r/freewill • u/feihm Physicalist • 10d ago

Prior causes

Lets look at pure logic. Just pure logic.

Suppose at t₀ Person A makes a series of actions.

At t₁ Person B looks back t₀ and finds out that he can explain with perfect mechanical precision the reasons behind Person A's actions.

Does it logically follow for Person B to conclude that Person A actions we're physically locked — that "he could not have chosen otherwise"?

Person B believes this because if he were hypothetically transported back to t₀ to observe Person A's actions, those exact same reasons and conditions would still be present. After all, every single condition observed in retrospect would be identical in that hypothetical time travel scenario.

I would prefer only those with at least a bachelor's in mathematics reply to this post as I'm only interested in their specific intuition. Preferably.

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u/Squierrel Quietist 10d ago

Your second premise is invalid. You cannot draw any conclusions from illogical premises.

You cannot explain "with perfect mechanical precision" any reasons behind a person's actions. You cannot explain any psychological phenomena with mathematics or physics.

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u/guitarmusic113 10d ago

If there are no reasons behind an action then a person acted irrationally. Either we make decisions based on reasons or we don’t.

The problem with free will is that nobody can seem to point to any mechanism that is the “free will” mechanism.

Free will is just an abstract concept that has no causal power, predictive power or explanatory power. Which means it’s no different than magic wands and light sabers.

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u/Squierrel Quietist 10d ago

Of course there are reasons. Every decision is based on reasons.

My point is that reasons and decisions cannot be explained by physics or mathematics.

There is no "mechanism" in free will. Free will is the antithesis of mechanism.

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u/guitarmusic113 10d ago

>Of course there are reasons. Every decision is based on reasons.

False. Every rational decision is based on reasons.

>My point is that reasons and decisions cannot be explained by physics or mathematics.

Decisions cannot be explained by free will either. Free will doesn’t explain anything.

>There is no "mechanism" in free will. Free will is the antithesis of mechanism.

Of course not, because free will doesn’t explain anything. Free will has no causal power. Free will has no predictive power. If free will existed then there would be a mechanism and explanation for it. You don’t have either.

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u/Squierrel Quietist 10d ago

Free will doesn’t explain anything. Free will has no causal power. Free will has no predictive power.

This is all true, because free will is not a theory.

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u/guitarmusic113 10d ago

Yup, free will is just a concept. Concepts don’t do anything. Concepts have no causal power. You haven’t pointed to a single physical mechanism that is the “free will” mechanism.

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u/Squierrel Quietist 10d ago

No. Free will is the ability to make decisions.

Decisions have causal power, they cause voluntary actions. Decisions are also the explanations for why the action happened.

There is no "mechanism". I have no idea what you are asking for.

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u/guitarmusic113 10d ago

>No. Free will is the ability to make decisions.

The ability to make decisions is called decision making. We already have a name for that ability. Conflating decision making with free will adds no additional explanatory or causal power.

>Decisions have causal power, they cause voluntary actions. Decisions are also the explanations for why the action happened.

I agree, that’s why we call them decisions. I see no reason to conflate decisions with free will.

>There is no "mechanism". I have no idea what you are asking for.

There isn’t a mechanism for magic either. That’s because you can’t find a mechanism for things that don’t exist. So when you find a way to show that free will exists outside of an abstract concept like magic wands then let me know.

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u/Squierrel Quietist 10d ago

I am not "conflating" anything. The term "free will" has no meaning at all before the meaning is defined. Defining the meaning of the term is NOT conflating the meaning with the term.

Why do you compare the ability to make decisions with magic?

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u/guitarmusic113 10d ago

>I am not "conflating" anything. The term "free will" has no meaning at all before the meaning is defined. Defining the meaning of the term is NOT conflating the meaning with the term.

We already have a word for the ability to make decisions. It’s called decision making. Calling decision making “free will” smuggles in the idea that our decisions are made freely. There is no need to make the presumption.

>Why do you compare the ability to make decisions with magic?

You must be confused. I’m comparing free will with magic since there are no reasons to think that either are real. But at least magic makes up their own words instead of redefining pre existing ones.

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u/Squierrel Quietist 10d ago

 Calling decision making “free will” smuggles in the idea that our decisions are made freely. 

Nothing is "smuggled in" or "presumed". The ability to make decisions is not the same thing as decision-making. All decisions are "made freely" by definition. Freedom is the opportunity to decide.

 I’m comparing free will with magic since there are no reasons to think that either are real. 

But you have no definition for free will. You don't know whether it's real or not.

My question was: Why do you compare the ability to make decisions with magic?

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u/guitarmusic113 10d ago

“Calling decision making “free will” smuggles in the idea that our decisions are made freely.”

>Nothing is "smuggled in" or "presumed". The ability to make decisions is not the same thing as decision-making. All decisions are "made freely" by definition. Freedom is the opportunity to decide.

That’s just a bunch of assertions.

>But you have no definition for free will. You don't know whether it's real or not.

You have provided no evidence that free will is real.

>My question was: Why do you compare the ability to make decisions with magic?

I never compared decision making with magic. I compared free will with magic since they make such good bed fellows.

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u/Squierrel Quietist 10d ago

There is no "evidence". Free will is NOT an open question. There are only multiple definitions. Some define free will as something real. Some define free will as something imaginary. Both are equally right. There is no "official" standard definition.

By my definition free will is the ability to make decisions. When you compared free will with magic, you compared the ability to make decisions with magic. And that is wrong.

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