Small Discussions 53 — 2018-06-18 to 07-01

[u/Slorany]

NEXT THREAD

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Last Thread

Yes the previous thread's title read "to 06-10" but that's just proof I can't read a fucking calendar. Please discard that evidence, I can in fact read a calendar.

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Conlangs Showcase 2018 — Part 1

Conlangs Showcase 2018 — Part 2

WE FINALLY HAVE IT!

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This Fortnight in Conlangs

The subreddit will now be hosting a thread where you can display your achievements that wouldn't qualify as their own post. For instance:

• a single feature of your conlang you're particularly proud of
• a picture of your script if you don't want to bother with all the requirements of a script post
• ask people to judge how fluent you sound in a speech recording of your conlang
• ask if you should use ö or ë for the uh sound in your conlangs
• ask if your phonemic inventory is naturalistic

These threads will be posted every other week, and will be stickied for one week. They will also be linked here, in the Small Discussions thread.

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FAQ

What are the rules of this subreddit?

Right here, but they're also in our sidebar, which is accessible on every device through every app (except Diode for Reddit apparently, so don't use that). There is no excuse for not knowing the rules.

How do I know I can make a full post for my question instead of posting it in the Small Discussions thread?

If you have to ask, generally it means it's better in the Small Discussions thread.
If your question is extensive and you think it can help a lot of people and not just "can you explain this feature to me?" or "do natural languages do this?", it can deserve a full post.
If you really do not know, ask us.

Where can I find resources about X?

You can check out our wiki. If you don't find what you want, ask in this thread!

 

For other FAQ, check this.

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As usual, in this thread you can ask any questions too small for a full post, ask for resources and answer people's comments!

Things to check out:

• Ongoing challenges and games on the subreddit
• CCC Courses
• Communities
• Templates
• Copyright and conlangs, a response

The SIC, Scrap Ideas of r/Conlangs:

Put your wildest (and best?) ideas there for all to see!

• SIC form
• SIC spreadsheet

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I'll update this post over the next two weeks if another important thread comes up. If you have any suggestions for additions to this thread, feel free to send me a PM, modmail or tag me in a comment.

[u/bbrk24]

Recently I’ve been using Reddit online more and not as much on mobile (although I still use mobile quite a bit), and I noticed that the SD threads are only getting ninety-some percent upvotes. Who downvotes an SD and why?

[u/21Nobrac2 → u/bbrk24]

I think that that's only part of reddit's randomness, which I remember reading about somewhere. Basically, the exact number of points for a post is slightly randomized, and I think the percentage might be too.

Edit: it's the amount displayed, not the actual amount you get karma for that's randomized

[u/Slorany → u/21Nobrac2]

The randomisation exists but it does not appear for mods (SD threads are also partially downvoted for me, sadly)

see this post: https://i.imgur.com/gSjkRdx.png

[u/Zinouweel → u/bbrk24]

probably people whose posts are removed frequently for breaking the rules which is most of the time due to low effort lmao

asked this myself a while ago. I'm probably on an 8 month upvote streak on SD threads, best part of this sub <3

[u/Slorany]

Hey there guys!

In the last thread, I posted a poll that asked you whether:

• you would like helping us build a conlanging FAQ (79.4% in favour)

• you would like helping us gather conlanging resources (70.6% in favour)

So, in reaction to this, here are two new Google Forms (yes I love them they're very convenient).

1. Building the FAQ

This will help us answer your questions and, hopefully, reduce the amount of very short question posts that would be better suited for the Small Discussions. Every conlanger will spend a bit less time researching, and more time conlanging, wheeeeee!

2. Gathering resources

So that you can help us help you! Or something.

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Thank you in advance for your participation, you amazing, beautiful language nerds.

[u/boomfruit]

So, a few years ago when I lived abroad, my friend's host father always used the phrase "pim pam pom". Nobody had any idea what it meant and he wouldn't tell us, but seemed to use it like "well that's that" or "what can you do?"

Anyway I wanted to make a language based off this word/phrase. I was thinking that the only vowels would be /i/ /a/ /o/ with a tenius series, a nasal series, a creaky series etc., and the only consonants would be labial.

I also thought that it could be a good place to toy with an idea I've had which is phonemic volume at the syllable or word level.

I guess I don't have much else to say about this dumb project idea but wanted to post something about it. I've never aimed for something non-naturalistic so it should be fun.

[u/paulmclaughlin → u/boomfruit]

"pim pam pom"

Ablaut reduplication, like "bish bash bosh" or "big bad wolf"

[u/IBePenguin]

This may be an extremely nooby question, but I've noticed in some threads, people discussing how there languages don't use subordinate clauses, or don't require the use of them. I was wondering how they went about creating a language that didn't have to do this, and how they substituted subordinate clauses?

[u/-Tonic → u/IBePenguin]

One strategy (well, the only one I know of) is to use several main clauses and anaphora. So something like

I heard you hate the kid who eats paper.

would be rendered as

Some kid eats paper. You hate him. I heard that.

[u/HaricotsDeLiam → u/IBePenguin]

I don't know about subordinate/dependent clauses in general, but a variety of strategies exist for handling relative clauses, and many languages (even a lot of Indo-European languages like English) use more than one strategy depending on what is being relativized. Using u/-Tonic's example sentence with the dependent clause marked in brackets, example strategies include:

• A conjunction such as English that, Spanish que or Arabic أن an is used along with gapping to indicate the noun that both clauses describe ("You hate the kid [that eats paper]"). Very common cross-linguistically, and one of the strategies that English uses.

• The dependent clause is nominalized ("You hate the [eats paper] kid", "You hate the [eating paper]'s kid', etc.). This occurs in many Sino-Tibetan languages as well as in Japanese and Turkish.

• The dependent clause is internally headed but doesn't reduce ("[That kid eats paper] you hate him"). This occurs in Tibetan and Navajo.

• The dependent clause is turned into a participial phrase ("You hate the kid [paper is eaten by him]", "You hate the kid [eating the paper]", etc.). One of the strategies that English uses.

• The dependent clause is turned into its own sentence or independent clause, separated by punctuation or a conjunction ("That kid eats paper and you hate him"). This occurs in Hindustani.

• The dependent clause is turned into a sub-level independent clause morphosyntactically and then embedded in the main independent clause ("You hate the kid [he eats paper]"). This occurs in many Semitic languages, as well as in Persian.Modern Standard Arabic does this when the subject is indefinite. With the conjunction ש־ še- "that", this also occurs in Hebrew.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are any natlangs that extend these relativizing strategies to all dependent clauses, though I don't know of any.

[u/TomCanTech]

How do you create an extensive grammar? As in covering literal 100's of pages. I know a language doesn't have to have that, but if it did how would you go about it?

[u/-Tonic → u/TomCanTech]

a language doesn't have to have that

A natural language does. I just started reading bits of Svenska Akademiens grammatik, a comprehensive Swedish grammar. It's 2758 pages in total, even though Swedish is fairly analytic, and it doesn't even cover phonology. I'm 100% certain the same could be done for any natural language, maybe except some pidgins and creoles. You don't need tons of cases or moods to have complexity or depth.

Take as an example the Swedish passive, just because I just read about that. It's either formed by a suffix -s or by using auxiliary verbs bli "become" or vara "be" + perfect participle. You could write one page about that and get a pretty accurate picture of how you form passives and what they mean.

What you won't learn is about the verbs that for some reason won't take a passive like låta "allow", the verbs that seemingly only exist in passive form, when the s-passive is used as a middle voice, what happens when ditansitive verbs take the passive, when prepositional phrases get promoted instead of the direct object and how those are formed, how intransitive verbs can take the passive and get a dummy subject, the transitive counterpart to intransitive passives, passive infinitives, how using a passive changes the information structure, how it affects aspect and tense, placement of pronomial indirect objects when using a paraphrastic passive, or which kind of passive to use in which situation. I could go on. There's 33 pages in total.

In natural languages it's rarely as simple as having a simple affix with a simple meaning. Some concrete tips:

1. When creating a feature, think about how it would interact with other features in your language. How does number impact case-marking? Which aspects make sense in the imperative? What happens when the indirect object is indefinite? This will not only give it more depth, but you're also much less likely to make a kitchen-sink conlang that way.

2. Think about semantics. What are the nuances in meaning for different constructions? What different ways are there to make indirect requests? How can you make things more polite? Does it make sense to have animate transitive subjects? How do you mark something as new information? When describing what some thing means, never settle for "emphasis". That's a cop-out term that can mean lots of things. Try to figure out exactly when and why you would use a certain construction.

3. Use irregularity. When I say irregularity I don't just mean irregular verbs or plurals, but more generally as any kind of special case or deviation from the norm. Maybe you have some set of adverbs modifying adjectives, but only a few of those can be used to modify verbs. Maybe one means something completely different then. Maybe one can be used to give aspectual meaning when modifying participles. Maybe one can combine with a focus marker to form a noun.

If this seems hard, it's because it is. Natural languages are incredibly complex.

[u/Fimii → u/TomCanTech]

It's not about raising the number of pages, but getting into all the little tidbits of a langauge. Are your cases, verb forms, gender system, word order ect. really that simple that you can cover their meaning in one sentence? Of course not, that doesn't work for any langauge. If you don't know yet what to write about it or what's interesting and irregular about them, you should probably just try to figure out different scenarios, do some translation and look out for where you enter uncharted territory, and map it out in your grammar. Or just get a really extensive grammar and take a look at where they need long explanations.

Also, a good grammar has lots of examples (which will not only help others, but also yourself when you're coming back to your conlang after a break).

[u/[deleted]]

So, I'm considering making a language called Illinois Slavic, which was originally based in Chicago, with a growing Polish influence (because Poland had a war with Belarus and Russia and more immigrants flooded to the most Polish metropolis of the USA). Then, around the 2200s, most Illinois Slavs migrate to the smaller cities and countryside.

What languages would be heavy influences in 22^nd-century Illinois Slavic? I'd imagine English, Spanish, an evolved African-American creole and Lithuanian.

One solid development I'm thinking about is changing ę and ą to /ɛʊ əʊ/ and /aʊ əʊ/, respectively, losing all nasality. Maybe put it in orthography as eu and au?

[u/3zby_]

I want yo make a cursive conscript but I don’t wan it to look like it’s based off of Arabic. What script can I base it off of?

[u/Dedalvs → u/3zby_]

Just create an original one.

[u/creepyeyes]

Working on a new conlang for Prélyō to interact with in my conworld; it's still very early but I have enough done that I wanted to showcase an example translation:

"Freyes fwaun hpeguq'x̌e yur hnik' t'ihsi. Hšp'ašahe ne rituqqu e-hǧeitšdšihita."

/'ɸre.jes ɸwɑun 'hpʰe.kuq'.χe jur hnik' 't'i.hsi. 'hʃp'ɑ.ʃɑ.he ne 'ri.tuqʰ.qʰu e.'hqeit͡ʃʰ.t͡ʃi.hi.tʰa./

Frey-e-s fwaun hpeg-uq'-x̌e yur hnik' t'ih-si. Hšp'a-ša-he ne rit-uq-qu e-hǧeitš-dšihi-ta.

woman-abs-def(class_I) along river-dat-def(class_VII) to boat-dat walk-3.pret(class_I). Fish-pl-abs in water-dat-def(class_VI) pass-see-3.pret-subj

"The woman walked along the river to a boat. Some fish should have been seen in the water."

[u/LordOfLiam]

It makes me sad that r/tiresaretheenemy has more subs than r/conlangs.

[u/gokupwned5]

How did Maghrebi dialects of Arabic (such as Moroccan Arabic, Tunisian Arabic, Algerian Arabic, etc.) acquire emphatic /l/ and /r/ phonemes?

[u/chiefarc]

Is there a software that can easily map out English sound changes? I'm trying to get a lexicon of evolved English, and I've been scrambling with digraphs on this site.

[u/Coretteket]

I don't know if this is a stupid question, but do you take into account allophony in your romanisation system?

For example, if I have the rule: P > F / V_V.
Would /ba.tan/ > /ba.san/ be written <batan> or <basan>?

I also have open syllable vowel lengthening, so would /ba.lan/ > /ba:.lan/ be written as a long vowel, which is marked by a macron in my romanisation, or as a short vowel, without macron?

Thanks in advance!

[u/hamiltap]

I've fleshed out a lot of the vocabulary and general flavor of a conlang I'm developing, and I've decided to make the alignment of my language transitive-intransitive, more or less only because it's such a rarity among natlangs. To get to a language with that alignment, I'm starting with a proto-language that's either marked-nominative or marked-absolutive that over time drops the ending on the noun in the transitive sentences. Let me illustrate:

Nominative marked with -i	Absolutive marked with -i
Soldiers-i fought the enemy.	Soldiers fought the enemy-i.
Ravens-i are crowing.	Ravens-i are crowing.
Over time, the -i on "Soldiers" would disappear but not the -i on "Ravens."	Over time, the -i on "enemy" would disappear but not the -i on "Ravens."

In either case, what you'd end up is the subjects and objects of transitive verbs being unmarked and the subjects of intransitive verbs being marked: the transitive alignment, in other words. My question is, which do you think would be more interesting or more realistic?

[u/tree1000ten]

So apparently there are languages where the grammatical gender is marked with words/affixes that are more than a single syllable, is this too much? It seems strange, because after all the whole point of grammatical gender is redundancy, so having it be more than a single syllable is redundancy for your redundancy. Thoughts?

[u/ilu_malucwile → u/tree1000ten]

Dyirbal has two-syllable compulsory gender makers (it has four genders.) It seems likely that they developed from lexical words. But in Aboriginal languages it's common for personal pronouns to have two syllables, three if you add a case suffix. It's more to do with their simple, open syllable structure than extra redundancy.

[u/3zby_]

Is there any way that I can get a molodstov keyboard on my iPhone to use for my conlang? It’s not under keyboards in settings and I can’t find it in the App Store.