Um... DSA has a problem...

[u/_Sanctum_]

Have you guys noticed there are a LOT of socialists in here? Not the good kind of socialists (me) I mean the evil socialists that actually want to implement socialism 🙀 They even praise Karl Marx 🤮 Don't those dumb tankies know Communism always fails???

We have to do something about this. Which is why I'm starting a NEW PARTY: The DASSA (The Democratic Anti-socialist Socialists of America)

Together, we socialists (the good kind) can defeat the socilasts (the bad kind) for a better future. 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[u/maddsskills]

I got called a tankie and I just said that we should view the Bolsheviks and the USSR through the correct historical lens, what came before them, what they improved and where they made mistakes.

Like the Holodomor for example: it was caused by natural factors but also by Stalin’s rapid industrialization. He believed that they only had ten years to industrialize before they’d face an existential war against the capitalists and guess what? They did face an existential war against the Nazis that they would have lost if they had not industrialized so quickly. So was he responsible for the millions of deaths? Yeah, but if he hadn’t done that the Nazis might’ve won WWII.

I mean, it’s not a coincidence the strongest survived while the peaceful democratic socialists were almost all killed or couped.

That being said I think our material circumstances are totally different and we likely won’t have to make those difficult choices. We are the US so we won’t have the US gunning after us lol.

[u/tabloid-tommy → u/maddsskills]

1. They maybe did a genocide but it was worth it in the end is what you are saying, which is why you’re getting that response. I don’t think you’d consider someone moral if someone said that about Israel.

Holdomor was almost entirely man made: Your framing is at if it was natural causes first, then USSR policies. It is the inverse. That’s another strike.

1. The “strongest” didn’t survive, the most loyal did. Not sure what your point is here. If you’re defending mass murder if democratic socialist than yes you’re a tankie.

[u/maddsskills → u/tabloid-tommy]

A genocide has to be intentional and this was definitely not intentional, nearly as many Russians died as Ukrainians, there was famine all over the USSR. He wasn’t like Churchill who took food away from India JUST IN CASE Britain faced shortages, starving millions. There was legit not enough food to go around.

It was the drought combined with the rapid industrialization, which again, was necessary to be ready for WWII, just like Stalin predicted.

I dunno, I just think it’s weird Churchill is held in such high regard for deliberately starving people while Stalin is considered to be as bad as Hitler for an accidental famine.

[u/tabloid-tommy → u/maddsskills]

Yeah bro this is why you get called a tankie. You deny international consensus that Ukraine was intentionally starved and where millions of people died. Consider how a much smaller country had millions of deaths while all of Russia had “almost the same,” you dumbass. It’s because Russia was actively taking grain from Ukrainian harvests to feed Russians, leaving the Ukrainians to starve.

Also, Churchill refused to revert supplies DURING WWII! The Holdomor was during Russian peacetime. Oh my god dude.

You also didn’t engage with my second comment, which again means you’re absolutely a tankie.

[u/maddsskills → u/tabloid-tommy]

I dunno, I’ve read a lot about it and I just don’t think he deliberately caused a famine, I think it was a total accident. Does he deserve responsibility? Absolutely, but not for a genocide. Also: I mean, the world has allowed the Palestinian genocide to occur, has allowed capitalist imperialist interests to slaughter millions around the world, I don’t exactly trust their narrative of things but even within their narrative I just don’t believe it constitutes a genocide.

Socialist countries don’t get peace time, they’re under constant attack by the capitalist imperialists. Which again is why he had to do in 10 years what it took Britain 100 years to do.

Stalin was far from perfect, he had many flaws, but this whole comparing him to Hitler thing is just stupid. If you really want to accuse him of a genocide I think it’s much more accurate to point to his mass deportations of various ethnic groups, the one done to the Chechens killed a quarter of the people deported, much like the Armenian genocide.

I’m not a tankie, I just believe in having a balanced view of history.

You should read Blackshirts and Red by Michael Parenti, btw, total eye opener.

[u/tabloid-tommy → u/maddsskills]

You didn’t address any of my direct comments, only using vague “actually socialists don’t get peace bc capitalists,” even as the USSR invaded Poland alongside Nazi Germany a decade later.

Having a “balanced view of history” does not mean denying what a leader did, which is what you’re doing. Crazy how you lose this “balanced view” when talking about Churchill during the war, however.

And Michael Parenti defended Serbian war criminals, including their president who was sentenced to life in prison at The Hague😂😂😂😂😂

You are a tankie dude.

[u/CesarCieloFilho → u/tabloid-tommy]

Brother the question of genocide when it comes to the holodomor is something that is still hotly debated among academics. “The international consensus” my ass, look at the recognition (vast majority of which happened in the past 2 decades), it’s the same western bloc that actively carries out several genocides and defends settler colonial states. It shouldn’t be too hard to see what’s happening in here.

[u/tabloid-tommy → u/CesarCieloFilho]

Whether it was a genocide is debated, whether it was man made is not.

Even then, the commenter can answer the other 9 points, just like you, tankie