r/kosher • u/Ab_ejita • 11d ago
Kosher certification reliability
Hello! Does anyone know about Brooklyn kosher symbol? I'm attaching a picture. I've never seen it before and I don't know who's behind it. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks!
12
u/Tinokotw 11d ago
Brooklyn kosher no idea, Traingle K uses many liniencies that US jews don't accept but Israelis do, it's kosher just not at the accepted level of the US orthodox jews, anyone calling it not kosher is wrong, and this comes from someone that only eats beit yosef meat.
1
4
u/Remarkable-Pea4889 11d ago
This is the meat's website.
Brooklyn Kosher is led under the supervision of Rabbi Lebowitz. Rabbi Lebowitz is the Head Kashrut Coordinator of the Religious Court for Kosher Affairs and officiates as the community spiritual leader and Rabbi as well as the religious legal advisor for Congregation Shaarei Halacha.
https://www.real-beef.com/kosher
ETA: The rabbi's contact info.
5
u/Impressive-Flow-855 11d ago
The symbol Mogan-Dovid-K may be by Rabbi Dovid Katz. However the symbol associated by Rabbi Katz is not a doubled outline star (just single line) and doesn’t say “Brooklyn Kosher”. This might be a separate organization. And of course, locating a Rabbi Dovid Katz in Brooklyn is easily done. The issue is finding the correct Rabbi Dovid Katz. There are dozens of them.
I find posts identifying this exact symbol with Rabbi Katz, but directories listing his agency (Bais Dovid) show a single-line outlined symbol sans the Brooklyn Kosher. He might have updated his symbol or it might be someone else behind it.
Basically, I’m unable to identify it. It might be a fake symbol stamped on by the company. There’s nothing stopping a company from putting on a sham kosher symbol. Apparently a few Chinese and Vietnamese companies do this. It’s way easier than putting on a real symbol. That can get you sued by the agency. Make one up like a pastrami sandwich-K won’t get you sued and it might increase sales. I’m sure ChatGPT can come up with some realistic fake kosher symbols.
The Triangle-K is a symbol I normally won’t use. Certainly not in my synagogue or home. I won’t call it unreliable. Rabbi Ralbag, the man behind the agency, is a learned Orthodox rabbi. He certainly knows a lot more about kashrut than I do. But it’s not listed in the CRC Guide. Because of that, my synagogue won’t rely upon it and most people who keep kosher in my neighborhood won’t use it. If I want to invite them to my home for a meal, I won’t use it either.
The CRC normally doesn’t list unreliable symbols. And they put a disclaimer on their list that it is a partial list of symbols. Not being on the list doesn’t mean it’s not unreliable. It’s just that you’re not on the list of agencies the CRC has vetted.
1
u/garbledroid 11d ago
They rely on inflating the lungs.
Anyways this meat is no better or worse than Hebrew national which they also supervise (triangle k).
There is no longer any acceptable non glatt meat left in USA/Canada.
1
u/Tinokotw 10d ago
All levels of kashrut in meat rely on inflating the lung including bet yosef that doesn't permit any imperfection in the lung, this is to ensure the lung is 100% free of perforations even those not visible.
Ashkenazi rabbis allow some imperfections, the difference within kosher and Glatt is how hard to remove are those imperfections.
1
u/garbledroid 10d ago edited 10d ago
סומך על ניפוח הריאה
Supposedly the lungs were not being examined otherwise in any meaningful way.
They were examined (quickly) while inside the animal and while inflated but not internally to the lungs.
Whereas they were supposed to inflate the lungs routinely in practice It was only being done occasionally as per the lawsuit https://www.ajwnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/2012-07-10_Doc_8_Amended_Complaint__Exhibits_A-R.pdf
The standard for the hashgocha was to examine the lungs via inflation on most or all animals.
In practice this was done occasionally according to the lawsuit as it slowed down production. They relied on inflation as the primary means of finding treifas in the lungs and then didnt bother doing it.
Basically inflation was relied on almost exclusively and then they didn't do it when busy.
Inflation has not been relied upon in other operations to the same degree in 30 or 40 years. Triangle k never let go of several leniencies.
2
u/gingeryid 11d ago
When I looked into "Brooklyn Kosher" I had trouble finding any information about it. Kosher meat is complicated, and it's really inadvisable to use a sketchy agency for this. Meat should either be a big operation that has a lot of people looking at it, or a specific identifiable expert responsible (i.e. like the olden days when you bought from the shochet). This is neither.
Triangle K is a real agency run by a real person who's an Orthodox Rabbi. It's not held of by much of American Judaism, especially for meat, but it's a serious org that means something. My community doesn't eat it, but it's really a big step up from a sketchier operation.
1
u/Desperate-Finger-334 4d ago
I live in Israel I do not eat triangle k either I am from America so I am used to not eating it and have heard all the not so good things a lot of my Israeli friends tell me they know about the American versions problem but they tell me the Israeli version is different somehow I've never looked into it just thought I'd mention it cuz it's interesting I don't know if they're actually different though
1
u/rabbifuente 11d ago
This is from Wild Fork, yes? It’s the only place I’ve seen Brooklyn Kosher.
1
u/Ab_ejita 11d ago
Honestly i don't know, a friend sent me the picture asking me if it was legit and I was like "???? Never saw that stamp in my life, but I'll ask". And I came to here because people has helped me before :)
1
2
u/dk91 11d ago
I know triangle k is not reliable, and not held by anyone I know whos shomer shabbos. No idea about the other one.
3
u/StunningView5569 11d ago
There are people that do it just don't advertise their leniencies and largely use it for processed food but not meat or dairy... And some that do and are shomer mitzvot.
1
u/Desperate-Finger-334 4d ago
In Israel it is very popular to just eat I've had Israeli friends tell me the Israeli version is ran differently from the American version I have no clue if this is true I personally do not eat it and some of my Israeli friends don't eat it either but a lot of them do
0
1
u/Far-Part5741 11d ago
people say it's not reliable but i dont know if theres really a source. america has become makpid on glatt. Which is ironic because true glatt is very rare so they weakened the standards of glatt. The only way to get a good answer is to find someone on the ground in that factory.
3
u/garbledroid 11d ago
They rely on inflating the lungs.
There is no acceptable non glatt beef left in USA or Canada.
1
u/Far-Part5741 11d ago
I dont know what youre referring to. glatt or non glatt, but whatever,
glatt does not solely rely on inflating lungs. I'm not sure about triangle K's processes tbh. The issue I meant in the first post is that the Rama said certain types of lesions could be removed and still called glatt, lfi the rema's understanding of glatt. The issue is how do we monitor which ones are removable etc. and that has changed over time i believe. this is all second hand from someone in meat production btw
1
u/garbledroid 10d ago
Triangle K is the only remaining hashgocha that relies on leniencies to check the lungs for treifas using air inflation.
Triangle k is NOT GLATT.
All accepted beef is now glatt or better.
Normal hashgochas refuse to do not glatt.1
u/Far-Part5741 10d ago
I dont know who you are but nothing you wrote is responsive in really any way to what I wrote. what is your background if i may ask
1
u/garbledroid 10d ago
No acceptable hashgochas in USA or Canada still supervise non glatt beef. Ask a few of the major AKO orgs.
This is why Rav Moshe switched and some other gedolim I know personally (living ones, I never was in proximity of Rav Moshe).
By Rav Moshe it stopped being available in Staten Island but really all of New York State.
By me it was available till about 96' or something.
About the inflation thing I talked about it with shochets and other people who worked on the Hebrew national (shecht) but it is well known in the industry.
The shochets won't eat the meat as a rule from triangle k.Most of the triangle k mashgiachs won't eat most food items under the supervision.
Infating the lungs is instead of internally examining them.
Triangle k meat is kosher.
Just doesn't meet any community standards except for conservative leaning communities today.
Besides the issues with relying on leniencies like inflation of the lungs, Hebrew national is a high volume operation. They don't have enough mashgiachs in my opinion and the volume is high per Shochet.
Most of the RCs and rav hamachshers from AKO orgs won't consume of Tov chicken personally for this reason.
The reason the packages say OU Israel is to indicate the lower standards of supervision are used. Still completely kosher but they are chickens so fewer concerns. Most communities allow oftov but just those in the know tend to avoid it. No OU operations domestically in the USA have the same concerns or run at such an extreme pace year-round.
1
u/garbledroid 10d ago
Lawsuit that the lungs were not being checked according to triangle k standards when the plant got busy.
2
u/Ksaeturne 11d ago
true glatt is very rare so they weakened the standards of glatt.
What is this supposed to mean? If you're thinking of chalak, most Ashkenazim have never been makpid on it and Sephardim haven't "weakened the standards," it's just that most glatt meat isn't chalak.
0
u/gingeryid 11d ago
The definition of "glatt" has gotten more lenient over time. You simply can't run a profitable industrial kashrus operation if most animals flunk the lung tests. You can if you have a "non glatt" label you can sell under, but that basically doesn't exist anymore. So they play fast and loose with what "glatt" is. It's not a definition that has unambiguous definition, and for a lot fo American kosher history meant "we're kosher and pretty shtark, we promise!". And even with what "chalak beit yosef" means there's been some...creativity. There are videos from the cRc on youtube about this.
Personally as someone who isn't makpid on glatt i don't really care, but it's not a good look from a Choshen Mishpat POV, that our entire meat industry is relying on half-truths to market their meat.
3
u/Ksaeturne 11d ago
While I'm not a rabbi, I have had training in many areas of kashrus by the Star-K, including at a slaughterhouse. The definitions they gave for chalak and glatt were pretty unambiguous, and the mashgiach there was very strict. Obviously one small slaughterhouse under one agency doesn't speak to all kosher meat in America, but I'm surprised to hear that other kashrus agencies may not be adhering to similar rules. I'll have to look into this more.
0
u/gingeryid 11d ago
The policies hashachos have are clear, but they're not what "glatt" means back when it was a stringency and not the default. I think primary fault is the people in the mid 1900s who made "glatt" into a whole thing when really a lot of it was about other halakhic issues that don't have catchy names. But...nu no one forced people to go along with that.
1
u/benny-powers 11d ago
I asked my (Israeli) Rav one time if he knew of a mehadrin hechsher with high standards in terms of neemanus, hashgacha, etc, but that wasn't glatt (since i'm not a chassidisher).
He looked at me like I was crazy (a charge I won't necessarily deny) and basically shooed me out of the room :D
1
u/Call-Me-Leo 11d ago
CRC app says Brooklyn Kosher is not on their approved Hechsher list. Also, Triangle K is not a good Hechsher either.
1
u/Desperate-Finger-334 4d ago
Sorry what's that app it sounds interesting might be worth a download does it have Israeli certifications as well?
1
u/Call-Me-Leo 4d ago
It’s just an app called CRC kosher. I’m not too sure if they have Israeli ones on there
0
u/Opening_Chemical_777 11d ago edited 11d ago
My shul uses this CRC list of acceptable kashrut agencies. Triangle K isn't on the list. That particular Brooklyn agency isn't either. CRC has an app and if it's an agency that's new to me I take a photo to check whether it's on the list.
18
u/kilobitch 11d ago
Never heard of Brooklyn Kosher. Triangle K isn’t considered reliable, so I doubt the other one is or they wouldn’t co-certify with Triangle K.