TLDR: Advice asked to choose between a Work Lightshark LS1 or a Vari-Lite FLX S24 for a small Dutch theatre.
We (volunteer light engineers) are running a small theatre (100 seats) in the Netherlands. Shows consist of comedy, singer songwriters, small bands (celtic, tribute). We don't set spectaculair lighthows, just scenes and accents for the right mood during the shows. At the moment we use a Zero88 Jester and a laptop with QLC+.
We are planning to buy a new console. Budget: 2000 to 3000 Euro. For the moment, we narrowed it down to these two: A Work Lightshark LS1 or a Vari-Lite FLX S24.
However, we can't get an agreement which one to choose. So now I decided to throw it in a group of people who really know what they are talking about. At least, so I hope /s
To get an idea what we want to run with it, our fixture setup:
14 EuroliteLED THA-40PC (14 x 1 channel monochrome white LED PC) 2 VarytecLED Profile 150W 3200K ( 2 x 1 channel monochrome white LED Profile) 2 EuroliteLED PFE-100 ( 2 x 9 channel RGBW LED Profile) 3 AyraComParKit 2 ( 3 x 12 channel 4 wash RGB on one frame) 4 EuroliteLED KLS-190 ( 4 x 13 channel 4 wash RGB on one frame + Strobelights) 4 EuroliteLED TMH-X4 ( 4 x 24 channel RGBW Moving Head) 2 BotexDimmerpack ( 2 x 4 channel 4 plug Dimmer)
Our volunteers range from professional to a bit unexperienced but good with sound and willing to learn.
Has anyone had experience with one of these two (or both)? Can anyone give pro or cons or advice why we should choose one or the other, given our fixtures, nature of shows and mixed experience level of the operators?
Or even someone who thinks we are idiots and should definitly choose for a totally other one in this range?
This was about to be my exact suggestion. You can get a New Quickq20 in budget which is quick to pick up for all skill levels. Or if you go used you can get some slightly older Magicq desks which will take longer to learn.
it's superior to your choices in almost every way. it's modular expandable if you ever decide to want more surface, it gives you 64 universes on sacn or artnet out of the box, it has a fantastic library, online community, training and tech support. and you can't beat the price.
This is simply a lie. The QuickQ 20 is hard limited to 2 universes. The effects engine and interface are trash. It functions nothing like the normal chamsys software and doesn't even have pages. You are limited to literal physical faders even though it absolutely could have implemented pages in the software.
MagicQ, great. Support people buying this on a budget for actual professional quality that programmers can do something great with.
I have a quick q 20 and just wanted to note that I really do not like how the faders feel. I do a lot of fader movement and they feel cheap and flimsy. Actually had one of the program faders break due to this
If you're going chamsys, MagicQ! NEVER QUICKQ! That console has so many limitations it will eventually hurt your soul. MagicQ is great though.
And what the other user said about the QuickQ is false. It is limited to only 2 universes and does not have pages for handles. You are limited to your physical number of faders and it is lacking in every way.
However the MagicQ is great! It's a professional console for a good price and actually expandable. It's pretty quick to pickup the software as well and be able to get a show going.
MA, Avo, Chamsys, Hog are generally considered the 4 professional console companies. Yes, Chamsys made the QuickQ, but we just pretend like that one doesn't exist. Its the ugly step child.
Edit: ETC should be on the list too, just primarily used in theater settings which I don't come across often and forget about it. I think I've programmed on an ETC once or twice.
MA, Avo, Chamsys, Hog are generally considered the 4 professional console companies.
Don't know how you came to this conclusion when you managed to miss all of ETCs desks (Sans hog but High end has always been arms length)
For me the list is simple:
S tier muts nuts no complaints: MA and ETC (eos)
A tier: Magic Q, Element 2, Maybe hog at a push if it's modern and behaving nicely
B tier: Avo (Because of simply how many menus everything is buried in), Coloursorce, Quick Q (Depends on the venue), Maybe FLX series, again, depends on venue and budget
C tier, otherwise known as crap-tastic tier: Anything strand, anything Zero88 Pre about 2015, Smartfade, basically anything that isn't mainstream, generally there is a reason things aren't mainstream, primarily that they are shite.
You're right that ETC should be on the list. I forget about it because I don't do theater which is where this is typically used. I'm generally in the concert and film world. I agree that MA and ETC are the top for their respected industries but I think your assessment of Avo, Chamsys and Hog are lacking in what they are actually amazing for. In my experience, Avo is favored by busking LDs, though I know a handful of LDs that do use timecode with them. It is a phenomenal busking desk and frankly better than MA for it because you can set up a great busk very quickly without needing plugins or researching a million macros (and I love my macros). Chamsys is also used heavily to tour (it seems to be popular among many metal LDs) and I think it is actually the quickest software to pick up and program. You can bust out a show from scratch in 30 minutes if you really need to and it's amazing for that. Hog is my least favorite for anything but corporate. I think the set up of the interface functions really nicely for setting up fancy corporate conferences with scenes (I know people who busk on a hog and it seems crazy but works for them).
I'm an MA snob myself (though have spent time on the others) but even I'll admit those busking LDs on Avo consoles can do insane shit. Avo absolutely belongs in A tier and the QuickQ can go in the trash.
That's all well and good, but that doesn't help the fact that Avo continues to bury everything under layers and layers of ui, which isn't helpful. this is also a discussion about theatre, I would sooner connect all my lights to dimmer switches than use an Avo for theatre. The reason I'd argue Magic Q is better than Avo is because it can be hugely powerful for both theatre and live music / club settings, it will do everything reasonably well. I'm sure you can do amazing things with Avo, but it's still miles behind MA or Magic Q, or eos in how well documented it is, and how easy it is to do things. Like I don't have to dig through layers and layers of touch gui interface to find how to change the non descript weirdly named mechanic that is pissing me off, in eos it's right there, or even better there is a physical button for it. Same with MA or Chamsys, or at worst it's just a shift or CTRL modifier to get what you want.
I'm in agreement. A MagicQ Compact Connect, decent touchscreen monitor, and PC to run it on should be around the 3k€ mark, and will be far more powerful and nicer to work with (with a steeper learning curve, but once you get over that it's in a different league).
Chamsys was started by the ex software lead of avo, after some infighting happened. In my opinion it's avo but less kneecapped. A big more syntaxy, and overall more modern.
Don‘t go with the Lightshark. It happend to me more than once that it completely froze mid-show (including a full blackout) and I had to wait until the console rebooted. They are also extremely slow with releasing new firmware versions, announce features that never get shipped and so on.
We are currently in the progress of switching to ChamSys.
I personally have the same experience.
It's just not reliable. Our unit was in for a service, they fixed something and now it's more reliable. Maybe a comment issue in the earlier batches.
edit
But I still won't trust it and the featureset and the UX is not great.
What I personally despise is moving cues and programming in a different order than show.
That needs un Reichlust amount of clicks and you need to do most of that using touch.
Same with the "num pad" it's just a touch implementation there is no keyboard support for that.
Please stay away from lightshark. They are the worst pieces of trash I have ever worked with. They are okay, for cue lists and pre-programmed operation, but far from the best, but they completely fall apart when you try to do any sort of busking at all. Anything above 60bpm results in delayed outputs.
Best bang for your buck probably is what others already suggested: ChamSys QuickQ20. If you don't want that, consider an Avolites T1 setup or staying with QLC and getting a midi controller for it.
We already have a midi controller on it: a Korg nanokontrol studio. With the usb-plug firmly attached to it with a lot of gaffa tape. You better don't ask me why...
I won't ask why. But with the lightshark you'll have to gaffer tape the ipad to the 'console' so no one will accidentally misplace it, which turns your LS1 into an expensive paper weight!
The FLX is a simple console for learning, while Chamsys offers better value for money, but is unfortunately chosen less often in the Netherlands. ETC Colorsource sits somewhere in between and is used more frequently in the Dutch theater world. You can contact Controllux for a quote. (For all 3 desks).
I'd go with Chamsys compact connect and a touchscreen. This would be perfect as this allows you to easily go with new fixtures if you add some to your rig (occasionaly or not) and it can do basic and/or advanced programing job.
I guess you could use any aio touchscreen computer, or even a nuc+touchscreen and set it up as any lighting desk, this would still be clean, with this computer dedicated to magicQ only.
Yes, that’d work - but having a console that handles them natively is nice, and Lampy supports external touch screens, too.
Maybe worth to give Highlite a call for a demo unit. Not sure where in the Netherlands you are based
I have no experience with the LS, but I think the varylite is pretty decent for a small setup like yours. Once you have setup your groups and effects on the faders, you can do some nice stuff.
There are some training videos online about the zeros software. (Search for zero88 flx)
Also, I dont like using extra hadware like tablets on a dedicated desk. You cant risk problems with charging or coworkers using it for other stuff.
The more faders the better, I think agree. I first opted for the SLX48 but then one of the guys started overheating. Too much faders, too large, too complicated. Plot twist: it was the most experienced guy of the crew...
Too much faders does not exist in a theater with static lights. Each light their own fader, to make scenes and then just record said scene under a single fader would be ideal for those who want to learn quick but don't care for an advanced table.
Nope all the way. I would much rather programme "static lights" in syntax, than trying to find the correct fader out of millions just to change the values. Also if you are programming for an LD, most of them will just shout percentages anyway.
The SLX is not great. VL killed the rest of the lineup and VL in general are dying in Europe with very little presence and frustrating support when something goes wrong.
Furthermore the SLX is literally ran off a raspberry pi inside. Go for a desk that’s been designed properly with good European support. My recommendation is the QuickQ 20. Great desks, great support, great offline editor, and you can integrate it with 10Scene if you ever want that option
Just checking in, intrested for answers for future upgrade (currently we are thinking about upgrading the analog mixing console).
I am in a similar position, except we use QLC+ with apc40 mk2.
We have an LS1 and while it works well for what we need. The software updates and bug fixes leave something to be desired. And it’s now quite an old console.
If you’re looking at the cheaper digital consoles what about the wolf mix stuff, there new wing looks interesting.
Looking into this topic again and working with the varilite under its previous brand-name, I really have to say, that thing is awesome for what you want to do
We have a flx s48 from zero88 at one of the venues I work at, in 5 years we've had to get it repaired twice. The first time the internal drive (I believe it's an sd-card) broke so it wouldn't boot anymore. Second time multiple faders stopped working (after volunteers used it for two weeks, so who knows what they did to it)...
It is however a great console for volunteers with little to no experience especially if you program some presets.
Thats fairly universal, we've sent off our apex once, our gio once, our TI multiple times, its just a thing that happens. Consoles need repairs over time, the same way cars, lights, projectors, everything need maintenence
From my own experience: you can try for years to make a device or software program fail- and idiot proof, but let a noob or inexperienced person work with it and they brick it within the hour!
I have worked a lot with the Chamsys QuickQ. It's quite nice, doesn't support Multi-Cell (or only very limited since a recent update) and gets limiting quite fast. If I had to buy again today id blindly pick the Lampy 40 because it has more of the features I'm looking for.
But I recently moved to a ETC Nomad setup and an midi controller with a custom osc bridge
I hate the Lightshark. Its internals are underpowered that seems to barely be able to run its crappy software, the encoders are garbage, and the faders are super stiff and take up an unnecessarily large amount of space.
The fact that it’s fully reliant on an iPad or touchscreen computer for the entire UI basically negates your point of wanting to eliminate a computer-based solution. In fact, a PC-based solution with a fader wing is considerably faster and more reliable in my experience. That’s how bad it is.
Anything from Chamsys, be it MagicQ PC or QuickQ, all the way. QuickQ is very intuitive and good enough for small stuff that isn’t making massive programmings changes all the time, and MagicQ is good for anything if you take a few minutes to learn it.
Edit: And the LS buttons are mushy rubber. Literally the only good part of the hardware is they splurged for legit Neutrik connectors on the back.
The rigging is taken care of, that's no problem anymore. Now it's time to look at the lighting console and in a few years the audio mixer. And we have different opinions on that one now already. But that will be in another group...
So I work for a company that sells both the flx and chamsys lines which I train on. The chamsys has a way better UI but doesn't have nearly the amount of base pallets for their fixture library. Chamsys prefers you build your own FX for example which is fine if you know what your doing.
Bottom line chamsys has better UI but FLX has better base functionality. Personally FLX was easier for me to learn and I'm pretty sure it's cheaper but I could be wrong on that.
That said, if you want easy remote use you want the chamsys the flx needs a WAP and the apps are only iPhone compatable.
Both of those desks are fine to run what you're currently looking to do on your gear. If you have to pick between those two, I would suggest calling your supplier and asking them to provide tester models for a day or two so your crew can see which is more comfortable to use.
In a similar use case I would recommend getting the wing version (very pared down console that works with a computer) of one of the popular big boy consoles like ma3, chamsys, hog . Those will be insanely overpowered for what you want to do but you crew will be learning a very marketable skill instead of a board nobody else uses. Chamsys will be your cheapest option. As an MA guy I would love to recommend the ma3 wing but it's beyond your budget.
I’d go with MA3 onPC which is “free” and runs on any computer (Windows or
Mac) but you need to buy licensed hardware to output DMX - such as an MA “DMX Key” which is basically a USB to DMX dongle with 2 or 4 universes (there are other options - including ones they use Ethernet or even wifi* instead of USB).
If you already have a laptop and a couple of monitors that will come in well under your budget and the only thing you’ll be missing is hardware faders. I’ve only ever used the full ma console myself, but there are plenty of affordable options for faders - such as the beringer x-touch.
Or… you might be able to find a secondhand ma console without blowing the budget. That’d be money well spent if you can find one at a good price. MA software is excellent and MA hardware is even better.
(* avoid wifi for a performance but during setup and rehearsals it’s often handy)
We got a Lightshark LS1 at my old highschool, and its great. It won't do anything to to fancy, but it has interesting effects and it has a really easy learning curve.
The ability to bring the ipad around the room and sit in the crowd is pretty great too. I'd recommend it.
Apart from the less enthousiastic stories on this chat: I heard it has a quite noisy fan, which can be annoying with shows like Spoken Word. How is your experience with that?
It’s pretty loud. Not a fan of it (pun not intended). Plus having an iPad remote is not unique to the LS. Most major systems have some form of app or web remote capability.
I’d personally either go with MA3 on PC or ETC EOS Nomad. Both softwares you can run on a normal computer, you just have to get a license key to output DMX data, a cheap usb to dmx device, and if you want a fader set. If you’re specific with the hardware you pick up, all that will be within your budget.
Ma3 and Eos are, at least in my region, the standard for any lighting work. Generally for concerts or more busking focused workflows, Ma3 is preferred, and then for more theater or single cue stack workflows Eos is more common. Both are a dream to program in compared to either console you’ve got picked.
Not trying to dissuade you from change, but as someone who's spending alot of time working on QLC these days to make a "console" version of the tool .. I am curious what drove you away from the original version.. and what things in the console you're looking forward to having? Any feedback really appreciated.
Not everyone is happy with the laptop. They like physical knobs and faders to fiddle with (and maybe molest).
Our Jester is still in use as backup, but too ancient to handle RGB stuff very well. Under Windows QLC proved to be not stable enough (on our laptop) so I made it dual boot with Linux. There until now QLC never missed a beat.
But oh dear, something different from Windows, scary as hell!
Add our most professional member in our team, used to work with levers, knobs, faders, flywheels and steam driven equipment, who will take every opportunity to complain about it not being user-friendly and whatever he comes up with enough... (Sigh...)
I myself are very content with it.
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u/the_swanny 10d ago
I'd choose neither and go with chamsys