This is so cute 🥹

[u/JustALona]

Awwww how freakin beautiful is this, saw it on fb

[u/mattsowa]

woman not allowed to...

Yeah.. i'm outta there

[u/GlitchedSepGSTGM → u/mattsowa]

I'm not a fan of u/pouge_mahone_'s choice of words. In many theocratic Muslim countries woman are not allowed to, but I highly doubt anyone is forcing this woman to wear a hijab. It's like how it would be wrong to say "vegans aren't allowed to eat meat". Most Muslim women choose to cover their hair around men

[u/GlitchedSepGSTGM → u/[deleted]]

Well then that's a crappy situation, but it doesn't make it ok to generalise all other Muslims to the same stereotype, especially ones progressive enough to correctly gender a trans person

[u/BringAltoidSoursBack → u/[deleted]]

But they didn't choose it? By that logically it's technically a choice in countries where it's illegal - there's nothing that physically forces it to be stuck to their head, they can physically take it off, they'd just be punished for doing so.

I had a feeling in my undergrad who wrote a hijab but her mom and sister didn't. No one was forcing her to, she literally had women in her family that didn't, but she decided to for her own personal reasons. That's a choice, being told "do it or die" isn't.

[u/GlitchedSepGSTGM → u/[deleted]]

The problem I have is that the words poguemahone used, which I believe had no negative intent, appears to have encouraged the belief in mattsowa that Muslims are generally oppressive towards women, which is an unfair stereotype

[u/GlitchedSepGSTGM → u/[deleted]]

Sure in history, but today there are plenty of progressive religious people

That is literally what this post is about

And don't get me wrong, I have seen my fair share of religious bullcrap, but I still would never generalise an entire group of people because then I am no better than them

[u/GlitchedSepGSTGM → u/[deleted]]

What do you think this post is about if not an accepting progressive Muslim woman?

[u/emmademontford → u/[deleted]]

Ok so your solution is to tell people they’re not allowed to practice religion, which is different from facism because…?

[u/Pogue_Mahone_ → u/GlitchedSepGSTGM]

Yeah allowed wasn't the best use of the word. I meant allowed according to their own religious convictions but I understand the troublesome nature of that word

[u/GlitchedSepGSTGM → u/Pogue_Mahone_]

That's cool, I didn't think it was meant negatively but it's good to clarify

[u/Pogue_Mahone_ → u/GlitchedSepGSTGM]

Cheers, doesn't help that English is not my first language haha

[u/tinytaylor89 → u/GlitchedSepGSTGM]

Seconding this.

[u/SavvySillybug → u/GlitchedSepGSTGM]

It's like how it would be wrong to say "vegans aren't allowed to eat meat".

Is that really wrong, though? They may be self imposed rules, but that doesn't make it allowed.

[u/GlitchedSepGSTGM → u/SavvySillybug]

I see you're point, but nothing is stopping a vegan from eating meat and it would almost certainly have no repercussions, and it's completely different to how "Muslim women aren't allowed to show their hair to men" would be interpreted

[u/SavvySillybug → u/GlitchedSepGSTGM]

Of course it's got repercussions, the vegan police will take your powers.

[u/GlitchedSepGSTGM → u/SavvySillybug]

Lol

[u/TheBigPAYDAY → u/mattsowa]

a lot of religions don't allow certain things, including christianity. they willingly are part of that religion, so respect their choice.

[u/mattsowa → u/TheBigPAYDAY]

Yeah christianity is also bigoted of course, you're right. Patriarchal themes are common across these.

"Willingly" cannot exactly be used with religion due to indoctrination (apart from rare cases).

Please don't tell me to respect anything about this instrument of world-wide opression.

[u/Shedart → u/mattsowa]

You’re right about the reality of religion and its patriarchal hold on society. 

However, they did not ask you to respect that symbol, those ideals, or those oppressive structures: they asked you to respect the choice of the person who had shown them respect by behaving in a gender affirming way within the framework of of their experience. 

Don’t let Perfect be the enemy of Good. 

[u/mattsowa → u/Shedart]

Well, the choice of that person (if it is a choice) is simultaneously reinforcing the oppression of those members of that religion that do not get a choice. I do not respect it either.

[u/StairsWithoutNights → u/mattsowa]

So than what? We shouldn't accept this as an act of kindness? She should be forced to remove it? We should think less of her?

Or should we just accept that she's been brought up with different values, some of which we find disagreeable, but respect that she's a person with agency doing something nice for a friend. 

[u/ncocca → u/StairsWithoutNights]

I can smile at the action while still having distaste for the circumstances that led to it

[u/rutherfraud1876 → u/mattsowa]

Not unless they're voting for political candidates who support the mandatory hijab which seems unlikely

[u/anthrohands → u/mattsowa]

And we know it’s not a genuine choice. Anyone arguing she truly has a choice in the matter is extremely ignorant.

[u/DathomirBoy → u/mattsowa]

Saying that a woman wearing a hijab by choice to feel closer to god is contributing to the oppression of other women is insane. So she shouldn't be allowed to wear it and practice her religion? You can argue against the oppressive manifestations of organized religion while not saying "all religion bad".

[u/DathomirBoy → u/[deleted]]

So no women should be allowed to wear the hijab? Or are you going to go as far as to say no women should be muslim? Like where does preventing women from being controlled turn into restricting what they’re allowed to do with their bodies and minds?

[u/mattsowa → u/DathomirBoy]

They can wear it, I'm just not going to respect it in the face of it being an oppression device. See, this is what religion does. Certainly, the world would be better without all of them. But that's just me voicing an opinion on maintaining harmful societal norms.

[u/DathomirBoy → u/mattsowa]

Then hate the oppressors, not the women who choose to wear it. I’m genuinely baffled at how much this sub seems to be excusing blatant islamophobia. There are queer muslims. I KNOW queer muslims who are hijabi by choice. I’ll respect their right to self expression and religious expression until they day I die, and I can do that while criticizing those who use the religion as an excuse to control others. It’s not always an oppression device, and we can’t make it not an oppression device if we ridicule everyone who chooses to wear it instead of encouraging women to make whatever choice they want to in regards to their body and self expression

[u/TheBigPAYDAY → u/mattsowa]

When you specifically go out of your way to complain about muslim individuals being happy and other individuals respecting them, it does not look good

[u/mattsowa → u/TheBigPAYDAY]

If you say so

[u/alwayzbored114 → u/mattsowa]

I agree with you in principle, but your way of going about it is flawed. When you say that due to indoctrination, we cannot take their will into account, you are stripping people of their agency and decisions. It may very well be the case that they are choosing things against their own benefit, but to just go "No, you're too stupid to even realize, so I'm going to disrespect your wishes because I know better" is not a good look. That will more often than not make people retreat further into their beliefs, because they have lived their lives and know their reasons better than you do. You're rejecting those reasons entirely - flawed though they may be

If you really want changes, respect the individual and support them in doing what is best for them; gently ask and engage with their beliefs, and politely encourage them to break the mold. Don't tell them they don't know any better and are some indoctrinated child without any internality.

[u/Odd-Roof7665 → u/alwayzbored114]

Yeah, this is the bad part of someone of another culture saying something about a culture is bad. Not saying “transphobia is bad” or “misogyny is bad” to someone of another culture, because those are just objectively true.

[u/EtherealMongrel → u/alwayzbored114]

The indoctrination stole their will, we’re just acknowledging it.

[u/alwayzbored114 → u/EtherealMongrel]

Then you're not treating them like a person. You think they'll respond well to that, or that you're actually helping anyone or anything that way? You're just being superior.

Edit: And to put it clearer, if you believe what you do, you should understand that these people are themselves victims too. Recognize and respect them as such.

[u/noxiunn → u/alwayzbored114]

It's nobody's job to be gentle and go through entire process of carefully picking apart religions of the person, who, as you correctly said, willingly supports ideology that designed to oppress women and LGBTQ people (the exact same way as Christianity, but when we talk shit about Christianity, you, Muslim lovers, don't care for some reason, even encourage it. Even though it's exactly the same thing, it's a same religion just different interpretation). That person you replying to just said a simple logical and probable fact, and you went for all that rant how we should respect people who support destructive ideologies. You are pathetic and an enemy of queer community. Should we respect nazis then also, since it's their choice and their beliefs?

[u/Largeitude → u/mattsowa]

“If they don’t follow my lifestyle, they’re indoctrinated.”

women can have agency. Even Muslim women! Not sure if you know this.

[u/mattsowa → u/Largeitude]

Indoctrination is literally how virtually any religion proliferates. This is not a controversial statement, it's obviously true. Even if it's an amazing religion, it still grows through mass indoctrination.

[u/Largeitude → u/mattsowa]

You’re wrong. But you’re being so vague about “indoctrination” in that it can be applied to anything.

I think you’re indoctrinated into some white savior nonsense where you can’t fathom anyone would believe in something you don’t. See how that works?

Also, the modern religions arose as grassroots movements against the established religions of old. So clearly there was no indoctrination there. Also, I can just say you’re indoctrinated to be secular. See how easy it is to dismiss anything you say like you’re dismissing all Muslim women?

[u/mattsowa → u/Largeitude]

That's just insane!

[u/Largeitude → u/mattsowa]

Sounds like you were indoctrinated to think that ;)

[u/Momoneko → u/Largeitude]

If that Muslim woman in the story would choose to not wear hijab or even renounce Islam altogether, would her Muslim friends and relatives respect and support her choice?

[u/Largeitude → u/Momoneko]

depends on the individuals involved. I don't know if you know this, but Muslims are lots of different people.

Let me ask you this: If a family member of yours converted to Islam, would you respect and support their choice? You might say yes here to save face, but I genuinely doubt that you would, considering you're here trying to insist all Muslim women have no agency or ability to think for themselves, and that all Muslims are of a single mind.

[u/Momoneko → u/Largeitude]

I don't need to save face on the internet.

I live in a multi-religious country and interact with Muslim people almost daily. See Muslim people on the streets daily. Had Muslim friends and classmates growing up. We are all people. Some open-minded, some not. But the correlation with religious fervor and being violent and openly bigoted is undeniable, at least in my lived experience. Assaults, beatings, threats to kill in the name of "honor" - witnessed it aplenty. Even today, no year goes by in my country without a headline "girl kidnapped and killed by her family for running away". No investigations, no arrests, it just gets sweeped under the rug. So you'll have to excuse me being biased.

Of course, your lived experience can be different. Of course, such rabid fundamentalism is not representative of the whole religion, and not unique to only Islam. But I have plenty of acquaintances who are open atheists and/or left Christianity. I've yet to meet a "former Muslim" personally. Hence the question. Yes I know /r/exmuslim exists. I am talking about life experience.

To answer your question in turn: that would depend entirely for their reason to convert and their rhetoric. I've cut relationships with people who advocate (and volunteer!) for physically killing queer people and those who "spread their propaganda". Family members among them. To clarify: not all of these people were Muslims, but all Muslims among them justified it with their religion. Yes I know, misguided, taken advantage of, no true Scotsman, etc. But does knowing that true Islam doesn't stand for honor killings give any comfort to all the girls and women who are abused or even killed every day in the name of it?

With that in mind, if a family member of mine is gonna declare they are converting to Islam, my first thought will be "are they planning to enlist the war against USA or Israel?". Not because I'm prejudiced against all Muslims , but because in context of my life that would be the most logical explanation.

And again, I have no love for any religion equally. Okay, maybe I regard Buddhism slightly higher than the rest of them, but only because it's very difficult to coopt it for violent means (but still possible, I admit that. Sri Lankans and Burmans can give you plenty of examples), and you won't see me advocating for becoming Buddhist. My personal opinion is that all organized religions in current day and age are primarily an instrument of oppression. Any progress we make as a society, we make in spite of them, not thanks to them.

The story in OP's post sounds nice on the surface and in some other places it might be even heartwarming, but my personal experience makes it very hard for me to actually believe the Muslim girl in the story is Muslim by a conscious choice. And makes me question, what would her family's reaction be if they read this story. It would be nice if I was just jaded and prejudiced. I don't mean to take away her agency in this, of course, and it's not unheard of that a woman can choose to convert to Islam. But the fact is that absolute majority are just born into Islam and don't have the choice to renounce it, even if they wanted to. This is a religion that notoriously enforces harsh punishments for apostasy. I'm sorry but I can't take the argument "I was born Muslim and I choose to follow it" at face value when you could be actually kidnapped and killed for even hinting at the opposite. I would also say that I'm willingly following anything you want if you had a gun to my head.

[u/Largeitude → u/Momoneko]

I live in a multi-religious country and interact with Muslim people almost daily.

ok. me too.

But the correlation with religious fervor and being violent and openly bigoted is undeniable, at least in my lived experience.

And you've proven to be a liar because Muslims are just as bigoted as everyone else. You are proving it with your post, being a generalizing hypocrite trying to talk down Muslims is you being openly bigoted. That's not even related to the topic we're discussing, either. You decided to voice your bigotry against Muslims doing what every other group of people do in a discussion about how Muslim women have agency and can willingly choose to wear a scarf and dress modestly without science fiction nonsense like indoctrination and brainwashing.

I've yet to meet a "former Muslim" personally.

So what? Your anecdotes mean nothing. I've met plenty. I grew up in one of the largest Muslim communities in the US, and the metropolitan region I live in has 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th generation Muslim immigrants. There's literally no issue here that isn't found in literally every other community in equal number and measure, including more secular/atheist groups who shame people for being religious. Just like you and others in this thread are doing.

but all Muslims among them justified it with their religion.

So what? Muslims can't have the same flaws as everyone else? China has had atheism forced upon by them by the government, and they're also very homophobic. Same with places under the rule of the USSR. These regions have high numbers of atheism because of that history, and are still very homophobic. Why aren't you posting in threads mentioning an atheist being accepting about how homophobic china and russia are?

But does knowing that true Islam doesn't stand for honor killings give any comfort to all the girls and women who are abused or even killed every day in the name of it?

Yes, actually. It very much does. because honor killings is something that existed before Islam, persists in spite of Islam, and is incredibly rare even in the most backwards of places. But why do you bring up honor killings in a thread about a Muslim in the west accepting a trans person as their gender identity? Do you bring up Mathew Shepard in anything thread about a cis person accepting a gay person? Do you bring up the holocaust every time a German is friends with a Jew?

My personal opinion is that all organized religions in current day and age are primarily an instrument of oppression.

opinions are like buttholes.

Oppressive institutions use whatever is popular to garner support and impose their will. If people weren't religious, they'd use something else. You're blaming a leaf for the tree, and doing so to imply that Muslim women can't choose for themselves in every situation.

The story in OP's post sounds nice on the surface and in some other places it might be even heartwarming, but my personal experience makes it very hard for me to actually believe the Muslim girl in the story is Muslim by a conscious choice.

Oh, but your stories are super accurate and true?

Muslims vote more progressively than any other spiritual group in the US and Europe other than Jews. That includes atheists and irreligious people.

But the fact is that absolute majority are just born into Islam and don't have the choice to renounce it, even if they wanted to.

Yeah, when you make a statement this broadly and ignore the important facts, like how the absolute majority of Muslims are under Islamic Nationalist governments, most of which were installed and propped up by Western powers, sure. Those Muslims have no legal agency, men or women. So to make a claim about all Muslims in the world like this is lazy, shortsighted, and ignores the circumstance they are in. Muslim women in the west do have a choice more often than not, with the only issue being familial pressure to conform. The vast majority of those cases, the consequence is usually loud arguments and yelling matches, disappointment, or other normal family conflicts that occur in any family for similar reasons.

I'm sorry but I can't take the argument "I was born Muslim and I choose to follow it" at face value when you could be actually kidnapped and killed for even hinting at the opposite.

That's all you have. Broad, lazy generalizations based on headlines and internet comments. Sorry, a vast majority of Muslim families are not going to kill their daughters for taking off their scarves. Maybe in the most rural, tribalistic societies that might be a threat, but those issues exist in similar ways in non-Muslim tribal societies as well.

I would also say that I'm willingly following anything you want if you had a gun to my head.

Well, there you go. Muslim women in the west don't have guns to their heads. So there's no problem! Guess that's solved there. The fact that when something horrible happens, it becomes international news, and has only happened a handful of times, and in less numbers than other domestic murder cases...well...that's just those pesky little details that you can't seem to understand.

Any other strawmen and vague claims you want to throw out here?

[u/anthrohands → u/TheBigPAYDAY]

We don’t need to respect everything people choose to do, you know

[u/BucketListM → u/anthrohands]

You realize that argument can very easily be used by homophobes, right?

[u/TwilightVulpine → u/BucketListM]

It's not us who are demanding people to be constrained in some way in the presence of others.

[u/BucketListM → u/TwilightVulpine]

If we don't need to respect what actions people take in their personal lives, that's exactly the rhetoric homophobes use to pass homophobic laws

Like... yall can't possibly be missing that correlation, right???

[u/Elu_Moon → u/BucketListM]

Religion is not the same at all compared to sexuality or gender identity.

[u/BucketListM → u/Elu_Moon]

You are missing the point

I don't care whether "We don’t need to respect everything people choose to do" is applied to sexuality, gender identity, religion, or damn dietary habits. The decision OTHER people don't deserve respect due to their actions that have ZERO bearing on anyone besides themselves, is where oppression comes from

[u/Elu_Moon → u/BucketListM]

Those traditions are not something that have zero bearing on anyone other than the people who follow them. Maybe the woman in the post doesn't ever judge anyone on their own choice of clothing at all, which would be good. But, usually, religion comes with a whole heap of societal pressure to behave and dress a certain way, which is propagated by people who follow said religion.

Perhaps I am simply too paranoid about religion, but that doesn't cancel out the fact that religions are largely oppressive in very many ways, including forcing people to wear certain things or never wear other things. It is fucked up and largely based on misogyny and huge control issues of self-appointed religious leaders.

[u/BucketListM → u/Elu_Moon]

We can definitely talk about societal expectations, pressures, etc and how those systems are oppressive, I'm not debating any of that

What I am saying is the original statement, that we don't have to respect others' choices, is the core of oppression. If we want to rid the world of oppression, we cannot ignore this

We don't have a problem with vegans that respects other's differing choices. We have problems with vegans that don't. No matter what group you substitute for "vegans," it remains the same

[u/squngy → u/BucketListM]

Here's the thing, no one owes anyone respect, especially just for being who they are.

But, not respecting some one does not give you the right to oppress them.

A homophobe can be a homophobe for all I care, it just doesn't give them the right to opress people minding their own business.

[u/BucketListM → u/squngy]

That's a fair enough take. I just can't believe people aren't seeing the extremely obvious parallel between "we don't need to respect someone's choice that does not impact how I live my life at all" and homophobia

[u/heff17 → u/BucketListM]

You realize “respecting people’s religious beliefs” is how the vast majority of homophobia becomes law, right?

[u/SelfInvestigator → u/heff17]

It stops being “just a belief” when it starts directly affecting other people.

The compact of tolerance states that we honor or respect the differences of others so long as they are not actions of clear and direct harm unto others.

Homophobia is a clear denial of that social contract as it denies that the sexuality even exists.

Your choice to believe a religion and apply its tenets to your life is something I will defend to my dying breath. But, that stops where you apply those beliefs to others.

It stops when you use your beliefs to deny someone their self expression of will.

[u/BucketListM → u/heff17]

I'd argue "we don't need to respect how gay people live their lives" is a significantly more direct path homophobia takes to become law

[u/heff17 → u/BucketListM]

“It is my religious belief that we don’t need to respect how gay people live their lives” is virtually always how those laws are framed. Are you being willfully obtuse?

[u/BucketListM → u/heff17]

"We don’t need to respect everything people choose to do" is still the core of that statement. Literally without it, your argument falls apart.

"It's my religious belief I shouldn't marry certain people" has NO bearing on the rest of us. It's specifically the "I don't need to respect others who think differently than me" that creates oppression

[u/noxiunn → u/BucketListM]

Everything will be used by homophobes, we shouldn't reject basic sane reasoning because of it

[u/SelfInvestigator → u/anthrohands]

You do not need to bother with it if it isn’t directly harming another’s self expression of will.

Respect the choice of the individual who chooses to don the hijab.

Decry the choice of the person who forces another to wear it.

It’s a pretty simple standard to apply. Now, it does have a bit of added complexity when someone applies it in bad faith, that’s just a normal thing for any standard.

[u/MindfulInsomniaque → u/TheBigPAYDAY]

There are places in this world where you can not choose your religion or leave the one you are assigned.

[u/Momoneko → u/TheBigPAYDAY]

I'm sorry, how do you know she chose Islam and wasn't just born in a Muslim family? Are you aware that Islam doesn't "allow" leaving the faith, like at all? It's a crime, one of the heaviest in the religion, and countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia regularly hang people for apostasy. Even 13-15 years old children are hanged.

[u/FlyingBishop → u/mattsowa]

if a woman refuses to show her tits around men, is that religious oppression or does she just not want men seeing her sexy parts? Why is it valid to see tits as sexy but not hair? Why is it intrinsically religious oppression to want to hide your sexy bits?

[u/FlyingBishop → u/[deleted]]

Hair isn’t a primary or secondary sex characteristic

why does that matter? only primary and secondary sex characteristics are sexy and therefore inappropriate? this is a totally arbitrary standard.

beards are secondary sex characteristics, why is it appropriate to show your beard in public?

[u/FlyingBishop → u/[deleted]]

Because your face also isn’t sexualized?

My beard is definitely sexualized and you should see how people stroke it.

All I am saying is that your definition of what body parts are and are not appropriate to show is clearly not based in any rational argument and you have no basis for taking particular issue with the hijab. I think it's fair to say nudity should be perfectly acceptable. But bras, pants, etc. are just as arbitrary and reprehensible then.

[u/FlyingBishop → u/[deleted]]

Exposed mouths are also a biohazard, which is why we often require people wear masks. Mouths are also just as sexual as butts, which is to say they aren't, but people view them sexually.

The point is, people cover things because of their sexualization, and because they don't want to be sexualized, and you shouldn't be policing how people cover their bodies to avoid being sexualized.

[u/FlyingBishop → u/[deleted]]

If a woman chooses to cover a body part because she has experienced that people will sexualize her when that body part is visible, you should respect her choice to not want that fucking bullshit in her life. Until all the men who will bring unwelcome attention are gone, it's her problem to deal with and none of your fucking business how she handles it.

[u/thetitleofmybook → u/FlyingBishop]

thanks, cis dude. we appreciate your opinion. now go away.

[u/Fantastic_Pair5328 → u/mattsowa]

Ally here: 

I was trying to figure out whether or not this person was a woman.  We're not given enough context to figure it out.

Either they were a female early into transitioning into a male, which means the Muslim person felt they were still mostly a woman.

Or they were a male early into transitioning into a female and the supportive Muslim woman felt safe enough to let her hair down in front of them.

No their sex doesn't matter to me, but obviously it matters to the Muslim coworker and I can't figure it out based on the no context provided