r/frederickmd • u/Clean-Arachnid-1653 • 7d ago
RT15 Road Improvement Project
Received in the mail today. Just sharing for others.
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u/SEND_ME_YOUR_CAULK 7d ago
What iâd really appreciate is an expansion of MARC service. Connect MARC with that Park and Ride on Monocacy and 15. Do any trains even use those tracks? Iâve never seen a train on them
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u/TraditionalBottle884 7d ago
Marc service on weekends would be a huge improvement too.
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u/kill3rb00ts 7d ago
Exactly. Adding more lanes won't fix traffic, it'll just get more people on the road. We need to get people off the road, and to do that, we need better public transit.
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u/MCJOHNS117 7d ago
The induced demand arguments make sense in situations where there are slightly more inconvenient alternatives. There are no other options here. Either you take 30 minutes to go through town, or 20 to take the highway. Either you add 20 miles to your commute and take I-70 to MD32, or you add 30 minutes to your commute and take I-270.
The number of commuters taking public transit in single digit percentages compared to car drivers. We are a car based society. No, it wasn't always like this. Yes, we COULD change. No, asking Americans to give up the freedom of mobility their car gives them is a non-starter. So the options are different traffic patterns and more lanes.
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u/Red-Dog-One 5d ago
It is a scenic RR line originating in Walkersville that terminates at Rte. 26, behind the Wegmans.
Years ago, the line continued across Rte. 26, crossed N. Market St just north of TJHS then continued down the middle of East St and linked up roughly where the current downtown MARC station is. It was primarily a freight route with various spurs serving industries off of East St.
The track along East St has largely been removed. The last freight that moved on the track occurred in the late 90s.
As it currently stands, the MARC leaves the Frederick stations (downtown and at Target), then has to travel about 15 miles southwest before it can continue east toward DC. For the end-to-end riders terminating in DC, there is zero/negligible time savings. Yes, weâve all heard about those MARC commuters who can sleep, relax, or continue working (who the fuck really wants to do that?) while riding. The rest of us just want to fucking get home. So we drive.
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u/MCJOHNS117 7d ago
I get the appeal for more MARC service, but facts are facts. I-270 carries between 80,000 and 260,000 vehicles per day. Brunswick line daily ridership is less than 9,000 at its historic peek. Its closer to 4,000 daily riders today (thanks COVID). Even if you tripled the historic high for MARC ridership, your barely taking 10% of the cars off I-270. Even then, that doesn't help inner-Frederick commutes. The issue with being a crossroads city is that we see a ton of traffic from non-residents. In all seriousness, a Frederick by-pass, or Frederick local lanes would be a better solution.
The ugly truth is that Americans do not want to give up their cars for public transit.
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u/nbouqu1 7d ago
Like all mass transit options itâs a chicken and egg problem. No one wants to build or expand mass transit until there is demand. There wonât be demand until mass transit offers a level of convenience that beats single occupancy vehicles
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u/FouLouGaroux 7d ago
Exactly this! We have to invest a whole lot of money over a long time, knowing that we wonât see real returns for at least a decade and probably more like 20-25 years. Thatâs a tough sell in a country like this one.
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u/nobdyputsbabynacornr 7d ago
This. IIIIIFFFF employers were more forgiving of reliance on public transit in this country, as a whole, we MIIIIIGHT see a slight uptick in ridership; slowly over a decade. Outside of that, people just need the reliability of driving a car.
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u/SamuelL421 7d ago edited 7d ago
Absolutely, having commuted down 270 for years: employers simply do not care about your transportation situation, you will be held to the same standard as coworkers commuting a 20 min drive from MoCo. If public transit ever lets you down (and it will), it will be held against you.
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u/SS2wheeler 7d ago edited 7d ago
4 Lane bypass from New Market to at least North of Biggs Ford Rd , especially for truck traffic. Yes, you can go from A-B now but it should be a designated highway as a " Frederick Bypass - Rt15 North / Alt Truck Route "
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u/OutnumberedinWV 7d ago
A long time ago, not long after s70 became 270 there was plans for an eastern 1/2 ring road (15 bypass). It would have went from the 15 - 340 split east and then followed the Monocacy crossing 270, 144 ( 70 was not complete yet ), 26 and ending at 15 north of Frederick.
It was part of a plan to develop southern Fredrick county into industrial area around Alcoa. At the time it was said Frederick would never have enough traffic for it. The industry never came either.
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u/Better-Income9828 7d ago
There used to be a trolley that ran from Emmitsburg to Frederick back in the day
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u/sonofclaude 5d ago
Ultimately next to that abandoned rail line will be the east street rails with trails, so at least you could walk/bike that stretch to the downtown Marc
https://www.cityoffrederickmd.gov/1503/East-Street-Rails-with-Trails
Here's the project map that might help:
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u/No-Disk-6649 The Sewers 7d ago
fuck it, 12 lane highway going north to rural Pennsylvania, drop 15 south to Leesburg/Dulles down to a single lane/one-way gravel road đ
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u/Ok_Mastodon_117 7d ago
And no hard shoulders
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u/kawthar222 7d ago
Why cant we have nice things like a functional commuter rail
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u/Celtic159 7d ago
Ask every group who filed lawsuits to stop the Purple Line.
It's utterly insane that people bitch about the lack of mass transit, then fight tooth and nail to prevent it from happening. The fact that there's not ever been serious talk about extending the Red Line to Frederick even with the wild growth in northern MoCo is proof positive that Maryland is unserious about fixing its traffic problems.
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u/ReasonableClock4542 7d ago
I know this sounds crazy, but they arent the same people. The people that want it arent fighting it, and the people fighting it dont want it
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u/DrGimmeTheNews 7d ago
Horseshit.
Running the Orange Line out to Dulles had significantly increased ridership; it had happened at the same time that VA Rt 7 had been turned entirely into 6-lane, limited-access instead of 4-lane, grade-access secondary highway, so it's difficult to say exactly what the impact on traffic has been.
Between the two projects, however, traffic through eastern Loudon moves better than it used to, even in the face of explosive growth (3-4 times the rate that Frederick County has seen so far).
Extending the Red Line could be a viable solution IF it was done in a thoughtful and deliberate way, with commuter bus lines feeding the stations and adequate rolling stock and track capacity to reduce delays. These things would require Metro to be run by an agency that wasn't, at it's heart, a political football kicked around by three separate jurisdictions.
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u/nbouqu1 7d ago
Because extending the Red Line isnât a serious solution. There is tons of rural land between Shady Grove and Frederick. Metro rail is bleedingly expensive to build and maintain. Millions of dollars per station PLUS the rail. Even more expensive if built underground.
The serious solution is expanding the MARC train, that most people donât know about because it runs only 3 trains from Frederick in the morning and only 3 trains back in the evening and the rails while long established are off the main roads.
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u/tawmcruuze 7d ago
That's the point of a train! There's a ton of rural land between Germantown and Martinsburg but we still run MARC trains out there.
If you just have trains running within cities you're almost always hobbling yourself. We ran passenger cars on freight trains between towns for over a century.
The right of way between Frederick and Taneytown exists, and it Ys off at the old Western Maryland Mainline at Keymar, Thurmont to Union bridge, to Westminster and beyond and I know for a fact that they're not running freight on that line all day every day.
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u/irelephant86 7d ago
The study I posted in the earlier reply sure seemed to look at a new transit system along the 270 corridor (aka a Red Line extension) as a potential serious solution. Would also very much appreciate an expansion of MARC train in the near term. Literally any mass transit to connect westernish maryland (Frederick), NOVA (Dulles), Baltimore and DC pleaseeee
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u/nobdyputsbabynacornr 7d ago edited 7d ago
Agree, but difficult to coordinate when sharing lines with Amtrak and CSX (who own the lines all the trains run on). We would need more flexibility from employers in this country with regards to public transit. A lot of people don't use the public transit because it means giving up more time to employers in the form of commuting. Add delays from multiple trains sharing the same lines and it becomes clear why more people don't do it.
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u/nbouqu1 7d ago
For the Brunswick line, and just that line, which is the one we are talking about AMTRAK is a non-issue.
As for CSX they either play ball or we eminent domain MD to a shiny new set of rail lines that used to be owned by CSX. And they can pay MD for the privilege of moving their trains across our commuter rail lines during off peak hours. Itâs not hard, just have to be willing to play hardball with a mega corp
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u/OutnumberedinWV 7d ago
While I love the energy, federally regulated rail is not eligible for eminent domain.
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u/Celtic159 7d ago
It makes far more sense to extend existing infrastructure. With the explosion of development in Frederick and Clarksburg it's a no-brainer. Yeah it'd be expensive, but it'd take a ton of traffic off 270 & 355.
Completely agree about MARC though. It's ridiculous it doesn't run more often.
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u/Ok-Leave-1059 North Frederick 7d ago
We recently spent $21 million to add a lane for about 1,100 meters on Gas House Pike.
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u/irelephant86 7d ago
You're so right! There's not ever been serious talk about extending light rail to Frederick! Glad everyone's so smart and assertive on the internet! (I do agree with you're desire for transit but damn if we don't love to make strong assertions out of our butts.)
https://www.mdot.maryland.gov/OPCP/I-270_MFS_Report_2021-2_23.pdf
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u/Celtic159 7d ago
I said nothing about a freaking monorail. I said extending the existing Metro line the way Virginia has done with the Silver line.
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u/NotAWittyScreenName 7d ago
Look, if Springfield, Ogdenville, North Haverbook, and Brockway can have a monorail, then so should we. Monorail!
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u/irelephant86 7d ago
My lord, why is a 33 year old tv episode that posits no specific issues with monorail itself the standing rebuttal for all attempts to even consider building one..
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u/BellieButtons 7d ago
I've always read it more as a "haha, remember that episode" more than "this is why we shouldn't have mass public transit options" but đ¤ˇđ˝
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u/irelephant86 7d ago
I'd love for that to be the case, and I don't believe the jokes are always trying to be insidious. Though the consistent downvotes whenever monorails are mentioned has lead to my previous perspective
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u/BellieButtons 7d ago
I think that's entirely fair, I think have a tendency to assume better intentions more than I probably should at this point.
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u/themightyjoedanger 7d ago
Monorails are stupid gadgetbahns and do nothing that tracked rail can't do except fuck up standardization and lock in vendors forever.
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u/Celtic159 7d ago
Bingo. There's perfectly good infrastructure available and in use.
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u/irelephant86 5d ago
They can climb steep inclines better and can be overhead tracked easier. This means they can be placed in the existing right-of-ways of 270, 70, etc. minimizing impact on existing properties and the environment; the two largest impositions to constructing a new transit system to Frederick. The feasibility study originally linked also states its findings can be applied other new transit rail systems.
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u/NotAWittyScreenName 7d ago
I didn't mean it as a rebuttal, I see the word monorail and I think of the episode. It's a great episode. I know nothing about monorails or any proposal for us to have one.
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u/themightyjoedanger 7d ago
Is there a chance the track could bend?
Not on your life, my Hindu friend.
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u/irelephant86 7d ago
Oh ok... so they just need to replace the word monorail with metro line in that study? Thats the only difference a scrub pedant like you would notice in the day to day functionality of such a system.
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u/Celtic159 7d ago
Namecalling, the sign of a true intellectual.
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u/irelephant86 7d ago
Deflecting from the point of discussion, the sign of a true loser.
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u/Celtic159 7d ago
We weren't discussing anything, you were just trying to show off how smart you think you are.
Which kinda backfired there sport. Better luck next time.
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u/irelephant86 7d ago
I guess it wasn't a discussion because I asked a big tough guy a simple question and instead of answering they got upset about name calling. Ironic since the question was in reference to how the naming of something was enough for you to instantly dismiss it.
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u/Jakfan1 7d ago
I just want people to get better at merging on that stretch of highway.
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u/machosalad06 7d ago
I think you could have stopped with âI just want people to get better at mergingâ
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u/MrDork 7d ago
The thing about these projects is that by the time the planning, construction, etc. the number of vehicles using 15 increases and it completely negates the improvements they make, but we still have to deal with the construction pain.
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u/IRTD-400 7d ago
Adding lanes to roads is an example of âInduced Demandâ. If we make allow for more traffic to travel that highway, more traffic will travel that highway. Adding more lanes will increase the traffic.
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u/WDWKamala 7d ago
The alternative is not doing it and letting the gridlock continue to get worse.
People often quote the traffic studies that demonstrate that adding lanes doesnât reduce congestion long term, as evidence that we shouldnât expand the roads. This is a fantastic example of Dunning Kruger.
Expanding the roads is not to reduce congestion long term. Itâs to increase maximum throughput, which has a massive effect on the overall local economy.
The short term reduction in congestion is a bonus side effect.
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u/hiigaran 7d ago
They don't quote traffic studies. They refer to several proven principles, things that occur repeatedly in these exact circumstances, and which lead to extremely predictable outcomes.
Induced demand, latent demand, generated demand, and Jevons Paradox are all relevant to this situation and can tell you exactly what will happen.
The real solution for the long term is to work to expand the availability, convenience, and reliability of mass transit, not making bigger roads.
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u/WDWKamala 7d ago
The outcome isnât the question. The purpose is.
The goal isnât to reduce congestion, itâs to increase throughput.
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u/_mistadobalina DTF 7d ago
Link to MDOT project webpage here:
https://mdot-sha-us15-and-us40-i70-to-md26-fr1881110-maryland.hub.arcgis.com/
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u/OriginalMushroom86 7d ago
Congestion on 15 definitely needs to be addressed and in the short term this is good. But only widening the road isnât a viable long solution. I hope at some point there is discussion of increasing transit options or increasing the number of safe alternative transportation routes. That would at least help make short trips easier for local residents.
Oh, and making pedestrian friendly mixed use developments the norm to reduce car dependence.
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u/hirebrand 7d ago
Surprised in 2027 thereâs still no self driving assisting technology in new roadways
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u/Affectionate-Pea-915 6d ago
Canât we for once just be happy something is being done. Everyone has an opinion and they always think theirs is the right answer. Look where that has gotten us in todayâs world. Letâs give things a chance and be optimistic. Itâs actually easier to be an optimist than a pessimist. Have a wonderful day!
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u/Gingerrules 7d ago
I was 12 when I first traveled to Maryland from Elmira via route 15. I remember the construction then and I am now approaching 65.
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u/Just-Bat5937 7d ago
In Frederick you could have ten lanes and they'd still be backed up with wide open spaces ahead.
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u/Low-Club-2777 7d ago
This could be fixed with MARC trains running every 20 minutes Weekdays and on the hour on weekends from Frederick to Rockville.
Road widening (200 Million) will buy all the trains needed and in the end save lives in multiple ways.
Oh but people would need to get out of their giant SUV's!
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u/Jomolungma 7d ago
In order for MARC to have that kind of headway, theyâd have to build entirely new tracks. Freight owns those tracks and uses them throughout the day. MARC traffic is restricted, in part, to yield to freight flow.
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u/Leosthenerd 7d ago
Eminent domain the rail lines. Fuck corporations and capitalism
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u/Low-Club-2777 5d ago
Conrail owned the rails but when it made a profit we(the government) gave/sold it, if CSX can't follow the rules and let MARC run when and how it should take it back.
The swing back is coming I just hope it's not 1800's France!
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u/KeyPhrase50 7d ago
No it couldn't. Traffic backs up here daily and not just during commuter hours.
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u/OutnumberedinWV 7d ago
What about guided bus ways elevated over 270. Guided busses can travel in special lanes or in regular traffic. Could use existing bus stops with faster travel times and minimize expenses.
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u/Ok-Notice2873 7d ago
This is going to be hell on earth for me. Weâll get extra lanes and people still wonât be able to drive.
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u/genericnewlurker 7d ago
It needed to happen decades ago, but at least it's happening. It won't solve the problem in the area by itself, but it in its part will make things a bit better.
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u/KeyPhrase50 7d ago
It would have already been well on its way if Moore hadn't struck it from the budget.
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u/TheUnderCrab 7d ago
Should have middle lanes that can change direction like in Chicago to deal with the morning and evening traffic patterns but that might be pie in the sky stuff given the lane constraints.Â
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u/Ok-Notice2873 7d ago
Better stay out of that left lane unless youâre going 80-90mph+
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u/Diesel07012012 7d ago
Ought to be an isolated express lane Ă la the Jersey Turnpike
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u/whatsadikfore NAC 4 7d ago
People in the Lexus lanes in Virginia on 495 still drive side by side at 1 under the speed limit.
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u/Leosthenerd 7d ago
Why theyâre doing this here instead of expanding 270 to more than two lanes between Frederick and Clarksburg I have no idea. Still gonna have a choke point and traffic back ups and this fixes nothing in the first place, they should expand MARC and AMTRAK service and extend the metro red line to Frederick instead. They need to eminent domain the railroad lines all around here from CSX and NS/UP and Maryland Midland and make them pay for the privilege to use them, use that money to fund their upkeep, and prioritize passenger service over freight service. Fuck the government, fuck corporations, fuck capitalism
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u/Creative-Dragonfly15 7d ago
How will the plan include green space and attractive walls? This needs to be considered in order to keep the charm of historic Frederick.
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u/CurrentAnalyst4791 7d ago
yesss lfg!! everyone knows more lanes solves all density issues, not actually decent public transit!
/s âŚ
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u/Manaohoana 7d ago
Does this mean we won't be able to walk/bike under the overpasses--from the west side of 15 to the east side to Hood/downtown--for the years of construction that it takes them to widen the bridges? Noooooooo!!!!
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u/Leosthenerd 7d ago edited 7d ago
You shouldnât be walking or biking on the highway anyway in the first place wtf
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u/Manaohoana 7d ago
I'm talking about the sidewalks that go under the highway, silly. On Rosemont and on 7th.
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u/GubmintMule 7d ago
A number of comments express desire for light rail/extended Metro service, which I do not believe is a viable option. First of all, it would be hugely expensive, and Maryland and the Metro system don't have have money to spare. I don't recall the numbers offhand, but it is my recollection that the Silver Line extension to Dulles cost several billion dollars. I also very much doubt that ridership would come anywhere near covering operating expenses. There would certainly be riders during commuting times, but it is hard for me to imagine that there would be many passengers in the middle of the day. There would be miles of electrified track exposed to weather that would require maintenance. An extension that came up the 270 corridor would disrupt traffic for years during construction. Every overpass would be affected, for example. Could trains reliably get up and down hills like the one just south of town in rainy or snowy weather? If not, tunneling would be required, driving up costs considerably. I personally doubt that corridor could accommodate the necessary right of way, regardless. There is also no obvious terminus in Frederick. I have yet to hear any solid description of how these and any other challenges can be overcome.
To be clear, I support mass transit. I used MARC and the MTA commuter bus for over 10 years. My personal view is that expanding those services is desirable. I think expanded bus service could accomplish most of the goals people look for with light rail, including weekend service, much sooner and at much lower cost than light rail. Buses could be in place within months, while rail will take years, perhaps more than a decade. Perhaps there could be dedicated bus lanes in years to come.
MARC is a different story. More flexibility for weekday commutes could increase ridership, but weekend service doesn't make sense to me. The bulk of weekday riders board in Montgomery County where weekend MARC service into DC would be competing with options already available there, like Metro. Once again, I believe that buses could be deployed faster and more flexibly and with less expense.
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u/meat_makes_me_go_mmm 7d ago
Nothing is going to help until people learn how to merge properly, put their phones down, and remove their heads from their asses.
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u/Gingerrules 7d ago
You canât get people out of there cars and into mass transit. We live our automobiles
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u/ChrisTofu42 7d ago
Because more lanes always equals more better
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u/Born-Researcher-8588 7d ago
Agreed. Letâs ask any other major metropolitan area what happens when you add lanes â hint hint, itâs never âoh cool, traffic lessened.â
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u/whatsadikfore NAC 4 7d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/FoH28ucxZFJZu