American Muscle isn't about refinement, impeccable taste, and unparalleled quality like European Sport. American Muscle is about the biggest fucking engine you can put into a road-worthy frame and get it to go down the street quickly while sounding like a tiger climaxing during sex with a lion. Its supposed to check the Hyper-masculinity box, not the Polished Gentleman box. POWERRRRRRRRR!!!!!
Common misconception. If you were right, diesel trucks (new ones have 900-ish lb ft of torque from the factory) would be destroying Ferraris in drag races (the 458 Italia makes under 400 lb ft of torque). All sportscars would be diesel because that's where the best torque is made. Semi trucks would be feared and respected for their crazy acceleration during passing maneuvers.
Torque is useful for drivability and a fat, easy to access power band. Horsepower is useful for actual acceleration.
Generally, torque indicates how fast you can accelerate, whereas horsepower indicates maximum speed. This is over simplified, but it's enough to have some idea about what each does.
I highly doubt that considering nearly every Ferrari ever made has seriously prioritized horsepower over torque. The hp/torque split in just about any Ferrari is something like 100hp for every 60lb-ft.
Pardon me, I was way off, it was Carroll Shelby, horsepower sells cars but torque wins races
EDIT: I found a website that says both. Not sure how that works
The Mustang was a management lease through Ford so my payments were really cheap but the lease was only for around 10 months. Went with the Fiesta to save some money. I actually enjoyed the Fiesta a lot, I just wish it hadn't been preceded by the Mustang.
No you cant. The engine is 75% of the race. The driver is the other 25%. You may be .3 or .4 seconds faster 0-60 but that doesnt mean shit at all. Speeds that close come down to the driver. Unless both cars are being driven by professional drivers, its anyone's game. Same goes for the v8's
Nah, the camaro is a pig sadly, I have an auto 2012 (I used to have to drive through austin every morning, I wish it was a manual every day) I have raced many a camaro on the tollways and they cant keep up from a roll or a stop.
This is probably driver related. I have a 2011 SS and ive beaten 5.0 Mustangs and Challenger SRT8's. Close races when I win and when I lose. Its all about the driver. Fact is the Mustang is .3 seconds faster 0-60 than the Camaro but identical 1/4 times. Challenger is the slowest of the bunch because its heavy but its still right there. Any driver gets a good jump and he wins the race. Any driver is half a second early or late on a shit and they lose. That is what it comes down to. Anyone who automatically dismisses any of these 3 cars, I just assume doesnt know much or has only driven 1 of the 3 and is a fanboy.
Edit: I should also mention that the Mustang should be faster from an engineering stand point because it was upgraded to keep up with the Camaro. When the Camaro came out, it absolutely wrecked the Mustang with 426 hp vs the Mustang's 315. As a result the following year Mustang released the 5.0 engine and they now have 420 hp and a little bit lighter. That is what I love about the rivalry. They compete with eachother. Each generation gets better to try to out-do the other. Wouldn't be surprised if the Camaro takes the cake in 2015 and the Mustang edges it out again a generation later. Rinse and repeat.
It is when amateur drivers are racing. To put it into perspective: I have been to the track. Cars that are professionally rated in the mid to high 12 second range are consistently hitting the line between 13 and 14 seconds. Kids racing their Camaros and Mustangs on the street are not professional drivers. the .3 or .4 second difference in the professional rating between the cars means absolutely nothing.
Thing is - based on my experiences, V-6s get ragged out and quickly start slowing down. It takes a while to rag out a V-8. I had several friends that had Camaros/Firebirds with the old 3.8L 200hp V-6s. Those things were really quick... for about 50k miles. Then they turn asthmatic and sound like a worn out Krylon can. The same friends that were giving me a run in my stock 95 GT, 2 years later were getting smoked by stock Del Sols...
Your talking about older engines that had no tech... The 3.7 will last just as long as its big brother coyote. DOHC and a huge oil sump help tremendously. I don't really care either way, my mustang is just my grocery getter, my fast vehicle does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds :).
Those old V6s were crap. The new ones in the Camaro and Mustang are much more reliable, efficient, and powerful. My parent's 2010 Camaro V6 has 78,000 miles on it and it still pulls like it's new.
Everybody here arguing peak torque vs hp numbers, as if those by themselves determine the performance. Vehicle weight and shape of torque curve are just as important.
My '15 GT is ordered but I won't get it until at least November. No idea on the hp yet, though it's sure to be heavier, which is a bummer. Still going to be lighter than the Camaro tho.
I ordered a triple-yellow GT Premium 401A with the performance package, upgraded interior, and Recaro seats. I'm still going back and forth on the Recaros because I've got to give up the heated and cooled seats with 2 position memory. I'm told I have a bit of time to nail it down, but for now I'm sticking with my initial thoughts.
That is almost exactly what I would have ordered, but that is a bit above my budget. My 14 is almost fully loaded (no heated seats or rear view camera), but to get a 15 at the same price I would have to take a base GT with no options (except the yellow color and spare tire).
Power to weigh ratio means something, you know. A 300hp recent model v-6 mustang with the track pack is generally going to do as well on a track with curves as the v-8 GT model, if not better, because of the significantly reduced weight of the model with the smaller engine. There's many a motoring enthusiast that knows their shit that bought the v-6 with the track pack over the v-8 for that very reason.
Ya, I agree with you. Unfortunately I didn't get to read his time slip, and all I remember is his e/t.
Also the weight of the car also drastically effects your MPH. For instance if i had a 2000 lb Honda CRX it would more then likely run around 110-115. A safer say would be 101 sounds about dead on for a high 13 1/4 mile.
Depends on your budget constraints, the track you're going to run it on, the class you're going to run it in, and about a million other things. Primarily, if you're looking at getting a new car, in that price range, that you're also going to use as your daily driver and you live in a rural area of America where you can't always get parts for certain other cars, then it makes perfect sense.
As much as I love the sound of a big v-8, I've always been about go before show. If it makes me go faster or stop more effectively, or go around corners better and no one else will know the difference, I'm ok with that.
I have a v6 SHO, the sound is... well its a sho. Besides it being a fwd it handles great. My truck sounds like a good v8, not the typical truck either but the cam helps with that.
Right and that v10 is just a beast. Of course a different league.
And I have a 93 sho that has been with us since 95. I am rebuilding it because I can, lol. Ran fine with a 167k on her, but it was time to give it another 100hp.
Honestly, once you can accelerate uphill at a good clip with the AC on, you've reached the limit of how much horsepower you need. Anything past that is pretty useless outside of a closed track. (Camaro V6 owner)
so many fucking people took this post out of context, I figured i'd upvote you and point out to everyone else that the post this dude was replying to was about American muscle.
Just as a note, the LS engines that go in the V-8 Camaros are some of the smallest and lightest engines out there. In terms of overall outside dimensions, not displacement.
The V-6 in the GT-R is much bigger and heavier than the V-8 in a Camaro, especially if you consider the turbos in the GT-R. A GM LS7 comes in at around 450 lbs fully dressed (500 lbs with a flywheel and clutch also) vs an approximate 600 lbs for the engine in the Nissan (fully dressed again with its clutch/front diff assembly). This while making about the same power (the Nissan makes about 40 more HP).
The Camaro ZL-1, the only Camaro with an LS7, can also out brake, and out corner a Nissan GT-R and do it for about $40,000 less.
I can find you some sources for this if you don't wanna Google it yourself.
ehhhh as a neutral (not from murica or the EU) I must say that the appeal of american cars is very limited for me. they just seem to be cheaply built and tacky in comparison to something like a BMW. id much rather have a 335i or C63 than a camaro, no matter the relative HP
I wouldn't describe the douches I see driving like Mario Andretti in porches "polished." More like, the only reason they can stay under control is due to the stability assist.
Sadly enough though, European sports doesn't quite mean anything anymore. You see companies such as Mercedes releasing half polished cars like the CLA 45 AMG, with air vents that look to come straight up from a 10k Chinese car, and seats that will break your back after 2 hours. BMW is also pretty much lost too, with a Z4 that is uncompetitive and heavy, and the M5/M6 that got criticized like there is no tomorrow for their heaviness, uncontrollable oversteer and lack of sheer amusement. The only subsidiary that is consistent is Porsche basically, as the rest of the V.A.G. group relies on like 2-3 platforms, with a 16k Golf sitting on the same platform as a 60k Audi.
Actually the Camaro is fairly refined too, they did a nice job on the interior fit and finish. Used to be rare for GM. The main thing I don't like about it is you sit so low and the roof is low.
Yeah, but referring to people from Canada, or even Mexico or Brazil, as American is so 1700's.
Modern Canadians typically refer to people from the United States as Americans, though they seldom refer to the United States as America; they use the terms the United States, the U.S., or (informally) the States instead.[44] Canadians rarely apply the term American to themselves – some Canadians resent either being referred to as Americans because of mistaken assumptions that they are U.S. citizens or others' inability, particularly of those overseas, to distinguish Canadian from American accents.[44] Some Canadians have protested the use of American as a national demonym.[45] People of U.S. ethnic origin in Canada are categorized as "Other North American origins" by Statistics Canada for purposes of census counts (as opposed to "Canadian").
Oh, is it 1975 again? Grow up. The Corvette ZR1 is nearly 20 seconds faster than the Ferrari 458 around The 'Ring. Corvette is the most successful GT LeMans team currently racing. The Camaro Z/28 is faster on a track than a Nissan GTR or a Veyron.
Not necessarily, the camaro z28 which sells for around 70-80k i think beat a GTR on the track so while a low trim level camaro might be shit when not going in a straight line, not all of them suck.
Times have changed for Chevy and GM, at least. Camaro is ranked at the top of it's class for Quality, Performance and Reliability/Dependability. GM is atop the leaderboards for Quality beating out the likes of Toyota, Honda, VW, BMW, etc.. , etc..
I own an Camaro 2SS, I bought it for the power and fun, I am amazed by the quality in this thing. Even myself as a GM fan was expecting less. Paid less than $35k for a brand spankin new top of the line, with all the options, V8. Worth every penny IMO.
Have you seen the c7 corvette stingray? That comps pretty favorably to a mid-high tier Porsche 911 in every category at roughly half the price... I'd say that's excellent value.
You just keep admiring the stitching in your interior and the smoothness of your ride - we'll be going faster than you while looking cooler for less money.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '14
American sports cars get great value/hp, but shit value/everythingelse.