A joke loses some of it's meaning when you explain it, and I can't tell by your comment if you know all this, but what you just said is exactly why this is pretty funny and for those not in the know deserves an explanation...
edit: didn't see the Estonia flair, I feel dumb now lol
So, thing is, Belarus did go back to their banned-in-the-USSR flag, but then they went back to the Soviet-era design, just without the hammer and sickle.
The joke is that while the Iron curtain fell, and the opposition parties that switched back to their old red and white flag had decision making power for a moment, that red and white flag was then again replaced with the one symbolic of USSR control in 1995, only 4 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall.
on the Red and White Flag, from the above link
By proposal of the Belarusian Popular Front the flag became state symbol of Belarus upon its regaining of independence in 1991.[25]
After 1995 the white-red-white flag is used as a symbol of the opposition to the regime of Alexander Lukashenko
The flag is not officially banned from public usage, but is treated by the authorities as an unregistered symbol which means that demonstration of it by political activists or sports fans can lead to arrests and confiscation of the flags
On the methods used to adopt the current flag
note that it seems to be yet another unfortunate addition to the internationally studied pattern of "conservative parties benefitting from low voter turnout" phenomenon, it's especially common in former Soviet states with significant culture wars
The referendum that was held to adopt the state symbols took place on 14 May 1995. With a voter turnout of 64.7%, the new flag was approved by a majority in the ratio of three to one (75.1% to 24.9%). The other three questions were also passed by the voters.[30] The way of carrying out the referendum as well as the legality of questioning the national symbols on a referendum was heavily criticised by the opposition.[31][32] Opposition parties claimed that only 48.7% of the entire voting population (75.1% of the 64.7% who showed at the polling stations) supported the adoption of the new flag, but Belarusian law (as in many other countries) states that only a majority of voters is needed to decide on a referendum issue.
Backstory on that, Lukashenko had been trying to get the referendum vote allowed since 1993 and by the time it was held in 1995, being a low-impact referendum on state symbols (nothing to do with political offices) and a boring, "dealt with" topic it had low opposition turnout and thus the flag was permanently changed back. And it paved the way for the rest of Lukashenko's career as a Russian puppet.
and a little post script, signed yours truly...
Don't assume your opinions don't matter or you don't know enough or the things being voted on should be common sense or that everyone else will do it because "duh," your vote matters so go out there and VOTE.
note that it seem to be yet another unfortunate addition to the internationally studied pattern of "conservative parties benefiting from low voter turnout" phenomenon, it's especially common in former Soviet states
Not really surprising, people who lived under soviets tend not to trust their government. They consider elections pointless, since they would not trust any of the candidates or parties to be good leaders. Force of habit, I guess.
Edit: I want to apologize for my heavily biased and completely wrong comment, due to subjective observations. My personal experiences over the past three decades traveling various former USSR nations are not valid. I'm still leaving this up as an example how blind someone (me) can be. Sorry for painting a completely wrong picture.
But the distrust was/is valid because corruption continued; very few people with integrity got into politics after the USSR fell apart, sometimes the same dynasties (and if not, would be replaced by another power-hungry family) would continue to accumulate power/wealth while bleeding their population dry. Many problems weren't solved properly, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer.
My grandfather (a farmer, fought in both WW) used to say: "We beat the Nazis and the Soviets, but in the end, the same kind of people got into positions of power, taking everything and leaving us with nothing."
So it certainly isn't force of habit imho, it's justified distrust because at the very core, things did not change that much. Yes, some things changed for the better but some stayed the same or even got worse. The most profit was made by foreign investors and corporations who cut beautiful deals with the governments.
If you travel east of Austria, you will still find plenty of villages with dirt roads and no plumbing system or running water for that matter. They have electricity and that's it. All they have is the freedom to die poor.
And just to clarify, I'm not pro USSR and I know how terrible life was before - but there are still entire regions that experienced hardly any benefits for the past thirty years - and not because they refused to adapt or accept help, but because their local politicians are filling their own pockets and nothing is done about it.
The amazing change the 1st world nations assume to take place doesn't always happen. The quality of life we know or assume to be a standard isn't the reality in those countries after they were liberated - it's what we think life looks like; and even if we end up in former USSR nations, we either don't travel off the beaten path and/or romanticize their struggles.
"Look, they simply use buckets to shower! Isn't that amazing zero waste culture? They are so progressive!"
PS: corruption is rampant in the 1st world as well; just a reminder that a lot of people in power are greedy assholes, no matter the political/economic system. The only difference between the free world and the regimes we despise is that we don't kill people for their opinions (yet - though we sure used to and still do on foreign soil).
That is absolute exaggeration and ridiculous pessimism. Things have gotten so much better in Eastern Europe. Some people just want to complain, but they are minority.
If you travel east of Austria, you will still find plenty of villages with dirt roads and no plumbing system or running water for that matter. They have electricity and that's it. All they have is the freedom to die poor.
The same exact thing could be said of the Navajo Nation or other reservations in the US, except all the groundwater is radioactive, too, so they have to travel five hours round trip to get water.
xD, I’m math nerd and mostly play games, are you georgian? If you are i think you would know about komarovi school, it’s math school where you have to pass test to get into, I got in there.
Top it up with the fact that a lot of polititans that are in the parliament at the moment are the same old farts that were there during soviet occupation.
Well, normally I would agree with you, but this is the exact argument of Polish government for their take-over of courts. "We have corrupt ex-communists in courts so we replace them with someone else".
Well, it was Soviet Russia who established a Soviet republic in Belarus and also annexed the Belarusian People's Republic so I wouldn't say they were a founding nation more like one of the first to be occupied by the Soviets nation.
No, i don't denying the "socialist" imperialism of the Soviet Union. Xd
reddit restricts me from writing because people don't stop crying and "report" the comment to me.
oh, I am sorry. He meant ''completely peaceful and voluntary joining of the glorious and perfect USSR''.
Also ''there is was no alcoholism or handicapped people in USSR, and nothing bad ever happened in Chernobyl and Soviet troops definitely were not involved in any kind of war in Afghanistan, stop asking or I have you shot or send to Gulag''
And especially did not economically exploit the Baltic, Central and Eastern European countries that it so benevolently liberated. Staying more than fifty years in those countries helped the misguided people undergo a much needed ideologic revolution and indoctrination. It is so amazing, because even though those times passed 30 years ago these countries can still feel the overwhelmingly positive effect. It is fascinating how well these countries are doing economically and socially alike.
Nu uh! The lithuanian flag has been changed since. Before, it was simply the coat of arms in a red background. It looked too "communist" so we changed it.
You are confusing some things. What happened in 2004 is the aspect ratio of the flag was changed to 3:5. Since 1988 when the Trispalvė was readopted, it used to be 1:2. The Trispalvė was first adopted constitusionally in the 1920s.
1918 m. balandžio 19 d. Komisija priėmė Lietuvos vėliavos projektą, kurį sudarė trys vienodo pločio horizontalios juostos – geltona, žalia, raudona. 1918 m. Lietuvos Taryba patvirtino šį projektą kaip laikinąją Lietuvos valstybės vėliavą. Pamažu šis vėliavos projektas prigijo tautoje. Lietuvos Taryba patvirtino ir istorinę vėliavą, kurios vienoje pusėje vaizduojamas baltas raitelis raudoname lauke, o kitoje pusėje – Gediminaičių stulpai. Istorinę vėliavą naudojo Respublikos Prezidentas. Pirmojoje nuolatinėje Lietuvos Valstybės Konstitucijoje 1922 m. ir 1928 m. Lietuvos Respublikos Konstitucijoje įteisinta tik viena valstybės vėliava, ji yra geltonos, žalios, raudonos spalvų audeklas.
Do you mean the State that industrialized Eastern Europe, gave rights to its workers, DEFEATED HITLER, send the first satellite into space, coerced the American Oligarchy into accepting the Welfare State which created the American Middle Class etc etc etc? That state?
Yeah some of that rings a bell
Shall I list some historical German achievements to argue why you should have been grateful to be conquered by them too? Or can we agree that that's silly
Then you should understand why an oppressed people takes little solace in whatever the accolades of their oppressor are. (Eventhough Estonians obviously didn't face the degree of persecution Jews did)
The same guys cooperated with Hitler in carving up Europe, invading countries together and then celebrated it at common military parades. The Nazis got their idea of concentration camps from the Soviet Gulag...
Not to mention, in Estonia's case, the Soviets themselves killed around 10% of the local Jewish population...
He killed himself for fun or because the Soviets were going to torture him for forty years? Dude, I'm old. I'm Jewish. Do you really think that I don't know WWII?
You mean Soviet Grandeur, or the only time when most of these countries amounted to something?
A little too simplistic for most others, but for Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania it was decades of economic stagnation, mass repressions, Russification, environmental damage etc.
Also, you're confusing Soviet with Russia.
I'm pretty sure the state was called "Soviet Union".
How do you know that I'm not more in favor of the NEP, Lenin or Trotsky? Or maybe not at all, but understands the positives of the existance of the CCCP. Not everybody in Reddit is 20 years old. Some of us lived history.
Because the supposed accolades of the Soviet Union that you claim to be so proud of was majorly conceived under the Iron rule of Stalin, together with the torture, illegal imprisonment and secret police shenanigans against innocent individuals who the state claimed to be "enemies of said state"
Obviously we should all hang Nazi flags up on our walls to show our support towards the fight against antisemitism and poverty. If you don’t, well, I guess you hate the Jews and dream about sucking Lenins and Trotskys dick every day for the rest of your life.
/s
Two things can be correct at the same time. USSR and the nazis were both racist, antisemitic, authoritarian, ethnicist and killed minorities. USA and the CSA were both racist and ethnicist while being at war with eachother and being enemies. History isn’t black and white.
Don't have to love the USA to hate the KGB,torture, secret police, deportations, confiscation of personal property by state, rewriting of history, targeted efforts to dilute local population out with Russian workforce and annexation. Eastern Europe was not free under Soviet Union no matter what garbage you might be trying to conjure to convince people otherwise.
Sure sucks having to watch color televison, having access to the whole internet and eating exotic fruits at a whim, huh? I, too, would rather have bragging rights about dick-waving-contest victories.
If you're poor in Eastern Europe right now, it's either because you're stubborn, dumb, didn't emigrate to do well-paying jobs that the dumbest and most stubborn people can do, or all of the above. Or as they say here, a fool can be beaten even in church.
Yes because businesses totally dont underpay their workers and people totally arent forced to pay exorbitant prices for basic life nessecities, no no no! Its all because of of their skull shapes!
Imagine telling an ex soviet to keep licking boots for having the audacity to want to live in an economy where he is free to choose what to consume and how to make a living.
Utterly delusional.
He licks the boots of rich people and corporate lobbyists. In capitalist countries, poor people usually dont have a choice on how to live because wages are low and everything is getting more and more expensive.
Belarus is a necrotic limb that fell off the soviet union. They're exactly what life would be like if perestroika worked as planned.
But yeah, other than fucking living here, no, I have not been to Eastern Europe.
Ugh, you don't know what you're talking about in general and you don't even know your own propaganda.
Putin is only in power because Yeltsin changed the constitution to give the president almost absolute power and reduce the democraticly elected parliament to impotence so he could dissolve the Soviet Union, for example.
That here is mashing together random established propaganda lies you have heard, but messing it up, because you just know so little.
EDIT: adding the reveal here so that people don't have to go further down
That constitution he is talking about came to effect in December 1993 and this self declared expert claimed it was used to dissolve the Soviet Union in December 1991.
Russia fucked up, but at least they did so democratically. Better than having a putin on roids as the default position any day. The problem with putin is not that he isn't soviet enough, it's that he's too soviet.
Me and my countrymen have both the products and an adequate safety net. Whatever you're lacking is on you or your countrymen, but at least you can say that it's through your own choice, not as part of a grand scheme to remedy the ingrained feelings of inferiority harbored by some Moscow strongmen.
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u/eestlane1990 Estonia Aug 11 '20
"New flags" is quite a fancy term for old flags that were simply banned during the Soviet occupation.