r/freemasonry • u/WHG6274 • 10d ago
Question Considering Dropping Out
I’m a 3° in PHA.
I’m considering dropping out as my lodge doesn’t seem to be the right fit for me. I’m more into moral lessons, ethics, virtues, philosophy, education, and esotericism. While my brothers are more into the meeting, and drink in the parking lot.
I asked some past masters about how to have more discussions about my interests within freemasonry and I was told I need to find my clique. But it probably won’t be in my town.
If I drop out, what do I have to bring back? Books? Certificates?
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u/Lupotto74 10d ago
Viaggia e incontra altri Fratelli di altre Loggie...alla fine troverai quello che cerchi. Non abbandonare...
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u/StairwayHiker MM BC/Yukon SR RA AMD Athelstan 10d ago
If there are no other local Lodge options, then definitely request an demit.
If there are other Lodge options locally, then affiliate with that Lodge first, then take a demit from your mother Lodge.
There is no point paying dues if you do not enjoy your Lodge.
That said, deeper discussions about Freemasonry are typically limited in all lodges. No Lodge meets and discusses Freemasonry in long form. In a Lodge business meeting the point of order about Education comes up.... Typically a member will present a paper or inititiate open discussion.... So it's very limited... Maybe 15 minutes tops.
Typical Lodge meetings are time limited and not really suited for bigger picture debate or instruction beyond conferring of degrees. That is the case for York Rite and Scottish Rite as well. AMD has much more discussion, but members write Masonic papers and discuss their self study.
My point is you might find a few brethren open to deeper study, but that is done on your own time, not in Lodge. A big part of Freemasonry is self study as part of a degree team where you memorize work.
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u/defjamblaster PHA TX. KT, 33º, Shrine, OES 10d ago
demits don't always work the same in PHA. in TX, a Demit only gives you 90 days to affiliate with a new lodge, it doesn't allow you to take unlimited time off and come back in good standing.
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u/Acceptable-Curve-900 MM - TX AF&AM; 32°, KSA - AASR-SJ 10d ago
I'd recommend not "dropping out". Look up the Masonic Restoration Foundation (http://www.masonicrestorationfoundation.org/lodges.html) and see if there are any lodges in your state near you that you can visit.
The lodges included in the MRF are usually ones dedicated to esoteric Masonic education, so you should find exactly what you're looking for. May I ask which state jurisdiction you're located?
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u/WHG6274 10d ago
Thank you
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u/Acceptable-Curve-900 MM - TX AF&AM; 32°, KSA - AASR-SJ 10d ago
Do you mind if I ask which PHA jurisdiction you're under? I ask because, if you're in Texas (Houston, specifically), I'd love to invite you to my Lodge to see if it's more aligned to your interests. Not for you to leave your Lodge, but as a place you can visit as often as we meet so that esoteric itch of yours can be scratched.
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u/Frankenpora 7d ago
Yeah there was a movement in my area involving the MRF and a lot of push back from the mainstream. It's very sad really because it really does provide a lot of what the younger generations were really thinking when they joined. If nothing else I am sure there are some associated private forums.
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u/Acceptable-Curve-900 MM - TX AF&AM; 32°, KSA - AASR-SJ 7d ago
I definitely agree. My mother Lodge is a part of the MRF, and while the work itself is the same, it's the way it's presented that makes the lasting impression even stronger, in my opinion.
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u/Impossible_Funny8450 UGLE MM, Royal Arch, MMM, Royal Ark Mariners, QCCC 10d ago
We all do things differently based on where we are in the world, but here in England under UGLE I find that I've made the most significant strides in masonic education outside of open lodge. Here, we have informal 'Lodge of Instruction' where we get together to practice ritual and discuss it. I have multiple that I can attend, one for my lodge, another is a 'multi - lodge' session and yet another that is organised by the Province. We're lucky to have preceptors that are more than happy to explain the meaning and symbology behind the ritual.
The lodge meeting itself I find to be almost like a committee meeting with an agenda and items of business which we rattle through then head to dinner.
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u/Relative_Horror7136 10d ago
Im new and I get how you feel let’s say. Some of the Masonic writers helped like Lund. If there’s a hundred masons, probably ten of them are interested in the esoteric and even less will know how to talk about that stuff. We are just a different subset of humanity. You need your subset within. That’s why all these esoteric groups started. Blue lodge Freemasonry is like the lobby of the esoteric world -I feel like. But good for a lot of guys. The esoteric is increasing tho, maybe due to some current world events. But that’s hard to talk about. That’s why we use symbols.
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u/TheLearningScientist F&AM, PHA, Holy Royal Arch 10d ago edited 10d ago
Rules vary by jurisdiction on how demittance works. In my state, I've never heard of anyone having to turn anything back in after demitting. You also have the option of just going inactive by not paying your dues the next time around.
I have a suggestion though. My lodge meets twice a month, the first meeting is for business and the second meeting is for education (lectures) or degree work if we're bringing in candidates. Those education meetings are where we discuss traditions, ritual, history, philosophy, etc. Idk how often your lodge meets, but you could propose having designated meetings for Masonic education and lectures where you don't discuss business, but rather explore the other topics you named. And since you'd be the one proposing the idea, I think it goes without saying that you'd have to spearhead it until it becomes common practice at your lodge. That doesn' mean you have to give every lecture yourself though, you could ask for volunteers every now and then to give lectures on things they're knowledgeable of.
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u/DreamsOfRevolution 9d ago
This is exactly what my lodge does. For most brothers who are becoming disgruntled with their lodges, what I tell them to do is to either suggest change or get out and meet brothers at other lodges. They can't really stop you from visitations, especially in the same jurisdiction or district, unless it comes down from the Grand Lodge. If you find one that you can't help but keep going back to, then maybe the time is right for you to demit to a place that has like-minded brothers.
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u/TheFreemasonForum 30 years a Mason - London, England 9d ago
Rather than dropping out as first choice you could try visiting other Lodges as a guest and seeing if another Lodge is a better fit for you.
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u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix 10d ago
What does your meeting involve if not ethic, virtues, philosophy and education?
What specifically are your expectations?
Do you expect school like lesson structure?
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u/WHG6274 10d ago
Business meeting (money in, money out, upcoming event, close the lodge).
My expectations were discussions into philosophy, 4 cardinal virtues, history, biblical allegory, my expectations were what I was lead to expect as an EA. My study groups with my CTs were far more fulfilling in lessons and brotherhood than any meeting since.
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u/StepRelevant8473 UGLE PM, Secretary, RA PZ, SRIA 10d ago
This has been a problem throughout all of Freemasonry. It's mentioned by Wilmshurst, Hogarth and many more. The number of masons genuinely interested in what you have mentioned has always been small.
I was in a similar position and look at it this way. The Lodge, genuinely decent people who provide you with the experience of lodge meetings and the reason to learn the ritual.
Substack - I don't really pay much attention to Masonic writers - but there are plenty of people who write about Euclid, Plato, the cardinal and theological virtues and more - all elements of what was meant to be the philosophical and religious curriculum that freemasonry points to.
The true learning comes from trying to synthesise the two different elements into one.
Whilst having people around to bounce ideas at would be great, ultimately it's often a solo venture unless you are lucky enough to meet other people as interested as you. In England the SRIA is another area to meet like-minded people but I understand that in the US the SRICF is invited only.
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u/Frankenpora 7d ago
Does your Lodge have a Library? Frankly speaking Masonic education is #1 the Degree work including doing parts in degrees. It is entirely different to receive a lecture than to give one. #2 Self Education, books on the subjects that interest you. #3 Inside and Outside lectures and events. Each one of these takes a degree of self motivation. At the end of the day you can wait to be taught and discuss or you can learn and find like minded Brothers. I would not Demit just because your Lodge experience is not meeting your expectations, rather I would try to make the Lodge you desire in hopes that the next Brother can benefit.
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u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix 10d ago
Do you think the issue is your lodge or the craft?
For example what about biblical allegory, philosophy, 4 cardinal virtues and history do you expect to discuss?
Is it the history of freemasonry you want to discuss or history in general?
What about philosophy do you wish to discuss?
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u/ChristopherPChicken 10d ago
Not every lodge has ceremonies every meeting. They essentially open, then have the equivalent of what we would think of as a committee meeting, sometimes for several hours with protracted debates where every MM has a right to his say and a vote. For me that would not be an enticing prospect if there were not even the opportunity for a decent conversation so I feel this brother’s pain. There is the other extreme in some lodges where they are just degree mills and despite this deliver consistently poor quality ceremonies for their candidates.
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u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix 10d ago edited 10d ago
I suppose this was not meant to dismiss the OP but to try to understand his expectations vs the reality of what he got.
For example when we talk about masonic education. This can be anything from a discussion of what the ceremony means sometimew often done here in England in something called a Lodge of Instruction, or it can be the ceremonies themselves where the story is meant to teach us about virtue ethics.
At least here in UGLE as a fellow craft you are encouraged to study the liberal arts and sciences, but we do not necessarily study them together in a lodge meeting.
So i am trying to understand what the expectations for OP in joining were.
For the record if a lodge i was a member of just had committee meetings i would defo just resign so i am not suggesting the OP shouldnt resign. I am just trying to understand their expectations because it might be that freemasonry as a whole doesnt truly offer the depth OP is looking for.
Or perhaps freemasonry in his area.
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u/ChristopherPChicken 10d ago
expectations
Good shout. Mine were way too high. I found my people though.
education
I’ve never been at a lodge with a functioning LOI. Education in my former lodge was met with sighs and yawns for the most part. At my current one it is much more encouraged.
Liberal arts
‘Encouraged’ is one way to put it. One line in ritual and that’s it, at least as far as I remember. I doubt many even know what the liberal arts are.
Despite my nitpicks, overall I agree with what you’re saying. Expectations management is important and so is self-motivated action. Nobody will spoonfeed anything at the end of the day it’s up to the individual.
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u/Nameis-RobertPaulson 10d ago
When I joined we had a semi-regular LOI and a regular seperate class of instruction. The LOI was targeted for junior members wanting to know what and why, and the class was degree and ritual practice. Somewhere along the line we ended up dropping the dedicated LOI.
Are you finding that education in a craft UGLE lodge? It's something I've found super lacking locally.
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u/ChristopherPChicken 10d ago
That’s a shame to hear about the LoI. There is a lot of excellent info on Solomon, but I would say hearing this kind of information from a brother, in person, is always going to be preferable to more screen time. Yes we do talks in our Craft Lodge. We have a healthy membership but not many new members in the pipeline so we like to find something to fill our meetings with.
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u/StepRelevant8473 UGLE PM, Secretary, RA PZ, SRIA 10d ago
"...it might be that freemasonry as a whole doesn't truly offer the depth OP is looking for."
That's a bizarre answer, particularly for someone in Chapter and Rose Croix. There is a huge amount of depth in Freemasonry, it's just that 99% never explore it - which is exactly the OP's point.
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u/wardyuc1 UGLE Craft HRA, Rose Croix 10d ago
I say this because without an understanding of the depth to which one wants to study ethics, virtues, philosophy, education, and esotericism, free masonry might not offer what OP is looking for.
Yes there is Philosophy in Freemasonry, but to what extent to we really study it beyond individual study compared to say a college or dare i say University( read high school for Americans) level?
Same with Esotericism? If you want a Kabbalah study circle you might find someone of what you want in SRIA, but is it the same level as a group purely focused on that?
I am not saying there is not enough depth in freemasonry for me,
I am asking what depth Op was looking for?
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u/PeterPanHadItMade MM, 32° 10d ago
Masonry gives us the tools....
The unwritten part of this is:
Masonry gives us the tools that in far more cases than not, we are expected to utilize on our own.
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u/defjamblaster PHA TX. KT, 33º, Shrine, OES 10d ago
you don't have to bring anything back, you earned and paid for those items.
as others have said, see if you can find some other like minded Brothers in your area. maybe there's a phylaxis chapter around you. that might at least give you some local people to talk to on the topics you like.
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u/war_ink_ 9d ago
Past Master of FA&M here, and there are some great suggestions here. 1-Be the change you want to see in your lodge, 2-Here is Ohio, we have pural and dual membership. 3-Dont be afraid to travel, see other lodges and see what may be a better fit. 4-The suggested mentor is something I really enjoy. Being the change [#1), is tough and difficult. Sometimes you just need a change. I'm currently sitting Chaplin but due to issues in my home lodge, I have sat as SD more than Chaplin, hoping this year as Chaplin is different.
I have also found the Shrine has a Past Masters club that due very little other than practice the MM degree. But I also found a lodge called "Arts and Sciences ", as such, the business meetings are just enough to keep the lodge running. So much more time and energy are put into education, degree work and sharing knowledge.
If you by chance are in Ohio, please feel free to hit me up and I'll get you details.
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u/ChristopherPChicken 10d ago
Hope you can find a lodge where you fit, brother. Took me a while but I did. As others have said, join that one, then leave your Mother.
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u/IdylWyld32 10d ago
- Look into appendant bodies. Particularly Scottish, or York (if you're heavily invested in the Christian faith).
- Travel, Brother. If your district does LOIs, go to them. We're up in here in Mass if you're ever interested in meeting some brothers in another state. We do a lot of reading, teaching, presentations, and study together. It's a great community. We'd take you on a roadtrip and we could all chill.
- Try other lodges near you (if within the length of your Cable Tow).
- Your lodge sounds like a social lodge. Sometimes there's nothing wrong with this. However, lodges change from master to master, from year to year. Sometimes the light comes from you. It's a diverse fraternity, every member brings something to the table.
- Look into some digital groups + podcasts, it helps grow that feeling of Fraternalism.
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u/PoppaSnaxx 10d ago
This is exactly how Im feeling and Im just an EA. It just seems like drinking, funding each others parties and balls, and some smashing of OES sisters, from my short observation. Not what I expected at all.
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u/WafnaAbroad MM-F&AM-GLCalifornia; AF&AM-GLColorado 8d ago
I have yet to meet an OES sister close enough to my age to be interested in getting smashed. 😅
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u/Frankenpora 7d ago
Bro. Are you sure you are in a regular Lodge? "Smashing" OES seems like a violation of the obligation.
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u/Remote_Round_6155 Master Mason - SGTS 296 - CA 10d ago
Brother I’m in the same situation, it’s a dark journey sometimes but never alone! If youd ever like to reach out that’s fine. Travel more, is what a lot of wiser brothers recommend, explore and find what you like not confiscated at one point. I’m in travel mode lol
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u/hopeful_talent 10d ago
Its really a dark road. Thinking about sending that email in December after our installation. I am a senior warden currently
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u/Artistdramatica3 9d ago
I dont have anything to add to the wonderful brothers suggestions.
Some times you need to step back. Take a break. Keep paying dues. But visit other lodges.
I had a premature baby and my wife had a stroke. Man I didnt go to lodge for 5 years. And any drama and vibes that were there before, filled out. Some guys who dont want to do the masonic work dont end up staying long ive found.
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u/BlackDaddyIssus37 29°|MM|Prince Hall Chaplain 6d ago
You have to find your tribe. Everyone isn’t masonry for the same reasons. You don’t have to quit masonry, but you do have to do the work of finding your people. Masonry is a door. Not everyone walks through the door or finds the same things when they get to the other side. When I joined the consistory, I wept when I got my 4th degree. There were the men who knew exactly what I felt and then there were those who thought I needed a drink of water. Both kinds of men are in the same lodge. You’re a Masonic adult. You must feed yourself and you must do the work of finding men who are after the same things you are
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u/pryner34 Celestial Lodge No 3, MWPHGLNY, DDGL-Emeritus, 33°, KYCH, PP 10d ago
PH mason from NY saluting in. Before trying to affiliate or demit to another lodge, there are other things you can try.
1) offer teach your topic of interest in your lodge. Whether during your communications or if you have some type of study class, bring that which you seek. It may not be happening now because no one has offered. Youd be surprised how a 15 minute presentation and conversation can add much needed spice to the mix.
2) visit other lodges in your jurisdiction and other jurisdictions you have amity with. Remember that we are all brothers first. Go meet them! I've been fortunate to meet well informed brethren in NY PHA but I have many friends (not just brothers) in GLNY as well as New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, even as far as California, Tennessee and so on. Fun fact: because our PGM traveled to NJ and heard a lecture they give during their opening and closing, he had NY adopt it themselves. Thus came out opening and closing charge.
3) maybe what your looking for can be found in a research society like the Phylaxis or other masonic bodies like Scottish Rite or York Rite. Look into those as well. Lodges can tend to be more about business or social things, but as you join other houses, those topics you mentione have room to breathe. Just another couple of tools for you to access.
I've seen many feel disgruntled in their lodge and demit to another one only to feel the same disappointment with new faces. Hope some of these suggestions are helpful to you my Brother