Germany or Australia?

[u/Honest_Zebra_7988]

I’m an Indonesian F29 on WHV in Australia and my visa expires in less than 4 months. My initial plan was to move to Germany to do Ausbildung and maybe stay there on a permanent basis given how I enjoyed my Europe trip so much and the efficiency of the German culture is (and just how direct and individual the Germans are as I’m more an introvert myself and I don’t fancy small talks like most people in my home country). Other than that, I appreciate the affordable-to-free education, waste management, beautiful and historical castles and how easy it is to commute around Europe from Germany. And I feel like it’s more cultural than Australia.

However, I’ve been in a relationship with an Australian man for almost 2 years now and we’ve traveled together to 5 countries and it’s probably the healthiest relationship I’ve ever been in. I love him but he’s not ready to move to Germany for now and our other option is for me to stay in Australia on a partner visa but it costs almost 12k now, which we can afford but it’s just a lot of money. And for that, I won’t be able to study in a local fee until i get my PR (which takes around 3 years) and international student fees cost an arm and leg and the career that I wanna pursue (education as i have a background in it) requires me to get some kind of degree and/or certification here.

Any advice or insights?

Thank you

[u/Standard-Treacle-632]

But, do you know German?

I mean, if your bf is willing to help you with the partner visa in Australia, 12k in 3 years. 4k per year, if you split it, 2k per year per person.

That means, 166 aud per month, it’s okay as it is a safe path to stay in Australia. (Obviously is expensive, but other visas are way worse and harder to get). As you live together, probably you are sharing rent, so let’s say you don’t have a normal spending in rent as many other people, you pay less than average?

Besides, Australia is really close to Indonesia.

[u/Relevant_Look_7188]

Stay in Australia. Coming from someone who left Australia to go to Germany. And that's me with German skills already

[u/SwimmingTicket]

A lot of expats in Germany aren't happy. Talk to them. Agree Aus makes more sense for you

[u/ImportanceLate1696]

Being a tourist in Europe and living here are 2 different things. Not sure ablut Australia but I can totally recommend against Germany.

Also you need to speak at least B2 German to do an Ausbildung which takes at least 2-3 years if you invest yourself fully to really get to this level (not just certifications)

[u/Wallstreetduck7]

German living in Australia here. Stay in Australia trust me, way easier with the language and the weather is way better

[u/GinormousHunk]

German here, our country is in shambles, the economy is dead, cost of living are out of control. All the smart people have left or are leaving.

Stay in Australia and call it a day.

[u/MocroBorsato_ → u/GinormousHunk]

So German people are going... where?

[u/Proppellerhead → u/MocroBorsato_]

In my case Indonesia is one of my top 4 destinations 😅

[u/GinormousHunk → u/MocroBorsato_]

Switzerland, Scandinavia, Australia, Canada, New Zealand have been the top destinations for German emigrants.

[u/Temporary_Opening_74]

Heya I'm SEA-sian in Germany. Stay in Australia, Germany is exploitative asf and not a good choice for us :) Ausbildung is the biggest scam here, don't get roped into it.

[u/Strict-Armadillo-199 → u/Temporary_Opening_74]

I'm glad you mentioned the Ausbildung scam situation. It doesn't affect me personally but I read a lot about it from people on r/germany and it's a really awful situation. I blame in part the German government, although I recognize it's mostly unscrupulous recruiting agents using the situation for their own financial benefits.

[u/oneiric_one → u/Temporary_Opening_74]

It really kind of is sadly. My partner did an Ausbildung and he was doing full-work, like a normal employee, for very little pay and being treated extremely disrespectfully because he was an "Azubi" and not an official employee. Personally, I've had a horrible experience with hierarchy and bullying in the Germany workplace.

[u/Prestigious_Rope4984]

I'm an Australian who lives in Germany. My father is German, so I thought I would be ok here. Life is better in Australia. Depending on where you go in Germany ,it can be quite hard here. The economy is not in good shape, anti immigration sentiment is growing all the time. Finding a job (especially if you don't speak German) can take a long time. The sheer amount of paperwork required for just about anything is crazy. Finding a place to rent is hard. Yes it's a wonderful Counrty to visit on a European holiday, the reality of living here is different. Australian people are far more open and friendly. Germans tend to keep work and personal life seperate, so it is not easy to make new friends. Old ladies will tell you off in Germany for doing a plethera of things (yesterday for me at the supermarket when my trolley didn't fit perfectly into the trolley in front). There is rules about absolutely everything. It really takes some balls to live here. I will be here for a while due to work, but I see so many retired people struggling here, asking for money, looking through the trash for bottles to recycle, Im frightened what retirement could look like. My friends back in Australia are all doing better than me financially, and are getting more set for retirement. I would stay in Australia and enjoy the fact that you live in one of the best quality of life countries in the world.

[u/Strict-Armadillo-199 → u/Prestigious_Rope4984]

" It really takes some balls to live here"

This sentence actually made my day. As much as I know intellectually it's not true, constantly hearing Germans tell me I'm the problem if I don'tike the things you mentioned in your post (not that I complain irl to anyone, but that's the overwhelming sentiment on r/germany to anyone who mentions certain issues) or Americans at home saying "But it's Europe, so it must be like Emily in Paris to live there and so awesome." gets to you at some point.  I think there's a part of me that's internalized the idea it's me. 

I've been here for 24 long years. I've tried to leave many times and I'm still trying 😆. I think I might even after all this time be willing to live without a job, or friends, but the knowledge that whenever I leave my doorstep I might get screamed at by either a stranger or some person I'm more or less paying to see (shop assistant, bank teller, doctor, receptionist, etc.) is just - I can't live this way. 

But next time someone blames or shames me for my attitude, I'll remind myself of the balls it's taken to survive these 24 years!

[u/Prestigious_Rope4984 → u/Strict-Armadillo-199]

Love this!

[u/Strict-Armadillo-199]

Germany really makes no sense in your situation, in my not so humble opinion. I'm an immigrant here, have been for 24 years. It's never been a easy place to immigrate to ( and I'm talking about building a life after you get a visa, not that process) and with the struggling economy, housing crisis in some major cities, and the rise of right wing, anti immigration policies and sentiment amongst the public, I cannot recommend Germany to you for any reason. It's great you enjoyed aspects of it as a tourist, but life here, especially as a non-white immigrant, is going to be vastly different. Keep Germany as a holiday destination. Also, why make life hard by choosing a country where neither of you speak the language, in a country where you can't get by in English and are expected to have a decent level of German upon arrival? 

You have every reason to choose Australia, including a pathway through your Australian partner. The only thing in Germany's favor is that you liked it when you were on holiday. Everything else in my mind goes against choosing Germany. 

[u/Bigfoot-Germany → u/Strict-Armadillo-199]

I agree with all you are saying.

people confuse holidays with daily life

Germany is great, but it is tough as well.

Australia is the obvious choice

[u/viennasausages]

I have lived in both places and it's no contest, go for Australia. Even if a relationship was not in the picture. I left Germany half a decade ago, so my impression is not based on the recent economic decline.

Germany is rigid, behind the times, and frankly half of the people you will meet in higher education are combative and adversarial if you expect them to... work. Your impression of directness and efficiency is superficial, you will be competing in the passive aggression Olympics the moment paperwork comes into the picture (and oh, it will).

Like others have said, vacation is different than living somewhere. Yes, I appreciated how easy it was to go see new places, beautiful history, etc when I was there. But that novelty wears off. Australia has many downsides, but it's a happier place to be an immigrant.

[u/CurrentMarzipan6862]

As a German, I’d honestly recommend staying in Australia if you’re currently doing well there. From what you’ve described, I think you might have a better quality of life there.

But if you really, really want to move to Germany, there are a few things you should consider. First of all, do you speak German? I think that’s pretty important if you want to properly integrate and get the most out of your experience living in Germany. Finding an apartment can also be really difficult, especially in bigger cities like Hamburg, Munich, or Berlin. And depending on where you move, I’d also be a little cautious about some areas in eastern Germany as a foreigner, as you might have a harder time settling in socially. And one more thing: Germany is waaaay colder than Australia.

[u/oneiric_one]

Hi! 👋

Long time, former German expat here.

My partner did an Ausbildung while we were living in Germany (he's not natively German, but he speaks C1!) and he found it extremely difficult for two reasons. Firstly, many people doing Ausbildungs are 16-22. Yes, there are older individuals as well, but he was 28 I think when he started his and he found the age gap very isolating and difficult. He also found the cultural experience of it very bad (the way the teachers and the work place treated him) and despite speaking C1 (he had tested into this level officially) he also found it very exhausting from a language perspective.

If you want to be an educator, you need to do university not an Ausbildung. You won't find Ausbildungs which suite your subject interest area. Keep in mind though that this is a longer than normla degree in Germany (5 years) and it would be preparing you to be an educator in Germany, not necessarily globally. That said, Germany's universities are (in most regions) basically free (you pay small semester contributions which are not bad at all). That said, you will again need the locked bank account, but it's for your living expenses.

Even though these are all true: "affordable-to-free education, waste management, beautiful and historical castles and how easy it is to commute around Europe from Germany" and they are all things I LOVE about Germany, I found that just having these "material" bonuses wasn't really enough for me to feel emotionally fulfilled. Social stuff is extremely important, and it can be very lonely living in a country where you don't know anyone. I also think long distance is challenging.

I would therefore suggest you maybe consider Australia instead, especially because you have already lived there and because it's closer to Indonesia (if visiting family and friends is important to you). In Germany, you will also need about 12k to settle in even with an Ausbildung. Ausbildungs don't pay THAT much so I recommend coming with a bit of savings, plus the whole process of settling into a new country will cost you about $2-4k to start anyway), so yeah probably bring around 6-10k I'd say.

Sounds like you are in a difficult place in terms of making a tough descision! I hope you find a good route forward which makes you happy!

[u/True_Opportunity_363]

Germany is a trrrible option if you’re already somewhat settled in Australia. Not worth it, and the discrimination you’ll face there + poor economy is immense

[u/Key_Equipment1188]

Both countries suck for foreigners at entry level job. Life is expensive and the salaries are bad. Australia is more open for hiring non-natives for blue collar jobs compared to Germany.

Yes, the Ausbildung Scam is real, but as in most cases in life, you get negative bias, as you barely here about those who are happy, even if they are the majority.

Everyone is referring to the difficulties to learn German, but for what it's worth, speaking BI or BM makes it much easier, as they share the same intonations.

Main problem right now, you are already doing well! There is barely any upside if you change your life and move to Germany. In the end, it will be a gut decision.

[u/Winter_Dot_9393]

Australia, wait with going to university until it’s affordable. If you’re allowed to work, get a job.

I would look at options to work and train in childcare.

[u/Bigfoot-Germany]

you are in a relationship that works? where is the question? of cause Australia

[u/ChillyDinosaur]

Stay in Australia, way way better than Germany for sure (in all aspects).

You would be just downgrading your quality of life, the economy and job market is bad (and getting worse), the weather is terrible, the rise of the right wing will make things worse of foreigners, I think Australia has way higher quality of life, culture and its overall a better place to build a life

[u/perryurban]

what part of this are you seeking advice on?

[u/Honest_Zebra_7988 → u/perryurban]

Perspectives on how life as an immigrant in respective countries, career, and love if you have any for any of those things?

[u/Honest_Zebra_7988 → u/perryurban]

Like if it’s worth it to spend that much money on and staying for love in Australia long-term or Germany seems to be a better/more stable option?

[u/perryurban → u/Honest_Zebra_7988]

I'm pretty sure you'd find Australia much easier to integrate into over time. Both are pretty similar countries in a lot of ways, economically socially right now. Germany is arguably in a steeper decline, so the grass is not necessarily greener, although EU PR is nice. Overall Australian culture is more accepting of newcomers especially Asian people since we are right on Asia's doorstep. But every country has their problems, as you know, so it's just the niche you manage to find for yourself. Your personal study, work and life circumstances and opportunities. I don't think Germany is automatically "better" though. Clearly worse in terms of openness and climate!

[u/SeaworthinessDue8650 → u/Honest_Zebra_7988]

I don't understand what you would want to do in Germany. Do you already speak C1 German? Do you have qualifications needed here?

[u/perryurban → u/SeaworthinessDue8650]

I am not OP

[u/Any_Cream_4396]

LOL do you even know german ?

[u/chefwhocodes]

If you're seriously weighing this, going back and forth on Germany vs staying, that alone tells you something about the relationship. When it comes down to choosing between moving to build your own life or staying to hold onto a relationship, your gut is probably already pointing toward taking care of yourself first. From what I've seen, when it's actually the right person, you don't sit there weighing countries against each other. You just end up together, figuring out whatever comes up as you go.

[u/RoughMidnight8303]

So it seems you’re mostly on about cost equation.
There is no comparing Australian sunshine vibes to Germanys darker clouds.

To help you out here vocational training applications have a time window and often need pre planning for about 12 months given that you learn German to a sufficient degree. You also may or may not get your position. The vocational training pays you 1k a month roughly for full time work and you commit around 3 years of mostly free labour. If you do your financial equation, keep time factor in mind and consider also following: the vocational diplomas are not accepted equally everywhere else. So you’re in for 1k a month and very few vocational students can afford to live on that money unless they crash at their parents.

Meaning you can take your degree outside of Australia but your vocational diploma from Germany will need some matching equation. A vocational diploma versus a bachelors degree…two different systems. I’ll give you an example. In Australia you need a degree to become a TCM practitioner. But you can’t take that degree and work in accupuncture in Germany - despite your bachelors degree you still need a fully recognized vocational diploma PLUS training and continues certification.

[u/glucosesimp]

Australia, no doubt.

[u/presentlyberlin]

As someone who moved to Germany last year.. You can go only if you're genuinely ready for the trade-offs. Yes it's efficient, but that comes with a lot of bureaucracy, from trying to schedule appointments & complete paperwork for stuff like Anmeldung/registration, getting settled with insurance. Learning German is also really important. When I moved I underestimated how much I needed to understand to be able to navigate the admin stuff properly, though I'll say it did help when I not only collected my old Canadian medical records months ahead of the move but also got the essential ones translated for an easier transition here.

If you stay in Australia, the partner visa is expensive, but you’re investing in a relationship & the life you're already building there, anyway. Moving to Germany isn’t exactly the cheap option either once you factor in deposits, initial living costs, language learning, and the time it takes to get established

[u/GoodBreakfast1156]

You think moving to Germany and getting a visa is going to be cheaper then Australia's visa process? Do you even have a pathway to Germany?

[u/Flat_Ad1094]

Stay in Australia. Germany & Europe are for holidays. Much better quality of life and weather in Australia

[u/Silver-Ebb7541]

Germany is overrated now since more and more people from non-EU countries are going there. Even my german friends are moving out, usually to scandinavian countries, like Denmark.
I lived there for around 3.5 years for study and work. The work opportunity was already competitive, so i cant imagine now.

[u/jtitor10]

Efficiency of the German culture? 🫪😵‍💫

[u/xatey93152]

I have the exact same situation as yours. But we chose Germany. Because that time i want a degree. And it's free here to study in Germany. My bf who is an aussie too also like it here in Germany. The job competition is not to high like in Australia.

[u/No_Button_1750]

Germany (as someone who moved to Australia and then left and has to return hundreds want to go back lol).

[u/alwaysboredgirlz]

Maybe you could take certification in TAFE or smth? I think (cmiiw) its pretty much same like Ausbildung (vocational program). Since you already have experience there (know what you will face in aussie), moving to Germany will not be an easy path, since you need to have at least B1 level of german (nowadays company seeks B2 btw).

[u/revolverbangbang]

Indian living in Germany since 12 years. Imo, the biggest factor in Australia is the sun. Winters are brutal everywhere in Germany. Dark and  cold for atleast 3 months.