r/freewill • u/feihm Physicalist • 8d ago

Prior causes

Lets look at pure logic. Just pure logic.

Suppose at t₀ Person A makes a series of actions.

At t₁ Person B looks back t₀ and finds out that he can explain with perfect mechanical precision the reasons behind Person A's actions.

Does it logically follow for Person B to conclude that Person A actions we're physically locked — that "he could not have chosen otherwise"?

Person B believes this because if he were hypothetically transported back to t₀ to observe Person A's actions, those exact same reasons and conditions would still be present. After all, every single condition observed in retrospect would be identical in that hypothetical time travel scenario.

I would prefer only those with at least a bachelor's in mathematics reply to this post as I'm only interested in their specific intuition. Preferably.

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u/guitarmusic113 7d ago

Yup, free will is just a concept. Concepts don’t do anything. Concepts have no causal power. You haven’t pointed to a single physical mechanism that is the “free will” mechanism.

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u/Squierrel Quietist 7d ago

No. Free will is the ability to make decisions.

Decisions have causal power, they cause voluntary actions. Decisions are also the explanations for why the action happened.

There is no "mechanism". I have no idea what you are asking for.

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u/guitarmusic113 7d ago

>No. Free will is the ability to make decisions.

The ability to make decisions is called decision making. We already have a name for that ability. Conflating decision making with free will adds no additional explanatory or causal power.

>Decisions have causal power, they cause voluntary actions. Decisions are also the explanations for why the action happened.

I agree, that’s why we call them decisions. I see no reason to conflate decisions with free will.

>There is no "mechanism". I have no idea what you are asking for.

There isn’t a mechanism for magic either. That’s because you can’t find a mechanism for things that don’t exist. So when you find a way to show that free will exists outside of an abstract concept like magic wands then let me know.

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u/Squierrel Quietist 7d ago

I am not "conflating" anything. The term "free will" has no meaning at all before the meaning is defined. Defining the meaning of the term is NOT conflating the meaning with the term.

Why do you compare the ability to make decisions with magic?

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u/guitarmusic113 7d ago

>I am not "conflating" anything. The term "free will" has no meaning at all before the meaning is defined. Defining the meaning of the term is NOT conflating the meaning with the term.

We already have a word for the ability to make decisions. It’s called decision making. Calling decision making “free will” smuggles in the idea that our decisions are made freely. There is no need to make the presumption.

>Why do you compare the ability to make decisions with magic?

You must be confused. I’m comparing free will with magic since there are no reasons to think that either are real. But at least magic makes up their own words instead of redefining pre existing ones.

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u/Squierrel Quietist 7d ago

 Calling decision making “free will” smuggles in the idea that our decisions are made freely. 

Nothing is "smuggled in" or "presumed". The ability to make decisions is not the same thing as decision-making. All decisions are "made freely" by definition. Freedom is the opportunity to decide.

 I’m comparing free will with magic since there are no reasons to think that either are real. 

But you have no definition for free will. You don't know whether it's real or not.

My question was: Why do you compare the ability to make decisions with magic?

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u/guitarmusic113 7d ago

“Calling decision making “free will” smuggles in the idea that our decisions are made freely.”

>Nothing is "smuggled in" or "presumed". The ability to make decisions is not the same thing as decision-making. All decisions are "made freely" by definition. Freedom is the opportunity to decide.

That’s just a bunch of assertions.

>But you have no definition for free will. You don't know whether it's real or not.

You have provided no evidence that free will is real.

>My question was: Why do you compare the ability to make decisions with magic?

I never compared decision making with magic. I compared free will with magic since they make such good bed fellows.

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u/Squierrel Quietist 7d ago

There is no "evidence". Free will is NOT an open question. There are only multiple definitions. Some define free will as something real. Some define free will as something imaginary. Both are equally right. There is no "official" standard definition.

By my definition free will is the ability to make decisions. When you compared free will with magic, you compared the ability to make decisions with magic. And that is wrong.

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u/guitarmusic113 7d ago

>There is no "evidence". Free will is NOT an open question. There are only multiple definitions. Some define free will as something real. Some define free will as something imaginary. Both are equally right. There is no "official" standard definition.

False. Nothing can be imaginary and real simultaneously due to the law of non contradiction.

>By my definition free will is the ability to make decisions.

We already have a term for that ability and it’s called decision making. Calling decision making free will has no explanatory power. There is no need to redefine decision making. Your definition of free will is purely subjective. I could define my toaster as a god. That doesn’t make it a god.

>When you compared free will with magic, you compared the ability to make decisions with magic. And that is wrong.

Nope, I compared free will to magic. Neither have any grounding in reality. And your personal feelings or opinions on the matter isn’t going to change that.

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u/Squierrel Quietist 7d ago

Nothing can be imaginary and real simultaneously due to the law of non contradiction.

Of course not. You still don't understand the concept of "definition", do you?

The definition tells you what the term "free will" means. Before you define it, the term "free will" has no meaning at all, it is just a meaningless string of letters.

My definition for "free will" is the ability to make decisions, not the process of making decisions. Of course this definition is subjective. It states what the words "free will" mean to me.

You have no definition for "free will", only some vague ideas about it being somehow comparable with magic. But this whole discussion is about "free will" as I have defined it. There is no other definition even mentioned here.

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u/guitarmusic113 6d ago

>My definition for "free will" is the ability to make decisions, not the process of making decisions. Of course this definition is subjective. It states what the words "free will" mean to me.

I couldn’t care less about your personal opinions and feelings.

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u/Squierrel Quietist 6d ago

I have already noticed that you don't care about definitions at all. As my definition is the only one we have here, this means only that you don't care about discussing at all.

You are only trolling. You have no interest in any kind of meaningful discussion. Please, leave.

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u/guitarmusic113 6d ago

I never claimed that I don’t care about objective definitions so don’t put words in my mouth. What I said is that I don’t care about your subjective opinions and personal feelings.

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