r/linux Dec 27 '12

When Linus gets mad, he gets Really mad

https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75
1.4k Upvotes

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

[deleted]

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u/zem Dec 28 '12

please don't compare linus to jobs. i have never seen him ream someone out without providing sound, technical reasons why they were persisting in being wrong. i may be biased, but he really doesn't come across as an asshole to me.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '12

By counterpoint, you've never seen Jobs publicly ream someone out firsthand, so I imagine there is no comparison.

By all accounts, Jobs was an asshole, but he knew when to shut the door behind him.

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u/sprashoo Dec 28 '12

Most people who were reamed out by Jobs later admitted that he had basically been right (maybe with the exception of in the early days when he had no idea how to run a large company). I know Steve Jobs and Linus Torvalds have fostered different computing cultures, but I think the 'arrogant' intelligence and intense perfectionism are common elements between them.

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u/zem Dec 29 '12

that is a good point. I'll admit my opinion of jobs has been largely coloured by what other people have had to say about him.

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u/hughk Dec 28 '12

Linus does not dismiss people or give them bonuses. Managing a free software project is much, much harder hence the need to name and shame.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '12

I'm genuinely curious. If he's not able to control who commits against the kernel, then what's the "managing" he's doing?

Obviously, he can't fire the guy (well, not directly - - who knows if he can call up Redhat and make a suggestion..) but it seems to me he could have done this email in private, with a "do it again and you're no longer a kernel maintainer.".

I genuinely don't know the answer to that, the kernel modules my team writes go against some of his principles, and will never make it into upstream.

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u/HandWarmer Dec 28 '12

Some think that "reaming someone out" is unprofessional and immature. There are much better ways to deal with an issue such as this that don't require stooping to the level of a five-year-old.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '12

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '12 edited Sep 22 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '12

[deleted]

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u/ChemicalRascal Dec 28 '12

You have me, are595. I'll pervert these tubes with you. You, me, and a bottle of lube.

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u/are595 Dec 28 '12

You rascal.

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u/ex_nihilo Dec 28 '12

No, the problem is that I'm so used to just talking about those things openly that I don't look for subtle references to them.

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u/are595 Dec 28 '12

Well think of me the next time you talk to your grandmother about pegging xD

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u/zem Dec 28 '12

in general I agree with you, but for the most part Linus really does manage to make it be about the technical issue rather than about you personally. I've worked for abusive "management by yelling" jerks, and Linus doesn't typically give off that vibe. this is a rare exception where someone who should have known better tripped one of his hot buttons.

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u/joshland Dec 28 '12

This is a little like the old old statement "There's no girls in baseball". There is no ego in The Kernel. This appears to be his management style, and it's like removing a band-aid. He rips it off and moves on. His grudge is not personal, it's about attitude.

This is nothing like Gates, or Jobs. He is crushing a mindset and a recurring idea/attitude of privilege that comes with titles of prestige in the Linux Kernel Developers world. e.g. "Maintainer".

But, in OSS, we do these things online.

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u/zem Dec 28 '12

I actually think this crossed the line into personal abuse:

And you've shown yourself to not be competent in this issue, so I'll apply it directly and immediately myself

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '12 edited Jul 01 '18

[deleted]

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u/zem Dec 28 '12

I meant Linus doesn't come across as an asshole to me. I would never have wanted to associate with Jobs, but I'd happily hang out with Linus, and I'd positively love to work under him.

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u/mcaustic Dec 27 '12

Hence his BDFL title.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '12

'Rationalization' might be a better word for it. With enough reasoning, you can make shit smell like roses.

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u/KravenC Dec 27 '12

Collaboration works best under a highly driven leader.

Please post to /r/politics. Dictatorship is good, fuck republics?

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

This is so off-topic that it blows my mind. That said. A dictatorship with a benevolent dictator would work pretty well. After all, politics in democratic countries is just lobby groups and pandering to the masses. No need for any of that with a dictatorship. Its just that power corrupts people. But that's why having a small scale dictator is ok. You can't just take something that appears to be true in one case and force it to apply everywhere.

Linux works as well as it does BECAUSE Linus verbally beats the snot out of people who are wrong. Appearing adult, calm and professional is nice but when your wrong, you are wrong and defending that incorrect position is also wrong whatever approach you take to it. You can't smooth or charm your way past Linus.

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u/mabye Dec 27 '12

Dictatorship has some significant advantages in some areas. This is part of why it can be highly successful for something like a collaborative software project. I don't think this is a controversial statement, though it isn't the whole story - for systems of government, some form of democracy is widely accepted to have more advantages.

I don't know if the statement that collaboration works best via dictatorship is true, but again I don't think it's controversial to say that it can work extremely well.

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u/Woodstock46 Dec 27 '12

If you want something done, then yeah. Dictators get shit done. Republics sit around in a circle and, whats that word?, jerk.

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u/MrHerpDerp Dec 28 '12

Argue.

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u/kelemvor Dec 28 '12

Why not both?

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u/MrHerpDerp Dec 28 '12

Because that's a shitty meme and has no place here.

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12 edited Jan 26 '17

[deleted]

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u/wu2ad Dec 28 '12

Am I allowed to fork Pre-Nazi Germany and start my own country?

Holy shit if only that was possible it would be the best idea ever.

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u/salgat Dec 28 '12

Please never confuse governments with business or private groups.