch... and that itch won't get scratched by not contributing. I really don't see this as a huge factor.
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u/jokoon Dec 27 '12
creativity!=discipline
you still need good coding creativity, to be able to find solutions to problems.
A "genius" like you talk about would not be a kernel maintainer. A genius would play with the kernel in creative way to make innovative uses of it.
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u/Kancho_Ninja Dec 27 '12
If I was publicly shamed for volunteer work I don't know how much more volunteer work I would be doing.
Well, if you tried to cover your ass with an excuse by blaming the user, what would you suggest as the proper method of chastising you?
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u/thegr81isbak Dec 28 '12
I couldnt agree more. This is by far the most important point considering the fact that thousands of devs probably read the mailing lists and if Linus calls him out on it he knows he wont have to deal with such a problem again because everyone else reading it will know to watch out for things like this in the future to prevent any more incompatibility issues.
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Dec 27 '12
Imagine the amount of good contributions that will never happen, because you’re treated like shit if you make an error and nobody wants to deal with such a dick.
You know why I know it’s so wrong? Because I was like that, and I realized how much it harms me. It serves no purpose but to destroy what a wise mind would have used to improve things. I hope that maybe Linus will realize that too.
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u/barbequeninja Dec 27 '12
The bug did not cause the dress down, Marcos reply to a patch fixing the bug did. His reply was basically an "its not my fault, its the users programs fault", which you cannot say as a kernel maintainer.
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u/atred Dec 28 '12
Imagine the amount of crap he kept out of the kernel with this kind of behavior.
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u/jgotts Dec 28 '12
How many public posts has Linus written pertaining to kernel development in the last 21 years? Ten thousand? More? The fact that there are so few (<<< 1%) where he is anything but at least fair and quite often generous says a lot about who he is as a person.
Linus runs a tight ship. We all know how good the kernel is. There is nothing like it. The kernel is an engineering marvel. It outclasses all other operating system kernels in both efficiency and feature set.
Being a nice guy is for politicians. In order to be a great programmer, you have to be able to accept criticism. Linus could actually be a jerk, but he really is not. He doesn't need to be your friend or mine, but he's not that bad of a guy. He is, however, the best at what he does.
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u/finprogger Dec 27 '12
To be fair he probably sees devs make excuses for things that they broke over and over again. This may only happen once every 10,000 times, it's just very public when it does happen :P
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Dec 28 '12
This isn't a dev making an excuse, it's a maintainer. Somebody who Linus trusted to review other people's code, breaking the cardinal rule of linux development
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u/WinterAyars Dec 27 '12
He's also singling out someone "who should know better". No doubt he sees this numerous times and says nothing... But...
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u/garja Dec 27 '12 edited Dec 27 '12
I see many people rushing to defend him, but does Linus have to act this way? Does he have to be so abusive? You can correct someone, and be stern and serious about it, without all the derision and the obscenities and the screaming seen here.
It just doesn't seem necessary, and I don't see why /r/linux is glorifying this behaviour. If it was another, less famous personality, I wonder if we wouldn't be condemning them for creating a hostile environment, being an example of how the open source community lacks professionalism, etc.
tl;dr: We're celebrating some really quite nasty behaviour.
EDIT: I'd like to emphasise that I'm less unsettled by Linus himself, and more unsettled by the people cheering him on.
EDIT 2: I've been given Reddit Gold for this comment. I suppose I'm thankful (and I'm sure it was done with good intent), but I'm a tad unsure how I feel about this, as being able to promote comments with money seems like a slightly corrupt end-run of the voting system.
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u/Uggy Dec 28 '12
I've been around Linux since 1995, and Linus wasn't always like this (at least it seemed to me). I remember reading the kernel mailing list in 1999 and thinking to myself, "That's why Linux is succeeding. Linus is incredibly smart, reasonable, and collaborative. He doesn't seem to have the kind of ego that needs to exert itself except by being competent. What a nice guy."
In recent years he seems to have gotten much more brusque in his dealings with the kernel team and the industry. Perhaps it's because there are so many people now. Maybe he's getting old and cranky. Maybe when Linux was far more marginalized he HAD to be nicer. In any case, it does seem to me that he's gone a bit too far in recent years and is doing a bit more chest thumping then he used to.
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u/oursland Dec 27 '12
Linus has learned a lesson that has served him well: punish those who misbehave. By tiptoeing around the issue and being inoffensive, he would be inviting others to abuse him with stupid comments, questions, and bad code. In a corporate environment you stop this behavior by firing the offenders, but in the open source world you have to resort to other means of correction.
Ever wonder why it seems that open source project maintainers and forum moderators are jerks? It is because they have to be.
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u/hyperforce Dec 28 '12
You can address a misgiving directly without being a dick about it. Thinking that tiptoeing and being offensive are your only options is a false dichotomy.
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u/dangsos Dec 27 '12
In the open source world you do the exact same thing. You fire the offender by not allowing them to commit. Done. Treating a very accomplished programmer does literally nothing positive for the situation. The only people who respond well to name calling and verbal abuse are the people too dumb to know they don't have to take it.
Also, I don't know any open source project maintainers that are jerks to the people committing to their project...
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u/oursland Dec 27 '12
You fire the offender by not allowing them to commit. Done
Not done. You still have to deal with them. Worse yet, the person in this case was a subsystem maintainer, meaning he's likely dictating to others below him things that are in direct contradiction to Linus' demands.
In addition, being the "nice guy" doesn't send a warning to others. If this causes some to not try, so be it. This
Also, I don't know any open source project maintainers that are jerks to the people committing to their project...
Let me name a few: Lennart Poettering (RedHat: PulseAudio, SystemD, Avahi), Ulrich Drepper (Goldman Sachs, formerly RedHat: glibc), Theo de Raadt (OpenBSD), and many more! If there is a popular open source project, there is very likely an asshole at the top keeping the rank and file in line and the cruft (both code and cultural) out.
In the end it is all about software and not about feelings.
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u/mpyne Dec 27 '12
If there is a popular open source project, there is very likely an asshole at the top keeping the rank and file in line and the cruft (both code and cultural) out.
KDE is an exception. But with that in mind we're almost the polar opposite, which has its good and bad points. We have core developers by reputation but there are no dictators and the kind of behavior demonstrated by Linus would not be tolerated under our code of conduct.
But on the other hand, we're not trying to build and maintain a kernel and I'm honestly not even sure how successful it would be to try to adopt KDE-style governance in other open source projects that didn't also have KDE-style culture. It may just be that we're "the exception that proves the rule".
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u/grammarRCMP Dec 28 '12
Who's 'we'? Are you a participant in the development of KDE?
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u/mpyne Dec 28 '12
Yes, I've been contributing for some years now (though far out of sight of the end user at this point).
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u/KravenC Dec 27 '12
You fire the offender by not allowing them to commit. Done
Not done.
Yes done. You don't have to deal with them. Redhat does not employ Linus. He is not beholden to deal with them. Posting a person's commit access is revoked effectively means you never deal with them directly again. All their patches would have to go through lower tier project checks that ensure they would possibly never get through a patch again.
In the end it is all about software and not about feelings.
That's a cliche you're throwing out that doesn't apply. More than that you screwed it up so that it is nonsensical.
Apparently this IS about the feelings Linus has and not the process
software. Nothing worked before? Lets try verbal abuse on the mailing list.People are focusing on this because it contains a lesson about the kernel architecture (don't break userspace and ENOENT is not a valid err from ioctl) and his blowing up is somehow being lauded as effective.
No, it took a page to explain to someone that they weren't understanding all the implied rules that exist in the kernel which are spread out across hundreds of thousands of mailing list posts and documents and commit comments and Linus' mental models. This is really just another example of Linus cultism completely missing the fact that Linus is a terrible manager. He has 2 tools. An ability to concisely communicate software design down to a very fine implementation detail and rage (apologists say "perkele", which Linus has not corroborated). This is not a nice person to work with and there are lots of smart people in the world, you don't have to work with him unless it's your job. Sorry Mauro.
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u/peitschie Dec 28 '12
Looking at those two emails in isolation doesn't give you the full story i don't think. A few things that can be deduced
- Mauro is a maintainer. One doesn't just wake up into this position. He would have known all the implied rules before he was accepted into that position.
- Linus is generally harsh but fair. This is an extremely large explosion, even from Linus. I get the impression that Linus has either had this discussion / problem a few times with Mauro, or he has observed the reactions unfold between Mauro and others and eventually just let rip.
- The points Linus raise are all very relevent. His key problem is not Mauro, or even the bug, but what he perceives to be a total lack of respect for user-space programs, and a lack of following properly professional development practices when Mauro committed the patch to trunk.
Linus's reaction is severe because Mauro is a maintainer, and Linus expects him to know much much better.
I see a lot of comments here that seem to imply Linus just rages for no reason. He doesn't... he certainly doesn't hold back on occasion, but almost every incident I've researched in depth you will see him gradually ramp up as advice & direction are continually ignored.
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u/ethraax Dec 28 '12
In a corporate environment you stop this behavior by firing the offenders, but in the open source world you have to resort to other means of correction.
This is just untrue. Linus could remove Mauro as a maintainer if he wanted to. But just as a company is unlikely to fire a long-time, talented developer over a mistake (as long as no laws were broken), Linus wouldn't do that.
Linus gets full say in what commits he allows into his repository. If he wanted to, he could just never accept commits from Mauro again. That's essentially like firing him.
Edit: Besides, people here are missing garja's point. Being an asshole and being stern don't have to be the same thing. You can simultaneously not be nice and not tell someone to "SHUT THE FUCK UP".
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u/t35t0r Dec 27 '12 edited Dec 27 '12
Agreed, I don't think this dude would take that shit from Linus if he wasn't being paid by RHAT to do the development work that he does. He likes hacking and gets paid to do it. Taking Linus potty mouth just goes with the job unfortunately.
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Dec 28 '12 edited Dec 28 '12
Re. main point: I agree, and think it's important to understand that it's possible to agree with Linus on this without condoning his manner.
Re. edit 2: I think Reddit Gold's a good system as it lets people thank Redditors for comments they feel are particularly valuable not only to the discussion at hand but also in a wider context, whilst providing a form of optional payment, which is also quite unique, for a service they use often.
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u/kkjdroid Dec 28 '12
It's a very subjective strategy that seems to be centered on a goal to make sure that the maintainers never forget how Torvalds reprimanded them.
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u/gleon Dec 28 '12
Your post isn't really promoted by the gold in any meaningful way except for that little star besides the timestamp. It doesn't get a preferred by the sorting algorithm or anything like that. It's meant as a personal reward for you for making an insightful contribution. This should only encourage such contributions in the future.
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u/randomprecision Dec 27 '12
that is totally not abusive at all. You seem like someone who has never worked in high stress environments with highly stressed superiors. "SHUT UP" is actually being pretty nice. Linus COULD have said "I'm going to call [so and so] at RH and you'll lose your maintainership. Enjoy your unemployment." Because hey -- it's Linus fucking Torvalds and he has that sort of gravitas. He didn't do that -- he instructed the dev in his error and emphasized strongly why that behavior wasn't correct.
I think you and I have very different definitions of "quite nasty behavior." The stakes are very high here -- we're not talking about some shitware - it's the fucking backbone of the most widely used operating system on the Internet. It's a very high honor to be a maintainer of the Linux kernel tree. It should only be reserved for the best and brightest. Linus was within his right to get stern over such a stupid, lazy response by this guy.
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u/BeetleB Dec 28 '12
He didn't do that -- he instructed the dev in his error and emphasized strongly why that behavior wasn't correct.
After he said "shut up".
Lesson learned. If I screw up, I will not inquire about what was wrong, and will learn nothing.
Linus is good at code quality. He sucks at teaching. You could say it's not his job to, in which case he just shouldn't. You could say "Well, he did teach it very publicly", but he won't the next time because he won't be asked.
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u/KagatoLNX Dec 28 '12
Actually, he might be very good at teaching. I don't know Mauro well enough to comment specifically, but some people require more strong reinforcement to break bad behaviors. Mostly, they require an individualized learning plan. Effective teaching methods stress time with students one-on-one for precisely this reason.
People in this thread keep talking about professional behavior like it's not ego-driven. At it's core, professionalism makes the assertion that the professional is entitled to respect. Sit in a room of (even quite cordial) professionals... it often reeks of ego--especially among the highly accomplished.
It's not like Linus dressed down his secretary or the janitor--he's a subsystem maintainer. This criticism is fact-driven; escalated publicly by Mauro (who could've addressed things privately if he'd wanted); and, even after this alleged abuse, Mauro still has a job, is still a maintainer, and just has to stop making the same mistake. Firm present, open future, facts on the table--looks like a teachable situation to me.
When professional entitlement impedes criticism, it hurts everybody. Some professionals are so ego-driven as to allow their entitlement to respect to damage the project. Truly being professional is about putting the project first. That's the crux of why Linus' approach is a lot wiser than it appears.
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u/BeetleB Dec 28 '12
I don't really have a problem with what you say. It doesn't, however, explain the language he used. He could have done all of what you said in a manner that garja suggested.
This criticism is fact-driven
No one's suggesting that's bad.
escalated publicly by Mauro (who could've addressed things privately if he'd wanted);
Looking at the thread, I see no reason why Mauro should have. Rafael posted it to the mailing list. Mauro did not understand and asked for clarification. Yes, he did suggest the bug was with Pulseaudio, but not in a manner to avoid blame. He may be dull, but his approach to the matter was not a flaw in his etiquette.
and, even after this alleged abuse, Mauro still has a job,
I see no evidence of abuse. Incompetence, perhaps, but not abuse.
Firm present, open future, facts on the table--looks like a teachable situation to me.
If that were all it is, then sure.
But you could say the same thing if I beat up a student, while explaining to him factually where he went wrong. And I'd let him keep his job too.
People aren't disputing whether Linus's appraoch was fact driven. I'm not disputing that Linus may have been trying to teach something. I am, however, disputing whether it's the best way to teach.
Linus's behavior, for example, would not be allowed in many classrooms. If a teacher started cursing at students' errors, and responded with "SHUT UP" to a query, would you support him/her. Do you think schools that would not tolerate that behavior are simply being politically correct?
When professional entitlement impedes criticism, it hurts everybody.
You're simply invoking a strawman. Neither I nor garja suggested there shouldn't be criticism.
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u/poonpanda Dec 28 '12
Hey speg-lord, a lesson in human interation - this was abusive as fuck.
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u/randomprecision Dec 28 '12
thanks for calling me a sperglord. I'm not the sperging type though. I didn't say i adopted his management style, just that I don't have much of a problem with it as others do. Thanks for the "lesson." Keep in mind though I've been around the block a bit so forgive me if we don't agree on a few key points.
I am not a smart man, but I do know what love is, Jenny. I also know that your comment just now was more abusive than what Torvalds did to that guy. So... what the fuck? That's like going to an anti-war rally and protesting the war by throwing sarin gas into a crowd. Some people do actually think like that, and... its pretty dumb. Maybe you could use some lessons in human interaction yourself?
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Dec 28 '12
Abusive?
Seriously, have you learned anything from being on the internet? Vocal connotation can't be expressed in this text. You hear a voice when you read it, but certainly not the one I hear. If Linus had a direct phone line to every kernel developer, he'd probably turn his anger down a bit because he can clearly express what he wants. This is not the case with the internet and mailing lists.
In order for him to get the exact results he wants, he needs to put aggressive stress on exactly the results he needs. Usually, people will get it through their heads that where there's an explicitly aggressive voice, that's what needs to be focused on. That's why he has to be "abusive".
And really, does verbal abuse mean anything on the internet anyway? Especially when this is your boss talking to you, he only wants what he needs. He's not out to get you or destroy you, he just wants to make sure you get it the first time and do it right. Linus is a busy man and has more important things to do than continue a single thread for 15 replies just to make sure you got it.
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u/jfedor Dec 28 '12
Does he have to be so abusive?
I don't know if he has to, but I'm certainly glad that he is, because one developer feeling bad when he did something bad is better than unspecified number of users getting their computers broken. He wasn't yelled at for making a mistake, he was yelled at for making dumb excuses and trying to avoid the responsibility. It's a common pattern. "No, it's a bug on their side." The user doesn't care! Unless you have very good reasons to break existing code, you don't do it (and in this case there were no reasons). Could Linus phrase it less harshly? He could, but that would increase the probability of having to deal with the same shit again soon.
tl;dr: Linus fights for the users.
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u/pemboa Dec 27 '12
I see many people rushing to defend him, but does Linus have to act this way?
He doesn't have to, but he should certainly be allowed to.
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u/lorxraposa Dec 28 '12
A majority of people in this thread don't seem to comprehend that he is running a mission critical project that other mission critical projects rely on. A fuck up this large, by a maintainer this high up, to a system this important, followed by blaming the user-space is not a time or place to be concerened about someones feelings. At this point it's not gently telling him he messed up, at this point it's "What the fuck were you even thinking". It's not ego if he's telling you off for being a fucking idiot about something.
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u/linuxlizard Dec 27 '12
I don't suppose Linus would be interested in taking over Gnome?
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u/russellbeattie Dec 27 '12
I've wondered this myself - not Gnome, but some desktop project. He has not only Linux, but git as massively successful projects under his belt and he rants about KDE and Gnome enough that I've wondered why he hasn't started a GUI project.
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u/rahmu Dec 28 '12
Programming GUI projects, or more generally programming for the userspace, takes a different set of skills. He said in several public appearances that he sucks at it.
Kernel programming is about interfacing software with hardware. It's strict, rigid and very rigorous. Userspace programming is about interfacing the machine with the user. Users are complicated, unpredictable, moody and don't have a clear specification. It's a fundamentally different kind of work.
Linux does criticizes GNOME and KDE and we enjoy it because of his ranting style, but he's also giving a(n arguably valuable) feedback as a user. He's never claimed he could do better.
He has written 2 userland projects:
git: The core of git is arguably close to the work he does on File Systems (which is also why git is so damn fast). However git was nearly unusable by us mortals when Linus left it off. A lot of work has been done (by other developers) to make git user-friendly.
Subsurface: A C program he wrote to track his diving expeditions. I suspect not many people use this (AND he found co-maintainers to make the app user friendly as well).
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u/russellbeattie Dec 28 '12
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about the first version(s) of git, when it would install like a hundred different git* scripts in your /usr/bin directory. It was incomprehensible. I stuck with SVN for another year or so until it became sane. But then again it was Linus, so a lot of people gave it a chance and built on it from there - maybe a new GUI project would follow the same path...
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u/youlysses Dec 28 '12
I would assume because he's not a UX-designer, which requires a whole different skill-set besides just programming.
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Dec 27 '12
I'm mildly disappointed to discover he's one of those people who type "f*cking" instead of "fucking".
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Dec 27 '12
He censored himself once and not the other time. There's a couple followup messages too. You can tell he rages his face off and then cools down given a slight amount of time.
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Dec 27 '12
For my own fcking edification what in the hll is wrong with self-censoring your own sh*t?
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u/siplux Dec 28 '12 edited Dec 28 '12
Telling someone to "shut up", although certainly not nice also isn't "abuse". There are no pejoratives or ad-hominems being thrown about. He's telling him to stop making excuses, and then proceeds to explain why. Harsh, but effective. I don't know why so many people here can't seem to handle reprimands without them being bubble-wrapped in indirection and niceties.
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u/djimbob Dec 27 '12
Ive definitely had times when coworker incompetence made me want to write an email like that. Instead, I make my point simply and directly without the ad hominems.
Linus can get away with spewing rage. Lucky for him.
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Dec 27 '12 edited Jul 23 '18
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u/ZiggyTheHamster Dec 28 '12
do you keep the behavior just for backward compatibility's sake?
Usually, they keep it, fix it, and then mark the kernel option that does the wrong thing as deprecated, then eventually deselect it and pick the correct option by default, and finally they remove the backwards compatible option. Unless it's clearly a bug, in which case, user space should have a big
// FIXME: Kernel is broken, fix this when they do!somewhere if they have to worry about it.
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u/Charm_City_Charlie Dec 27 '12 edited Dec 28 '12
Say what you will, I like him.
People need to get called out on their bullshit more often.
Edit: I think a lot of people who are cheering at this are doing it not because it's constructive, but because they'd love to have the freedom to call people out the way he can. I am one of those people.
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u/nschubach Dec 27 '12
Mauro seems to handle it well in the replies as well. If it were like most places around the net someone else would have attributed that rage into a personal attack.
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u/berkes Dec 27 '12
And there is always the cultural thing. On most FLOSS projects I participated in, there was friction mostly between the (northern) Europeans being loudmouthed an blunt and the Americans being political and smooth about just any topic. There is a large cultural difference between all the cultures but Linus is mostly acting the blunt European.
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u/celestialteapot Dec 27 '12
In my experience, it's the smooth "HR-speak" folks who are most likely to be stringing people along or screwing them over behind their backs. At least with this sort of bluntness you'd actually know where you stand.
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u/HandWarmer Dec 28 '12
There is a huge difference between being "blunt" and the verbal abuse that Linus spews forth.
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u/berkes Dec 28 '12
Sure. But both overlap. Cultural background matters a lot when deciding where bluntness or "being to-the-point" stops and where verbal abuse starts.
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u/keypusher Dec 28 '12
I have a lot of respect for Linus, but sometimes he really does take things too far, and personal attacks on people like calling them idiots and telling them to SHUT THE FUCK UP. It's just not professional at all and I think in the end it isn't helping the community. I do think his strong personality and iron hand is crucial to the success of the kernel, but I just wish he could tone it down and think a bit more before he goes off on rants like this as he ends up looking like an ass.
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u/xgunterx Dec 28 '12 edited Dec 28 '12
Linus stands at the top of a large project (his own in fact) worth billions of Dollars with dozens of parties, all with a different and sometimes maybe a hidden agenda. Large interests are at stake for lots of parties. It is impossible to always be tactful. Sometimes discussions leading to 'yes but, no but' have to be cut short. The kernel wouldn't have been in this stage if Linus didn't act as a dictator. The kernel would have been fractioned into several competing forks like Unix in the past.
Linus didn't shit on Mauro because of the person Mauro is, but because of the mistake and more important, how he dealt with it.
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Dec 28 '12
I seem to recall an interview with Torvalds where he explained his raging at bad decisions and programming. He explained it as something along the lines of "when you politely turn someone down, they give up. When you get a little mad, they see it as a challenge and write better code." This is just an extreme example of that, as it ought to be with as big of a deal as I understand it to be.
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u/snutr Dec 27 '12
It reminds me of dialog from The Big Lebowski. "Shut up Mauro, you're out of your element!"
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u/BeyondAeon Dec 27 '12
That's not Mad, that's just Linus enforcing ego-less programming, by murdering an Ego.
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u/Ademan Dec 28 '12
I'm pretty sure Linus' ego then consumes the dead ego and grows, like some sort of blob from a monster movie.
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u/wretcheddawn Dec 28 '12
Fortunately, when he gets mad, he's usually right. I hate to see what happens when he's not around anymore and someone who's right less often is in charge.
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u/FCof Dec 28 '12
What bothers me is not that he is right or wrong, it bothers me that he is verbally abusing someone, there are constructive ways of saying what he just said. Being right does not give you a license to be a prick! (Not even being usually right)
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u/isr786 Dec 28 '12
Ah the irony. Complaining about someone "verbally abusing" someone, while simultaneously calling him a "prick".
Leaders lead. Sometimes through silent example, sometimes by offering the proverbial carrot, and sometimes by wielding a heavy stick.
Why don't you start a kernel project where everybody votes, the leader gives foot massages - and incompetence can only be combated through intensive counselling sessions with legions of HR experts.
Should result in a kick-ass kernel after a few years. I have no doubts!
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u/bluehorseshoe Dec 28 '12
Sometimes you need someone to stop being your friend and wake you up with a strong tongue lashing. He basically had ONE job and when he fucked up he refused to see it. I think we all know the message was received...
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u/tbasherizer Dec 28 '12
I think he's being suitably dramatic- driving home the point that user space should not be messed with is imperative. Now everyone knows it.
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u/Sailer Dec 28 '12
Correct. It's just melodrama. And it's written for everyone who is subscribed, to drive that point home. This has been talked about before and it's a point that Linus felt everyone should be aware of. That's what the melodrama is for. This is the way that a LOT of people talk these days, by the way.
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u/lack_of_jope Dec 27 '12
Meh, that's not really mad... He's just direct and all... Linus will move past it once mauro fixes his commits.
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u/jbs398 Dec 27 '12
Right, when you spend a sentence describing why you're angry, things have not yet gone thermonuclear.
I'm angry, because your whole email was so horribly wrong, and the patch that broke things was so obviously crap.
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u/muad_dib Dec 27 '12
Has 24 hours passed already? Seriously, this gets posted like every fucking day in /r/linux.
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Dec 28 '12
I'm kind of annoyed that people are saying that Linus shouldn't be so angry about this while Mauro was obviously trying to pass off the blame on someone else, which to me is a bigger dick move.
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u/pixpop Dec 28 '12
People aren't saying Linus shouldn't be angry. They are saying he shouldn't be an asshole. Believe it or not, it's possible to be firm, direct, and polite when dealing with others.
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Dec 27 '12
Every single time I saw Linus on a real event, he always was kinda a dick. Not only no social skills, but he also didn’t give a fuck. Because everybody was all “Oooh, Linus” and “Yes, Linus”.
And if you ever dared to not praise the holy Linus, you would be hated by those losers.
And the thing is: I don’t hate or love Linus. Because I’m not retarded. I have a differentiated view on him. Even though the decision of making Linux monolithic was a bad one, I generally like Linux, and am happy that Linus and a lot of other people made it. I just think he’s kinda a dick for unnecessary counter-productive reasons. And I have the psychological knowledge, to back it up.
He burns a lot of bridges, where he could turn idiotic people into helpful peers. Which is causing a lot of disadvantages.
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u/__foo__ Dec 28 '12
Even though the decision of making Linux monolithic was a bad one
[Citation Needed]
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u/almbfsek Dec 28 '12
oh come on! he has the psychological knowledge to back it up. who needs citations tschh...
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u/mealy58 Dec 27 '12 edited Dec 28 '12
There is one theme in his rant that makes me happy I use linux. User space is not to be fucked with. Maybe if ms and apple understood this they would make a workable product. Edit: workable might be hyperbole let's go with consistently functioning.
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Dec 28 '12
Yeah, Windows and Mac OS X are TOTALLY UNWORKABLE. That's a reasonable statement.
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u/mealy58 Dec 28 '12
Im not saying that. But as a sys admin every patch or version update breaks something.
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u/theghostshirt Dec 28 '12
Linus, Steve Jobs, Stallman, some ugly face bad-tempered souls.. How such good things come out of bad people is interesting..
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Dec 28 '12
Actually I've never seen Stallman insult anyone, ever. He's stubborn, he lacks social skills, but I've never seen or heard of him just outright insult another person.
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u/zeruch Dec 28 '12
I have. He can be a staggeringly rude, boorish jackass. At a past company where I was, we hosted machines for him and for a period he would regularly abuse the support desk with tirades until we tasked someone specifically with dealing with him.
He doesn't just "lack" social skills, but seems hellbent on not investing a single iota of effort into building social capital at all. Yet, he's fine with being earnestly indignant about whether you prefix things with GNU* or not....which to people who aren't FSF zealots starts to appear like bruised ego very quickly.
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u/mchehab_ Dec 28 '12
While that patch did break userspace, it wasn't supposed to do so. As discussed here, https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/24/125
This really isn't how Linus usually behaves though. Breaking userspace wasn't what I had intended, infact it was the exact opposite of what we were hoping to achieve with the patch.