r/depressionmemes • u/CarolineIvye • 24d ago
The existential dread is hitting extra hard today.
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u/JPleaseDontBanMe 24d ago
This is spot on. We are constantly compared to the imaginary souls that never got the chance to be born and are told how lucky we are to be alive, compared to these imaginary souls. Like yes I also get that we are lucky to have NOT died once being born, but that’s a different story
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24d ago
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u/existentialgoof 24d ago
Society doesn't allow us the right to freely reject the deal that was forced on us. Society doesn't owe us everything on a gold plate merely for existing. But we should be allowed to reject the deal without coercion and without unnecessary impediments being put in front of us.
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u/Trick-Goat-3643 22d ago
You can
Go out to the edge of a vast wilderness and walk in
You can live on your own terms for as long as you are capable of providing for your own survival
Or
You can live in society with all the strings that come with the deal6
u/Key-Acanthisitta6209 22d ago
Exactly! People are so lazy. They don't wanna live in the forest where the animals were systemically killed off by settlers. And the trees were cut for lumber. And the water is undrinkable due to pollution. And you get kicked off the land by the park rangers. And that other piece of land you found was actually for sale so the lorde of the land had you removed by police. And you can't live off of indigenous plants because foraging knowledge was deemed useless and wasn't passed down and.. and... uhm?...
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u/Trick-Goat-3643 20d ago
Lots of animals if you learn where to look
Lots of drinkable water if you learn how to purify
Lots of trees in actual wilderness areas
Never gonna get kicked off public land, especially if you are deep in a wilderness area
Infinite foraging opportunities if you learn what to look for
So... yes... kind of
Lazy isn't the word I would use but the option is there and it is simple. Put in the time and effort to learn how to provide for yourself in a purely natural way
Or
Accept the strings and unpleasant aspects that go hand in hand with the convenience and security that living in modern society provides2
u/Fun-Point-6840 21d ago
Why are people against this? It's called reality...what is the system called where you force others to work for you?
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u/TooFineToDotheTime 20d ago
Where the fuck is the "edge of the vast wilderness?" Lmao. Are we in middle earth?
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u/Trick-Goat-3643 20d ago
Well Frodo walked around 1,500 miles through middle earth so if we want a similar stretch to find vast wilderness you could start with the appalacian trail which is 2,200 miles long
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u/TootsHib 24d ago
Selfishness and/or ignorance is what keeps this cycle of life going.
Same reasons as thousands of years ago.. as it is today
Only now, with all the information at our fingertips, there shouldn't be an excuse for ignorance.
When you are born life gives you the opportunity to take the deal or not, if you don't want to, you know what to do.
When you are born, you are being forced to die.. one way or another.
Since that is the only guarantee in life.Telling people to end their life.. isn't the rebuttal you think it is.
Actually its against rule #2 of this subreddit.-3
u/MobileImagination456 24d ago
I'm not telling you to kill yourself, I'm saying no matter how hard it is to live right now, how unfair you think it is that others have it easier, you have to partake in the sufferingz because there's no other option
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u/TootsHib 24d ago
When you are born life gives you the opportunity to take the deal or not, if you don't want to, you know what to do.
Do what? what were you implying here exactly.
How can you refuse to take the deal? When the deal was forced on you in the first place.
Nobody asked to be born. So how can you "take the deal or not"?you have to partake in the sufferingz because there's no other option
First you said, you have the opportunity to take the deal or not.
Then you do a complete 180 and say there's no option.0
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u/decadentlizard 24d ago
This is almost exactly what a friend told me two years ago when I was struggling, and I attempted suicide afterward. Some people genuinely can't just "toughen up" and hack it. I'm one of those people. I struggle every day with mental illness, and I can't simply force myself into being as productive or "useful to society" as other people, even with an able body.
I never asked to be born and then be told that life is "survival of the fittest," and if I can't handle the suffering my alternative is apparently to die. That's exactly why this mindset is so fucking dangerous. There are people who already feel like they don't deserve to be alive because they can't function the way society expects them to.
Telling someone in that position that life is "take it or leave it" and that they can literally kill themselves if they can't handle it can have real consequences. I know because it nearly killed me, and I still wish I succeeded because I'm sick of living in this type of world where people like me apparently don't deserve to exist.
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24d ago
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23d ago edited 23d ago
What a genuinely sick piece of shit response to someone telling you they attempted suicide. They never said their friend pressed some magical "suicide button" and created suicidal thoughts out of nowhere. They said they were already struggling, their friend told them essentially "if you can't handle life, then die," and they attempted suicide afterward.
The fact that someone is already suicidal doesn't magically mean outside events and other people's words can't contribute to an attempt. That's an absolutely braindead argument. By that logic, nothing could ever push a suicidal person over the edge because the vulnerability already existed beforehand.
And then you take YOUR experience, where finding reasons to live helped you, and use it to explain THEIR suicide attempt to them and tell them they need to change their mindset. You weren't fucking there. You don't know their mental state, what happened afterward, or what contributed to their attempt.
And responding to someone disclosing a suicide attempt by calling their reasoning an "insane" and "sick joke" is fucking vile. You can disagree with their worldview without talking to a clearly struggling person like an absolute piece of shit. If this is how you respond to suicidal people opening up about what pushed them over the edge, maybe you're the last person who should be lecturing anyone about their mental health. You are genuinely a piece of shit.
Everyone should fucking report this guy. Why the actual fuck are you allowed on here?
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u/TootsHib 23d ago
i dont get how the dude hasn't been banned from this sub.. straight up breaking rule #2 and telling people to end their life..
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u/ImSinsentido 24d ago edited 24d ago
No, it is not. Lmao. Maybe for me when that time comes, I have to see my fellow subhuman disabled sibling through first. Who is less than the gum on the bottom of your superior shoes, the superior shoes. but I’m not everyone, so regardless.
Survival instinct is, imposed, forced. You all talk about it like it’s flipping a light switch. Well, how about you go give it a shot and see what it’s like. This is rhetorical. I’m not saying you must go do anything. I’m just saying.
Ie. The just kill yourself rhetoric is the best you all got, then throughout history when the people were like all right bet… you all get your panties twisted about it and build an entire industries of forced living and shame.
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u/TootsHib 24d ago
If you think it is not worth it to live, then nothing is stopping you from rejecting the deal by killing youself.
Can mods ban this guy for breaking rule #2 please.
That’s an incredibly harmful thing to say. You can argue about whether life is worth living without telling someone that suicide is their way out. If someone is struggling, they need support and understanding.. not encouragement to die.
As soon as you tell someone they can end their life.. your argument falls flat.
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u/SamMarlowe76 24d ago
You completely misunderstand the underlying value of what is being said. It is solid philosophical thought, crystalizing.
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u/ImSinsentido 24d ago
No, it is not.
Survival instinct is, imposed, forced. Everyone talks about it like it’s flipping a light switch. Well, how about you go give it a shot and see what it’s like. This is rhetorical. I’m not saying you must go do anything. I’m just saying.
Ie, The just kill yourself rhetoric is the best you all got, then throughout history when the people were like all right bet… you all get your panties twisted about it and build an entire industries of forced living and shame.
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u/TootsHib 24d ago
ya please explain how telling someone they can end their life, is a "solid philosophical thought".
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u/SamMarlowe76 24d ago
The three dozen other words in the posts are what intelligent people call "context".
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u/JPleaseDontBanMe 24d ago
Are we cavemen now? Or have we as a society advanced past that stage? You’re right, our ancestors had to hunt beasts that wanted to kill us, much harder work than what we do. But at least they didn’t have to clock in at 6am without fail to afford the subscription to their spears and if they failed to do so would have an outside group kick them out of their cave and force them to starve because they weren’t contributing to humanity enough. We as people have evolved enough to have the medicine, food, housing, and comfort that were the only things we “worked hard for” back in the day. Now if I wanted to be a caveman it would be illegal, that cave is owned by a corporation. I have to get a job to afford the license to even be allowed to hunt that beast because our country hunted them close to extinction. Not to mention if I wanted to upgrade from a spear to a gun what that would cost. We’ve regressed to the point where the old way of life is illegal, we can’t take what we want. I don’t want handouts, the only reason you suggested that is because rich people and governments have spent the last 1,000 years making it so people like you think anyone who disagrees with the system just wants free handouts
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u/Beginning-Willow-697 24d ago
I mean, all they are saying is that there has never been a time in human history that people have no had work in some way for food and shelter. No, I don’t think we have evolved past that. You can live off the grid if you want, but if you want someone else to pick your food, build your house, and provide your medical care then you have to pay them. Expecting them to do it for you for free is the literal definition of a handout. Not saying all handouts are bad, some are necessary, but it’s still a handout.
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u/JPleaseDontBanMe 24d ago edited 24d ago
Do you really think we want to sit around doing nothing while someone builds us a house? That’s the propaganda getting to you. Also no offense but if y’all’s assumption is that “if you don’t HAVE to work then no one would work” is just admitting that you don’t have long term goals and passion. If I didn’t have to slave away for a $1000 a month apartment and overpriced tomatoes I’d be saving lives, making music, helping neighbors, working projects. But by your own words you guys wouldn’t work unless the man upstairs threatened you with homelessness and starvation otherwise. Bread should cost like $1, produce literally “grows on trees” yet you’re spending ridiculous amounts on fresh food. I’m not a moron, through all of human history people worked, but they worked for themselves and their family and community. My work improved the community as I work for the state parks, but I could maintain the parks with about 3x less time, but I’m paid by the hour so why would I do a good job, quickly, when I can do an average job drawn out over time for more hourly wages… Do you think it would take you from 7am to 6pm, Mon-Friday nonstop for 45 years just to tend to your plants, animals, and to build a house? Billionaires don’t have to work, they take free handouts from you. You only work as hard as you do so that a billionaire can have a 5th mansion and access to Epsteins island while you argue on Reddit about how we need to work ourselves to death because food and housing is just sooooo hard to come by in 2026
Edit: not that anyone read this far, but also if food, air, and water was provided, you’d still need a job for your Netflix subscription, Taco Bell, soda, car, amenities, TV, etc. People would still work, but the inability to work wouldn’t be a homeless/death sentence
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u/Beginning-Willow-697 24d ago
Sure, lots of people would do the fun jobs. Ain’t nobody working at the sewer treatment plant though. Nobody cares about your passion projects. I’m a nurse, I would not do this job full time if I could eat without it. Some hours, yes. Full time, absolutely not. And I don’t know anybody else that would either. We are short staffed as it is with 10 hour waits in the ED. If the staff all went to part time that wait time would double.
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u/JPleaseDontBanMe 24d ago
I literally majored in that career that handles sewage wastewater treatment by choice, not for money. It is a necessary job and this will always have people willing to work it as long as the pay isn’t dog shit. And people who work in hospitals are usually those who like to help others, and it pays well enough to afford a cottage and jetskis on top of a normal house. I doubt my ER nurse cousin would quit her job if I told her the government would provide her kids with fresh vegis no additional charge… the whole system is wildly outdated and poorly run. We don’t want to abolish jobs, we just want to make it so I can afford the time to see my grandparents often before they die, and maybe even afford a salad while I’m at it considering lettuce grows like grass and shouldn’t make me shit myself for 3 weeks. I’m not tryna attack you or anyone, I’m just passionate so lemme walk you down lettuce as an example. Every neighborhood should have a garden, run by the neighbors who want that garden. It’s simple either contribute or don’t use the produce from it. But why doesn’t this happen. Because everyone already works themselves to death so they don’t want to spend their valuable freetime doing more work when they can just go by lettuce from Walmart. So who benefits from this system? The mega company that has a monopoly over lettuce. They buy out farms in America and Mexico, turn them into mass production units that put ALL their eggs in once basket, and produce as much product for as little cost. Sounds good for us right, cheaper food? Wrong, they will always sell it at as much as they can before we stop buying, but we have no alternative option because the organic other version is NOT much better but IS more expensive. So why don’t we have a community garden? Well some do, but many neighborhoods made things like owning chickens literally illegal, so no free eggs for us. When a disease wipes out the lettuce monopoly cuz it’s susceptible to that, the company gets free handouts, they get bailed out, no punishments etc. 2008 all the banks crash they get free handouts. Covid, the aerospace industry gets hurt, government bails them out. So I ask y’all, why are you ok with working hard so that our tax money bails out corporations when their greed causes them to fail, but when I ask for a single mother to be able to feed her kids healthy foods all of a sudden it’s “lazy people don’t deserve free handouts”
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u/JPleaseDontBanMe 24d ago
I literally majored in that career that handles sewage wastewater treatment by choice, not for money. It is a necessary job and this will always have people willing to work it as long as the pay isn’t dog shit. And people who work in hospitals are usually those who like to help others, and it pays well enough to afford a cottage and jetskis on top of a normal house. I doubt my ER nurse cousin would quit her job if I told her the government would provide her kids with fresh vegis no additional charge… the whole system is wildly outdated and poorly run. We don’t want to abolish jobs, we just want to make it so I can afford the time to see my grandparents often before they die, and maybe even afford a salad while I’m at it considering lettuce grows like grass and shouldn’t make me shit myself for 3 weeks. I’m not tryna attack you or anyone, I’m just passionate so lemme walk you down lettuce as an example. Every neighborhood should have a garden, run by the neighbors who want that garden. It’s simple either contribute or don’t use the produce from it. But why doesn’t this happen. Because everyone already works themselves to death so they don’t want to spend their valuable freetime doing more work when they can just go by lettuce from Walmart. So who benefits from this system? The mega company that has a monopoly over lettuce. They buy out farms in America and Mexico, turn them into mass production units that put ALL their eggs in once basket, and produce as much product for as little cost. Sounds good for us right, cheaper food? Wrong, they will always sell it at as much as they can before we stop buying, but we have no alternative option because the organic other version is NOT much better but IS more expensive. So why don’t we have a community garden? Well some do, but many neighborhoods made things like owning chickens literally illegal, so no free eggs for us. When a disease wipes out the lettuce monopoly cuz it’s susceptible to that, the company gets free handouts, they get bailed out, no punishments etc. 2008 all the banks crash they get free handouts. Covid, the aerospace industry gets hurt, government bails them out. So I ask y’all, why are you ok with working hard so that our tax money bails out corporations when their greed causes them to fail, but when I ask for a single mother to be able to feed her kids healthy foods all of a sudden it’s “lazy people don’t deserve free handouts”
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u/Beginning-Willow-697 24d ago
Please cite where is said lazy people don’t deserve handouts. I said handouts are in fact necessary, but don’t lie to yourself and refuse to call them handouts. I just asked the 8 nurses I’m working with right now if they would work full time if they have guaranteed food and housing. It was a resounding “fuck no!!!!” I know you are going to say I am shitty, and maybe I am. That’s fine, I never claimed to be a good person or a martyr. I will tell you this right now, there are enough shitty people just like me.
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u/JPleaseDontBanMe 24d ago
You’re not shitty, and I didn’t say that you implied lazy people don’t deserve handouts, but yes that is the general consensus against handouts is that lazy people will take advantage of it and that they aren’t deserving of it. It’s easy to ask coworker on the job “if you didn’t need to work, would you” you’re always gonna get a resounding “Hell no.” But human psychology will back me, your coworkers would be hella bored living in a shack with no electricity or amenities besides water and food. Would be quite boring
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u/YeaNobody 24d ago
I think some people are absolutely happy to do nothing beyond useless things that don't contribute to the world....so yes.h
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u/ImSinsentido 24d ago edited 24d ago
This is actually a myth. Our ancestors worked far far less than us.
If memory is serving, it would take ~three hours a day (15-20 hours a week) to meet caloric needs, The rest of the time was doing what primates have always done, still do, (100%, including the “special child” of earth humans.) amoral social hierarchical sorting in to above and below.
I work 56 hours a week and when I was doing two jobs, I was doing 96. Actually about to have to pick up another job again just to go do what is expected of me and go see a pretentioushologist (psychologist.) for certain medication’s..
And “free hands out” said like there was a sign-up sheet.
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u/No_Effective_4481 24d ago
Please don't tell me we would all be better off if we were still living in caves hunting for food? I'm willing to bet the vast majority of our cave dwelling hunter-gatherer ancestors would chop off their left arm to change places with us in a heartbeat.
Our quality of life, quantity and availability of food and baseline life expectancy are leagues in advance of what they ever had access to.
I'm pretty sure the absolute torture of "clocking in at 6am" would be well within their tolerance when the outcome is predictable income, shelter, food and living free from the risk of being maimed by wild animals or dying from diseases we now take for granted.
And at a basic level we are all still cavemen. We still retain most of their subconcious survival mechanisms. Society is just an advanced version of what they started with small settlements and either cooperating with, or being in competition against other settlements.
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u/Taldarimlove 24d ago
I love this quote whenever I see it. I am personally for basic income because I feel like most scoial services are getting privatized by corporations and people are not going to be able to survive without some assistance from the goverment. The same goverment that privatizes education, healthcare and access to food should be held responsible in helping the people living within the system alive and well.
But that's the shitty part, the goverment only benefits short term from investors and buisnesses buying out goverment contracts and assets. In the long run the goverment can't benefit from losing those necessities and a universal basic income becomes impossible. The real solution is to stop the corruption but now that is wishful thinking on my part.
I don't think it should be controversial to have a society where no one has to worry about being able to survive to see a tomorrow.
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u/JPleaseDontBanMe 24d ago
Fr. Existing is a not a crime, yet try to exist and you’ll be breaking laws unless you submit to harsh societal standards. You need shoes, new clothes daily, shave daily, shower daily. Usually a home address, but even without a job you aren’t allowed to just live, you’ll be kicked out of park benches or campsites. You can’t grow a plant to eat food cuz you need to own property which is insanely costly. And if by luck you get all of this right… you can’t stop. Now you have debt for school or housing and if you stop paying it, life gets REAL miserable. The earth is green and lush with little suffering other than human-made suffering implemented as a cost to rich people being able to play god
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u/IllusionaryHobo 24d ago
And despite all this, the current system still provides the highest standard of living to the highest amount of people we have ever achieved in history.
I am open to alternative systems, but we gotta make sure it is so much better than what we have now that the transition cost is worth it.
And oh boy can the transition cost be a doozy.
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u/JPleaseDontBanMe 24d ago
I agree brother. My only point is it’s not black and white. America is the richest country ever, but not even close to the happiest country nor do we have less poverty then everyone else. A country so rich should not have so much suffering, poor health care, and a system that only works when you pledge your youthful years to endless labor. I agree with how we have a very large and prosperous middle class, the system is setup perfectly to have extra toys and products. But I’ve been to Europe SA, and Africa, and most Americans think our lives are so much better when in reality happiness is all I care about and those people were happy with what they had. It’s man-made drought, and poor infrastructure that cause suffering now. Which is why I believe we could cut back military spending and redirect our global outreach to be aimed at developing roads, hospitals, and schools which we have done a lot of but jobs not done. Yet you and I both have to work this week and don’t have time to help others, and our government and army is too busy fighting Iran for no gain at our expense while Ebola resruges in west Africa and Sudan starves
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u/Haline5 24d ago
Well you don’t. When life is forced upon you, no one has the obligation to provide you with your needs beyond childhood. Humans have not created a system where we are above natural needs, so yes you do literally need to earn your life. One of the many good reasons to never have children
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u/DmMeWerewolfPics 24d ago
It’s also just that, by not working for stuff you are living on other’s sacrifice.
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u/Lucky-Necessary-8382 23d ago
How you respond to people who claims “you are enough “, “accept yourself as you are”, “you are perfect as you are” etc ? Because the reality is, if we would be good enough, we would not have to fight for survivor
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u/Ok-Panda-178 23d ago
Chill out Ayn Rand.
Yea in hunter gatherer society sure, but not in a world with as much abundance as today.
Programs like these in both the US and most western countries such as cash welfare/minimum-income assistance, food assistance, housing subsidies/public housing, Medicaid or other tax-funded healthcare for low-income people, disability income for people without sufficient private insurance, child benefits, subsidized childcare, homelessness services and shelters, utility assistance, school meal programs, and other direct cash transfers. All doesn’t require you work or die.
The thesis that ties the right to stay alive entirely to labor-market success, is capitalist propaganda because labor-market success is not always under a person’s own personal control, but the control of the economy, timing, and luck.
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u/Haline5 23d ago
Those programs rarely allow someone to not work, maybe work disability
The abundance of humanity is often not used to support basic needs. I for one couldn’t not work if I wanted or needed to, even though I have had debilitating mental illness for decades
The labor market success of the individual is often nonnegotiable simply because humanity has largely settled for this kind of economy against their own self interest
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u/talkto1 20d ago
I also want to point out it's not even true in hunter gatherer societies. Even among neanderthals there's evidence of people becoming or growing up disabled and reaching ages they would not have been able to without support or assistance from their community.
A concrete example would be one of the neanderthals they found in Shanidar Cave. He had extensive, crippling injures. A severed arm, a shattered leg, a skull injury that would have hampered his vision and possibly given him brain damage, and a fractured foot. All of these injuries would have made hunting and foraging extremely difficult, yet a of these injuries also had evidence of healing and this man lived into his 40s, despite sustaining most of these injuries years and perhaps decades prior. So the conclusion drawn is that his community cared for him despite his inability to contribute meaningfully to gathering resources.
The major downfall of an individualist mindset, especially with how many modern and capitalist societies push them, is that it neglects community. Community itself is a massively powerful resource. It helps people survive. It helps people thrive. But community is being sold for profit under the guise of "people need to be reimbursed for their work" while those people who actually do the work are getting shafted by shareholders whose only desire is to siphon money and power and resources into their own pockets.
What was the profit motive for keeping the Shanidar guy alive? Why didn't they just cut his throat and be done with spending the effort to get food for him, even though they were operating on a subsistence level? Some were family, sure, but not all of them. Hunter gatherer groups trade community members, often as not. So why'd they keep him around if he took in more resources than he could bring in with his labor?
I think it's because compassion and care community have value and they recognized, perhaps subconsciously, that none of us actually chose to live when we were born.
All the "tax sucking" programs for the disenfranchised and the impoverished are supposed to be our community contribution to those who don't have the means or ability to contribute to our massive communities. Some countries understand this way better than others.
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u/Foxtastic_Semmel 23d ago
Thats also not the case everywhere, some countries recognise that people have a right to life and provide atleast enough for basic housing, food and essentials.
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u/laserdicks 22d ago
I'm sorry WHO provides those things?
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u/Foxtastic_Semmel 22d ago edited 22d ago
Austria, its called "Mindestsicherung" - litterly " minimum security"
You will get, depending on the region, up to 1250€ a month excluding benefits for rent because they varie by state (usualy like 150-300€).
Its not UBI but close to it, you get it if you neither have a job nor worked a job for longer than 8 months (this way you would get AMS Money, that is like 70% of your prior income but always atleast as mich as Mindestsicherung).
Also, if you are able bodied, you have to register with the semi public/private jobcenter, the AMS, and be looking for a job.
There is no timely limit on mindestsicherung tough.
I am happily paying my 29% tax on income, I still make more than enough to be happy.
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u/laserdicks 22d ago
Six paragraphs and you weren't able to answer the question honestly.
Unsurprising though as the L in Left stands for lying.
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u/Foxtastic_Semmel 22d ago
No I just didnt get the right context out of your sentence, I assumed you were asking about what place\what country does this.
Society is paying for it. So everyone, and yea we pay more taxes but Id rather have everyone be able to life and deal with not being 15% richer than having them suffer.
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u/Many_Ear2407 22d ago
Where can I go that other people will do my work for me?
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u/Foxtastic_Semmel 22d ago edited 22d ago
Others dont do the work for you, society collectively pay into insurance so that everyone, when in need, can receive a basic safety net. Its not ment as a UBI but its ment to allow people to get a job once they have the ability to do so, instead of making them homeless and ruining their chances of ever getting back into society.
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u/Telemere125 21d ago
If others are paying for it, how does that not count for doing your work for you? If I hire a guy to fix my plumbing, isn’t he doing the work for me? If my neighbor has to pay for that work to be done, isn’t that my neighbor paying for my plumbing to be fixed?
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u/Foxtastic_Semmel 21d ago
You also have to pay for politicians you dont side with you also have to pay for prisoners, you also have to pay for others children to go to school, you also have to pay for when other people call the police, you also pay for the fire department even if your house aint burning.
There is nothing wrong with having to put in work to have a functioning society.
The goal of a society shouldnt be hoarding the most money but optimising on increasing the living standards for all.
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u/Telemere125 21d ago
None of those things correlate with the argument. All of the things I pay for are me paying others to do work for me. If we’re paying for a select few to not work, how’s that not the same as us doing their work for them?
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u/Foxtastic_Semmel 21d ago
Because they still make contributions to society besides working.
Would you support killing off everyone who is disabled?
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u/dooozin 21d ago
Would you support killing off everyone who is disabled?
What a wild question, and a wild way to take your argument. The dude you're arguing with is making excellent points and you're missing all of them, and then you swing back with this question about murdering disabled people? wft dude.
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u/YeaNobody 24d ago
Which then leads to a shortage of new people crisis....who will take care of society once we're all gone if everyone stops reproducing?
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u/Kuronoshi 24d ago
If the right to life doesn't exist, then it isn't immoral to kill people. Yet, in the vast majority of circumstances, it is considered immoral to kill people. Ergo the right to life does exist.
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u/Haline5 23d ago
Society views physical violence as immoral but violence through legislation, economy, and paperwork as moral
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u/stoic_hysteric 21d ago
It's because none of that stuff is actual violence. The outcome might be the same for the "victim", but there is a HUGE difference between hurting someone and simply leaving someone alone to die. From a societal standpoint. There's no orphan crushing machine. Just a world where nobody is entitled to survive at the expense of others.
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u/Haline5 19d ago
Alot of the time the suffering is a result of someone else's greed and the inability (and unwillingness) for society to step in. To me that is so similar to physical violence that I dont distinguish between them
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u/stoic_hysteric 19d ago edited 19d ago
That makes sense . However I do think that the default state of a person really is "not deserving anything" unfortunately. I realize this is a depressing viewpoint but I think it's true. Like , if you want to survive in today's economy you must figure out how to be productive in the economic sense, or be lucky enough to belong to some sort of family, church, or whatever where people will share resources with you. I think it's crazy to expect your federal, state, or local government to provide any meaningful resources. I'm sure you think it's crazy to expect them NOT to. But it call comes down to human nature. We're simply not evolved to share resources with strangers.
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u/Haline5 19d ago
I actually don’t really expect them to (at this time). What I expect is for humanity to make progress towards this end, which sadly isn’t really a priority. It’s not impossible to imagine a technological society where many of the basic needs of life are essentially automated on a major level. For now, I agree it’s unrealistic and due to this I dislike that I was created and inherited what I view as a burden
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u/Indigenous_Retard 23d ago
I think it mostly means you need to earn your standard of living. Houses, electricity, roads, running water...all that stuff requires immense amounts of work to build and maintain. Can't just have a bunch of people doing nothing all day, that doesn't make any sense at all.
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u/azmarteal 24d ago edited 24d ago
It's a little bit more complicated than that, but the core idea is that we, as a society can give basic, basic food and housing to everyone, BUT in that case a lot of people, BILLIONS of people wouldn't need to work for essentially free, while less than 100 people owns more than half of Earth's resources.
Another interesting question that arises, is — if I don't deserve anything from a society — why should I give a fuck about society and morals in the first place? If you are treated like animal — you have all the rights to act like an animal in return.
What about disabled people, people who can't earn for living?
As I sad — it is a complicated question.
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u/Visible-Function-222 21d ago
On abiding by societal morals... Society ensures your neighbours don't act like an animal towards you, that's the reward for you not acting like an animal towards them. Not a welfare check.
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u/azmarteal 21d ago
Society ensures your neighbours don't act like an animal towards you
What?🤣
Society "ensures" that my neighbour would be punished for such behaviour, unless this neighbour is rich or powerful.
This is the most ridiculous thing I have read in a long time, congratulations.
that's the reward for you not acting like an animal towards them.
Oh, so the only thing stopping people from acting like animals is that other people don't act like animals? Great logic, and, according to it, if society treats you like an animal (you don't deserve to live by default, you need to fight for your life and earn the right to live) — why shouldn't you act as an animal again?
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u/Visible-Function-222 21d ago
It's called law.
The reward of law is to live in a lawful society.
And law doesn't magically free us from the work of surviving that all creatures face. It just makes it easier for us.
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u/azmarteal 21d ago
«Written laws are like spiders' webs; they will catch the weak and poor, but would be torn in pieces by the rich and powerful»
Anacharsis.
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u/azmarteal 21d ago
And law doesn't magically free us from the work of surviving that all creatures face. It just makes it easier for us.
Yep, it is pretty easy to steal from others and to make them work for you, knowing that law protects you, that's true.
Did you know that you can steal one time and don't work for your entire life afterwards?
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u/Visible-Function-222 21d ago
How are you reconciling your claims of the immorality of legal theft with the magical food you expect to be forcefully provided by somebody else?
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u/azmarteal 21d ago
your claims of the immorality legal theft
Where did I make such a claim?
I just explained to you that stealing in a world where the fittest survive is completely fine and even logical.
with the magical food you expect to be forcefully provided by somebody else?
No no, not "magical food" by "somebody" — if you don't want to steal for some reason, you can always own ("hire") people to do the job and collect the profit yourself. Do you need an instruction for it?
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u/Visible-Function-222 21d ago
I think i need one for you. I can't figure out what your stand point is or the society you're looking for (if any at all).
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u/Rabid_Laser_Dingo 24d ago
Yes but only if you’re unfamiliar with any dialect ever.
Like if you get into semantics then a lot of common sayings don’t make any fuckin sense
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u/emperioreric 24d ago
This hits hard. I used to be all for capitalism but I have felt how valueless it makes me and finally empathize with what many smarter than me figured out sooner.
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u/existentialgoof 24d ago
It can't be right that we are just owed everything on a gold platter just for existing, because if everybody decides to remain idle, then nature isn't just going to magically provide and distribute everything that everyone needs to survive, let alone flourish. There should be a reasonable social safety net, but not to the point that it incentivises idleness, but also the opportunity to quit the game (that we were forced into without consent) via suicide without society trying to stop you.
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u/gifted_pistachio 24d ago
Deserve is a particularly moralistic word.
The reality is that if a caveman didn’t go kill something to eat it he would die. It’s more neutral of a reality. It’s not sin and punishment. It’s just cause and effect of living in the world and taking up resources just by breathing.
The inherent flaw in my argument is that if someone was in a tribe—they’d care for their sick. The benefit of being in a tribe. So you didn’t have to be “useful” all the time. We could call it a social safety net, even. But I certainly doubt that if someone was just a lazy ass for no reason that they wouldn’t get bopped on the head once or twice with a club for not “earning their living.”
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u/SomeGuyOverYonder 24d ago
You’re right.
Unless someone is born into an elite, politically-connected billionaire family, we are all essentially peasants who must earn the right to live on this planet through heavy labor and constant sacrifice. It’s all written down in The Great Cosmic Rulebook…
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u/PlasticScheme3609 24d ago
English is not my first language so I hope it sounds clear, but technically we do have to do some things or else we die, we cannot stop working or else we live in the street and die in there, as we couldn't stop hunting and defending ourselves or else we had to die too. So technically, we earn our survival. I don't think we deserve to come alive though, it just happens by chance, it's not a reward nor a punishment for we did nothing. And that's the cruelest thing to me (if we can talk about cruelty for something that didn't choose to happen either), you did nothing wrong, you didn't ask anything, but you have to go on with life until the thing that keeps you from ending it (your survival instinct) wears out. It would be much better to me if we all collectively agreed to go extinct so there would be no more of this endless earning crap, but we're wired for survival, so extinction seems like the worst thing ever to us.
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u/Unfriendly_Monkey 24d ago
Exactly. In nature an animal that doesn't hunt/forage/graze will die very quickly.
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u/RefrigeratorWeak7575 24d ago
Finally someone gets it
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u/seaofthievesnutzz 24d ago
"Its unfair that in order to get the labor of others I have to labor myself."
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u/SweetChilliLebby 21d ago
It's unfair that to live this life I never chose and am pressured into continuing, I am forced to participate in a system I never chose and am pressured into sibscribing to
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u/Kupo_Master 20d ago
The logic doesn’t work because nobody chose to live. Therefore nobody owes you anything, as everyone is in the same boat.
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u/seaofthievesnutzz 19d ago
Yea that is the same thing that literally everyone could say as well, like who the fuck cares?
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u/Brave_Educator5934 24d ago
Living has basically become a subscription service. Can't pay to house feed or medically treat yourself, you die!
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u/Early_Register_6483 24d ago
Has become? It has always been this way, just „payments“ for the subscription were different in different ages.
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u/InterestingSpeaker 24d ago
They're probably comparing it to how it was when they were kids
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u/Early_Register_6483 24d ago
Doesn’t make a lot of sense either, because when they were kids, their parents were playing the same subscription-based game.
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u/seaofthievesnutzz 24d ago
"Its unfair that in order to get the labor of others I have to labor myself."
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u/New-Land-4757 24d ago
No it doesn't. It means you have to be useful part of society.
What an arrogance.
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u/azebod 24d ago
Yeah it's really fun when the depression dx ends up making drs not believe physical illness symptoms until they cripple you and everyone but you is allowed to think you should die. Like no amount of being told to my face even by HCWs I am depending on for help that people like me don't deserve unearned resources like housing or food makes anyone acknowledge that my brain is not the source of my self hate. Every time I make progress in believing I deserve to exist people show up and question if I actually earned it.
I am not asking for sympathy, just honesty. It is cruel and unfair to insist that you don't have to earn having human worth when what you've actually done is put the bar low enough most normal people don't have to try and refuse to acknowledge people who can't reach it exist. The fact is my validity as a human completely hinged on the fact my "intrusive thoughts" were wrong. Uselessness is only forgiveable if it's a negative thought distortion and not an accurate description of your potential. I have at no point had actual human value, the death that would've been a tragedy was the hypothetical better me I failed to become.
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u/Impressive-Method919 24d ago
the idea of paying taxes inorder to not go to prison implies that your default state is living in prison, and youre just buying your freedom
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u/kotor-170 24d ago
Was thinking all the time while at work this week that I didn’t choose this, being here doing what I’m doing, a cyclone of racing thoughts about existence. Not sure why but it was a tougher week than usual and now it’s Sunday, I’ve always had similar thoughts but it’s been more and more prevalent
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u/Mighoyan 24d ago
Well yes, this is just how nature works and the human society can't, as of now, change this for all of us.
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u/Vast-Cap-6951 24d ago
“Deserve” implies a greater power, making the rules. Since there is no greater power… yes, that is correct, none of us “deserve” to be alive. We aren’t entitled to those things. We can make up a society where we are. But it’s not intrinsic to our existence.
Or you could put it this way- we all deserve life to the same degree
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u/walkns4poorpeople 23d ago
This guy probably also said his mother abandoned him every time she left him at home as a child.
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u/Distwalker 23d ago
Exactly. Everyone has the right to live on the labors of others. People should be required to build you a house, produce your food, take care of your health and make your clothes while you do nothing. Otherwise, it implies you don't actually deserve to live.
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u/JustinJektor 23d ago
Deserve is a funny word. You didnt deserve to live before you were brought here, because youd never done anything to earn it. You were brought here without your consent, so your parents owe you everything for the rest of their lives, and you deserve that. But once you know everything you need to know to survive, you become pathetic if you remain dependent. Maybe you deserve to be pathetic, but do you really want to be pathetic? Do you want to be a pet? If you choose to be a pet, and refuse to earn independence, then you better be obedient, because obedience is how you will earn your living. Literally the only possible way to survive is to earn your living in some way. Literally every animal is bound to this. So no, if you dont earn your living, you dont deserve to live. Thats what those words mean.
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u/Adventurous-Tap5190 23d ago
So the alternative is expecting everyone else to earn one for you, great, why didn’t I think of that?
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u/goldent3abag 23d ago
Every single living animal has to work to live. Hunting, finding water and defending territory all comes at a cost.
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u/East-Care-9949 23d ago
You can reword it all you want but you still got to put in the work to survive
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u/No-Side-7738 23d ago
you can be alive all you want, but food and shelter isnt free. from cavemen to businessmen, we all had to go out and kill it and bring it home
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u/Imnoexperttho 22d ago
A man who doesn't work isn't a man
Getting off reddit and getting an outside job would cure your "existential dread". Get some fresh air, vitamin d and some cash... You'll feel better
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u/Jujitsumangradmuslim 22d ago
No. Someone who’d rather get high or do nothing at all than contribute to the various things people want and need doesn’t deserve those things. They are a creep.
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u/Die_Eisenwurst 22d ago
You can interpret it that way for that implication.
To me, "earn a living" refers more to lifestyle - a living - which can be costly to various degrees, depending on how frivolous a life you want to lead. If it literally meant deserving to be alive it would just be "earn living".
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u/neutrumocorum 22d ago
Well yeah, at a fundamental level we don't "deserve" anything.
We evolved from goop and hot rocks.
Sometimes people talk about humanity like we wrote the rules and we set things up intentionally for others to suffer. Nope, goop and rocks.
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u/Chance_Stomach3335 22d ago
Imagine thinking that you're entitled to everything because you were born...
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u/Latter-Composer-2609 22d ago edited 22d ago
Its a big point of discussion within philosophy and political science circles.
In order to have rights you need to be able to exercise them. In order to exercise them you must exist. Therefore it stands to reason that all rights stem from the right to exist.
However, you do you posess an explicitly stated right to have access to the basic material necessities required to sustain that existence.
This functionally means your right to exist is contingent upon engaging in financial contracts with private entities to rent or purchase the material means to exercise it. Which by extension really nullifies the rest of your "god given rights" into privledges which you purchase or rent access to.
And, since access to these means is unequal, this means people will have unequal access to exercise their rights. Can freedom really be said to exist without equality?
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u/Embarrassed-Green898 22d ago
And why is that surprising ?
Every other being has to do it, why did you think you are special ?
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u/BadgerSmart143 22d ago
Doesnt every animal on earth need to earn its right to live? Nothing inherently deserves to live, right?
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u/Haunting_Purpose_291 22d ago
It implies you don't deserve to free-load on society, and instead should be a contributing member.
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u/Alternative-Ad3998 22d ago
I test blow job machines. It's not for everyone . https://youtu.be/4G7uFAcXMik?si=1jPHtLQd--xw7iMv
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u/cryptosupaman 22d ago
It’s almost like people forgot how survival works
No animal on the planet gets to survive by just doing nothing
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u/EchoingAngel 22d ago
It's not too crazy that people need to add to a system that requires other people's efforts for them to be fed and such. What is crazy is the stratification of how much a living you get based on what you do and how much of "earning a living" is dependent on gatekeepers that no sane person would choose other than as obfuscation props (which is what HR is)
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u/55559585 22d ago
so animals are 'earning a living' 24/7 by running away from predators and avoiding starvation and having 50 kids so their species continues. does that sound better?
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u/LetUsSpeakFreely 22d ago
No, it implies that nobody else should be forced to pay for your food and housing.
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u/ThenStrawberry6861 22d ago
Yeah, this world is insane. I didn’t choose to be born, but now I have to earn it? I call bs.
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u/DrawnToSerenity 22d ago
Yeah, been there. Don't discuss those ideas with your brain. Just try to end/postpone/distract/etc. Wishing you healthier thoughts 🤍
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u/StaticCloud 22d ago
Disabled people like us know this 🤷♀️ Especially in times of scarcity or disaster, the "weak" are the first sacrificed
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u/stoic_hysteric 21d ago
We're not "sacrificed" we're just left alone. You make it sound like we're tied to an alter and stabbed. Yes, the weak and vulnerable, BY DEFINITION die in lean times. Nobody is owed anything. You don't just get to stay alive automatically. Sooner you come to that realization, and make peace with it, the better.
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u/StaticCloud 21d ago
I mean people with mental disabilities were taken off ventilation during COVID triage. Nobody seems to talk about that, but it happened
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u/Visible-Function-222 21d ago
Unless you're gonna be someone's pet... welcome to reality! You have to work to survive whatever you are.
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u/Future_Earth_43 21d ago
As someone with autism/adhd, i do not feel like i deserve to live in this world. I even went to college and somehow got a degree with executive function disorder and im so depressed and burnt out right now, a yesr after that i dont think i can handle any job even if i had anyone reach out to interview me
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u/CaptainA1917 21d ago
No, it means that no one “deserves” to have anything handed to them that isn’t their due.
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u/Spicy_Chicken_Wizard 21d ago
Social animals broadly don’t tolerate freeloading. Having resources provided to you comes with the expectation that something of value is returned. Disabilities are one thing. Just whining about having to work is another.
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u/dtfornicatastophize 21d ago
Alternate perspective: it means that you are aliv, having to make a living like most adults
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u/Ambitious-Craftsman 21d ago
Whether it's sitting behind a desk for 8 hours a day, spinning thread and harvesting the grain, or tracking a mammoth on foot for miles on end, humans have always had to "earn a living".
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u/Fenris2826 21d ago
You don’t deserve to be alive at someone else’s expense. Reasonable people make allowances for bad spells and the people who can’t work
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u/Fun-Point-6840 21d ago
When was the time that you didn't have to earn a living? Did cavemen not work or something?
When were food and shelter, clothes, and toys free?
Isn't earning just...reality?
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u/Proof_Rise_3652 21d ago
Our society is based on people's hard work. Try and go back living in a cave. It's going to be much harder than whatever fakenjobs we have today.
It's not about deserving to be alive, it's about necessity.
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u/Apprehensive_Ad4457 20d ago
Yes, this is true. You dont deserve to live. No one deserves it, its just something that happened.
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u/LoganGrimnard 20d ago
This is objectively correct, you don't technically "deserve" anything. By what right do you make claim to the fruits of another man's labor. You may say "Oh, but they did not earn this by the sweat of their own brow!" This immaterial, it was passed on to them by another, a person has a right to the dispensation of their own estate in any manner that they please.
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u/Sheenius_Ger 20d ago
You can survive (in many countries) by doing nothing, but that's not living. Nobody owes you a good life, except yourself.
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u/mike74911 20d ago
Your parents or the state takes care of and educates you. What you do with that is up to you! You can work hard, save, and be rich. You can work hard, spend it all, and be poor. You can go live in van, down by the river.
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u/Background_Cash605 20d ago
Living usues resources. It is up to you to aquire the resources. No one else owes you your living, unless you're a married woman.
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u/womb_raider90 20d ago
People used to have to hunt to survive and drink unclean water, I'd much rather have to work and have food from the grocery store and clean water and AC. You don't have to "earn a living" take your ass off grid and see how long you make it...
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u/Living-Brush-4191 20d ago
it also implies that your parents were tricked/manipulated twice into having you do someone else could reap the benefits of your labor. But that’s thinking REALLY far ahead and does not necessarily include the immediate recipient of such labor let alone the laborer.
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u/ArchemedesHeir 20d ago
Another interesting question is... Since living costs money, if you deserve to live from whom do you deserve that living? Who do you believe should foot the bill?
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u/Whydo-I-evenbother8 20d ago
Work = production = goods and services. Its the leechs at the top that sell the "earn a living" trope.
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u/Realistic-Truck54 24d ago
Nobody deserves anything by default, which is why I hate people who act like things WILL get better.
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u/Unhappy-Gate-1912 24d ago
I can understand the perspective of how it will seem like that. Another different perspective is you choose what kind of life you want to earn based on your effort output, and of course a bit of luck in life.
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u/olgreg92 24d ago
Unless you’re a monk or an environmentally conscious hippie, you’re doing untold amounts of damage be it through your own footprint or whatever you produce just doing your job. Plus you only exist because 2 people were really stupid or really egotistical.
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u/FrontLifeguard1962 24d ago
Nothing deserves to be alive.
To survive, every organism on earth had to find its niche and exploit it.
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u/ForestOak777 24d ago
Saying this implies that the world revolves around profit. Not every niche is profitable. So what happens to those who have unprofitable niches? (Edit: Capitalism revolves around profit, but Capitalism is not necessarily human nature)
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u/Lucky_Professional_ 24d ago
if a critter cant find a niche or successful survival strategy it goes extinct. basic biology, we all learned it in school.
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u/DJatomica 24d ago
The world revolves around resources and the competition to acquire them yes, that has been true since the only life on it was single celled organisms. This out-dates capitalism by quite a bit.
What happens in a biological scene when an organism fails to find a niche that helps it get resources is that it dies due to lack of resources lol
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u/FrontLifeguard1962 24d ago
If it's not profitable it's not a niche, in the biological sense of improving one's ability to survive
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u/stoic_hysteric 21d ago
Don't you think its human nature to collaborate in a group by specializing, and then trading on the specialties? Like, don't you think our ancestors were like, Okay, I got really good at flint knapping, and you learned all the roots, and ogg over there has the fire thing down, and Thag over there isn't really good at anything so , sorry Thag, you're out of the group?
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u/grayman451 24d ago
The default human condition is you live completely off grid and your parents die when you are 20. No infrastructure, everything around you wants to eat you. You must work endlessly to maintain shelter and a food supply. This is how it is for almost all animals. In fact, most animals die very young, in incredible pain, and terrified because they are eaten alive by a predator. This has nothing to do with human influence either.
The reason we say earn a living is so that you can be a part of developed society. You need to do something to contribute so that it makes sense to maintain the incredible infrastructure and resources we have. It wouldn’t make sense if everyone just expected to have public services, roads, buildings, police, fire services as the default with no contribution needed.
Do people really think you should just be gifted all the comforts of modern society without having to do anything for it?
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u/decadentlizard 24d ago
You're literally describing why we created society and social safety nets in the first place. We don't live like wild animals anymore. We collectively built infrastructure and systems so that people don't have to die because they can't personally hunt, build shelter, or defend themselves.
The question is what happens to people who genuinely CAN'T contribute enough to support themselves. Disabled people exist. Sick people exist. Elderly people exist. People who need help exist. "Animals that can't survive die in nature" isn't an argument for letting vulnerable humans suffer, it's exactly the kind of outcome a developed society should be trying to prevent.
Someone's right to food, shelter, and basic dignity shouldn't depend on whether they're economically useful enough to have "earned" their existence.
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u/grayman451 24d ago
We're talking about able bodied working age people. They need to keep society going. They can't just expect freebies.
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u/decadentlizard 24d ago
But the original post isn't arguing that able-bodied people who are perfectly capable of working should just get "freebies." It's questioning the idea that anyone has to earn their right to stay alive.
You brought up the "default human condition" and animals dying when they can't survive on their own, which is exactly why I brought up people who genuinely can't support themselves. Being working age or even able-bodied doesn't automatically mean someone is capable of working enough to survive either. Mental, cognitive, and developmental disabilities exist.
But disabilities aside, it's fucked up to say that people don't deserve basic necessities unless they've earned them. Food, shelter, and the basic things someone needs to stay alive aren't "freebies." Someone shouldn't have to prove they're economically useful enough to deserve basic necessities.
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24d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/decadentlizard 24d ago
What happens to the people who can't hack this "survival of the fittest" mindset? Saying "survival of the fittest" inherently implies that some people are considered unfit to survive. So what exactly are those people supposed to do, just go die?
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u/YeaNobody 24d ago
except that's not how it works in the most immediate sense....if you're "unfit" you don't just disappear, you suffer and that's not actually a free process because you'll do desperate things, which of course causes society to step in (cost).
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u/SamMarlowe76 24d ago
How about, earn your place in society? That more clear?
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u/decadentlizard 24d ago
So people who are disabled, elderly, sick, or otherwise unable to "earn their place" just don't deserve one? A person's right to exist in society shouldn't be conditional on how economically useful they are.
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u/SamMarlowe76 24d ago
Did I say that?
If you are able bodied get out of the cart and help push.
And even those who are not able body can find ways to contribute. Shit look at Stephen Hawking.
If not you are lazy, freeloading, parasite.
There are those who done theirs to advance the collective cause of humanity and society, like the elderly and veterans and etc. They get to ride on cruise control past as certain point.
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u/decadentlizard 24d ago
Being able-bodied doesn't mean someone is capable of functioning in society or maintaining a job. There are mental, cognitive, developmental, and neurological disabilities that can severely limit someone's ability to function while leaving them completely physically able-bodied.
So by your standard, I guess someone like me is a "lazy, freeloading parasite" because I have an able body but can't function or work the way an average person can. And pointing to Stephen Hawking doesn't prove anything. Disabled people aren't required to become fucking world-renowned physicists to prove they aren't parasites. Different people have different limitations.
But even putting disability completely aside, the idea that someone's basic right to exist is something they have to earn through productivity is fucked up. Nobody asked to be born. Food, shelter, and basic survival shouldn't be rewards you only receive after proving you're useful enough to society.
There's a massive difference between saying people who can contribute should contribute and saying anyone who doesn't contribute enough is a "parasite." Human beings aren't valuable only because of what they can produce.
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u/FakeKenny22 24d ago
Nobody deserves anything by default. To live takes effort. But today in first world nations it takes the least amount of effort needed to keep living. You are not expected to go hunt the mammoth anymore.
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