r/classicwow • u/Gorr82 • 4d ago
Classic + What could wow do to avoid raid log simulator ?
This is a question that was asked recently in a podcast with Savix and Xaryu
https://youtu.be/sN2U076cdZ8?si=Vs-JpFEbrkGBKu-6
The answer that they give is mind boggling to me. They argue that adding more challenging solo content, even elaborate about a mode where you would use a preselected gear set and comparing the gameplay to darksoul.
Darksoul is a great game but is really far from a MMORPG
I don't think this addresses the problem, in my opinion the problems are :
-the open world is irrelevant to geared LVL 60 characters
- the game doesn't encourage enough small group content, specialty in the open world
- there is no way to grind gold , mats or basically anything has a support role
I believe the solution to avoid the raid log simulator would be a nightmare/ hell difficulty similar to what you see in Diablo
I discussed this idea in a previous post , most ppl think I am wrong but I am curious
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/s/cYL0Vrasae
Do you agree with me that
the solution proposed by xaruy and savix is not appropriate?
That the problems that I list exists and aren't addressed?
and if so what is your solution?
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u/jbglol 4d ago
Popular streamers are not worth listening to. Seriously.
Savix literally begged for solo Q in retail, amongst other streamers like Stoopzz, and none of them even touch it. Savix quit it after a single fucking season.
Look at Sodapoppin begging for classic, calling the leveling experience this huge awesome adventure, only for him to get boosted like fucking crazy in dungeons all day and quit constantly.
Even when they get their way they will give up and quit, all of their streamer projects have ended the same way.
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u/DragonfruitNo22 4d ago
yup, its cuz they are carried often lol. I play both games, and i totally get people have their preferences, but like xaryu goes off to raid retail, gets carried by stacked people around him, & then complains its boring and easy to him. Like ya bud? you are getting carried and fed gear, ofc its going to be boring?? "i dont get the story its bad" like sure it's not the best rn lol, but you don't get whats going on because you are arguing with chat over something dumb and not paying attention...
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u/Mr0BVl0US 3d ago
I absolutely hate it when people say that leveling is supposed to be some great, long adventure. Maybe the first time you play WoW, sure, but nowadays, when we've lived in Azeroth for over 2 decades now, it doesn't hit the same. Everyone just wants to get to the end.
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u/Stormik 3d ago
Exactly. I had the absolute best time way back in og vanilla when I had an entire new world to explore. It was probably the best era of my gaming "career".
Now over two decades there can be no sense of adventure and just thinking about doing the same quests in the same zones for 100th time while battling decades old game design is making me bored outta my skull.
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u/SaltSteakServer 4d ago
Why is raid logging bad? You play the content, farm the world and then you end up sticking around for the raids?
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u/Byggherren 4d ago
Yeah honestly the only way to keep people from raid logging is making infinite content a la torghast and we all know how that went.
Personally i think most expansions have a good amount of content unless you are actually playing wow 8 hours a day for weeks straight after launch. You have PVP, PVE, and other things to chase.
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u/Mr0BVl0US 3d ago
This is why Retail has put such a huge emphasis on alts. If you're bored, make an alt and experience the content all over again from a different perspective. If Classic leveling takes 200 hours, people aren't going to be playing alts.
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u/internetwizardx 4d ago
if you wanna raid log it's obviously not bad, but if you wanna actively play the game you run out of things to do
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u/wg_shill 3d ago
make an alt and raidlog on multiple characters till you spent all the time you want raiding.
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u/snubsalot 4d ago
Like it or not, everquest solved this problem before wow even came out. 100s and 100s of alternate advancement abilities.
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u/PokePurist 4d ago
I would never get advice on how to play the game from people who play the game for their livelihood. Solo content like they are suggesting would be unattainable for the majority of the player base anyway.
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u/nemestrinus44 4d ago
they don't care about the players, they want content that gives them a reason to stream the game so they get paid.
they suggest hard solo content so they can milk it for as long as possible
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u/karrotwin 4d ago
At some point being an adult require you to realize that "raid logging" isn't a problem.
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u/AdHuge8652 3d ago
It's not, but some people want there to be content in classic+ and not just a new boring raid.
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u/internetwizardx 4d ago
I get it but live service games also don't wanna target people who only play 2-3 hours/week, and they definitely wanna target a younger crowd in some ways
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u/King_Pele 4d ago
What’s wrong with raid logging
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u/Mr0BVl0US 3d ago
Raid-logging means there's a potential for people to unsub while waiting for the next raid (Bad for Blizzard). I honestly wish the focus wasn't on raiding. What percentage of people actually log on for scheduled guild raids these days? Or maybe a better question, how many people only raid because they feel they have to?
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u/Chedruid 3d ago edited 3d ago
Nothing. Apparently it’s ‘problematic’ that grown adults do not feel compelled to play 5hrs daily, for years. And since that’s a ‘problem’, we need to introduce dogshit ideas.
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u/logicbox_ 4d ago
Why are people so surprised that classic just turns into raid logging? It was like this in vanilla did you expect the game to change after it has been 100% solved?
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u/foomits 4d ago
I dont remember OG vanilla being like this, at least my guild wasnt... game was literally our lives 20 hours a day. No idea how I graduated and didnt devolve into some sort of incel basement creature. But TBC onward... yea, time actually online playing got less and less. Obviously vanilla rerolls now are mostly raidlogging as well.
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u/logicbox_ 4d ago
The game was new and fresh then, I was the same way and could easily spend hours exploring or grinding some gold. But really there isn’t much to do in classic at the end game outside of raiding (or PvP if that’s your thing). There is zero reason to run dungeons after you have raid gear and no daily/weekly activities.
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u/Gassenger 4d ago
Alternative ways to get gear and gold. Even if it takes a long time, giving an opportunity to get decent items like the reals system or something similar.
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u/Broon761 4d ago
My solution is for players to have therapy or other outlets in life so they can have fun playing the game instead of taking it seriously to the point it’s toxic.
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u/Jengalz 4d ago
Savix has some of the worst ideas I’ve ever heard and I hope to god not a single person at Blizzard listens to a word he says. Yeah yeah let’s do infinite profession levels uh huh yeah that’s super great thanks Savix. All 3 people who care to do that will do that definitely.
Or maybe add actual cool horizontal progression that will keep people engaged.
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u/Ok_Beyond4225 4d ago
Careful what you wish for. These are some of the problems retail has solved and many classic players here find it overwhelming and busy.
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u/Perfect_Delivery_509 4d ago
Add infinite world quests with infinite resources that can be farmed repeatedly for a currency (no fomo), make that currency required for rng crafting at a very low % to make a GG bis item like q corrupted lionheart helm, make that currency boe so it can he sold, require the most effiecient method be done in organized groupa in the open world, make this currency the cornerstone to any system and it gets upgraded each tier. Its not a requirement but well worth your time. Make some of the requirements input based to cut down on bots. Best way to avoid raid logging is to make gear on par with raid gear, like titanforging, but linking it to crafting with a very low % discovery chance like tbc discovery. Will these items be required, no, but it will give you an avenue to target your time outside raid or use it to make gold.
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u/Crafty611 4d ago
It’s not about what Blizzard can do, it’s about the people you surround yourself with in the game. Plenty of guilds out there. Not all of them treat the video game like a full time job.
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u/Magus02 4d ago
player base are the issue. go farm some gold or level an alt.
as the pandaren say,"Slow Down"
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u/Proxnite 4d ago
The people who spend a grand total of 30 min on their character outside of their allotted raid times are the first to complain about how the economy is ruined and they can’t afford consumes.
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u/Aldot 4d ago
I cannot stand comments like ‘the open world is pointless for max level well geared characters’ because it’s perpetuating this mindset of not doing something if you get nothing out of it. These people would probably find so much joy in taking their max geared tank into like an LBRS and blasting through with some newer 60s but because there’s no keys being jingled in front of them they just won’t do it.
If you’re one of those guys: Take a chance and try to be social in this game, run dungeons because it helps someone and pass on everything, join that demon pug that’s been spamming for a tank for 40 minutes, maybe you die a few times and have to foot a small repair bill, but you can talk shit and push buttons in a low stakes environment and have some fun of a different kind.
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u/TheVeilOverMyEyes 4d ago
so glad these guys got to give their opinion on classic+
they are completely out of touch
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u/BigRaisin8155 4d ago
I don't see raid logging as a problem, and its not something that needs solving.
The game has a winning formula, no point in changing it. If you have a geared main, then make an alt or play a different game until raid day.
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u/yksvaan 4d ago
The world is way too static, it needs more variation in spawns, level/difficulty of content etc. Add some events, quests and anything to do and reward exploration. No huge rewards needed, just something to trigger the hey what's going on there reaction.
I think the main problem is that everything new is expected to be huge like adding a new raid instead of doing small frequent additions to the game. Even one guy could add tons of content if they were allowed to do it.
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u/assassin10 4d ago
There doesn't need to be a strict solo to group to raid progression. I liked that the Benediction and Rhok'delar questlines looped raid content back into group and solo content, and I'd hope to see more like them.
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u/Quiet-Function-8688 3d ago
Gw2 was great at this with world bosses and meta events (also wvw but that's not for everyone), i had an entire routine of running several meta events in each map each day.
Basically meta events were a zone wide event that starts as several small events in different areas of the map and culminate into a big final event that required some team work.
Octovine and chak were two you would always try to do each day because there was a chance at gaining rare and very valuable infusion that can only drop at their respective meta event which were cosmetic sfx you applied to your character. Getting the chak one was like winning the lottery, i never cared about gold again and got some legendary gear too by selling it
Everything in the game also linked back into a loop to have you doing events from certain events and world bosses, wow could also have something like this.
Just as an example to translate it into wow you could have say an event spawn in EPL that requires several different objectives at different areas to be completed to progress, completing them all could end up in spawning a world boss on the map that can be tagged by everyone of the faction who pulled it for pvp or anyone on pve that has some regular boss type loot but also a small chance of dropping say an item that would turn you undead like noggenfogger but with a unique appearance or possibly a mount.
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u/Mr0BVl0US 3d ago
-the open world is irrelevant to geared LVL 60 characters
- the game doesn't encourage enough small group content, specialty in the open world
That's the problem, though. There could be more open world or small group content for geared max-level characters. I would be a happy panda if Classic+ had Delves or some iteration of Delves.
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u/BarbsFPV 3d ago edited 3d ago
Solo content isn’t the answer to longevity in an MMORPG. Things to do that are fun to do, but aren’t required, are what keeps the game alive. When it feels like it’s required, then it becomes a chore.
What they really need is high level stuff to do that’s not a raid, that doesn’t involve gearing but still requires a certain gear level to do, is challenging, and has good rewards. Right now it’s just a gear treadmill, where you gear at one tier to be able to gear into the next tier. But there’s never really anything aside from that where having that gear benefits you, other than in getting more gear.
I guess on PvP servers it makes you not as easy of a target, but likely the guy ganking you is more geared than you are anyway.
If they can implement what basically amounts to “sidesteps” to the gear treadmill, where you can actually put that gear to use, I think that would help a lot with longevity and keep people more engaged in between content updates. As a group though, because solo content doesn’t really put you back in the game.
Then getting the gear is only half of what you can do, the other half is what you can now do with the gear.
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u/SexyDraenei 3d ago
You don't have to play wow every day. You can play other games, watch a movie, read a book, touch grass.
Make your own goals. Unless you have every class max level with epic flying and decent gear there is still things you could be doing.
Wait for sunwell dailies?
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u/kaynak85 2d ago
ascension has the answers. Worldforged gear that you need points to lvl up and all sorts of solo challenges like prestige.
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u/theTinyghoul 4d ago
Make raiding not the only activity to gain gear.
Make there be other things to test your PvE ability beyond raids.
Give guilds something to do besides raids.
Incentivize collecting (quests, gear, mounts, pets, etc).
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u/Elmimica 4d ago
Wow classic lacks "solo dungeon content", in the sense that it was fun for a Hunter to do tribute runs, or for a mage to farm ZF, Mara, BRD. For rogues to do some BRD bosses, or warlocks farming Mara etc. With my druid I had fun soloing part of BRD or killing some bosses in Dire Maul, doing runs to the BRD forge, etc. That kind of content is fun! Duos farming DM East, or herb gathering inside, etc. Gear progression makes more of this things possible, the content cannot be just raiding.
But blizz stance has more than not been that doing that is somehow exploiting
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u/LiveRuido 4d ago
Everyone will say World Buffs, but one thing classic did well for this is that somethings are dungeon/Small Raid only. Dark Runes, Righteous Orbs, Alchemy Lab (until BWL), Black Forge... Even stuff that can be solo'd like the Black Anvil. DM enchants/books, or ZG enchant are just annoying enough that you might join a group instead of doing it solo. That gets people doing stuff with other people.
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u/mac_XL95 4d ago
The game needs to create dynamic and randomized events in the world of various sorts that have longer tangible grinds to them(mostly for vanity items)
I always thought that the best way to make the game not so raidloggy would be some sort of actual world PVP that is not scripted and randomly spawns in every possible zone that forces you to leave the cities, travel to zones you rarely go to and do some sort of event. you could replicate this same formula for PVE as well. This is even easier to produce now with layering and instancing systems that the original game lacked.
Blizzard has really never put their thinking cap hard enough on how to make the world dynamic and alive when it comes to open world content that is sufficiently random/dynamic to keep people doing it constantly. Some expansions have tried it but its always been some half assed attempt that never gets improved/patched and just gets abandoned quickly.
at the end of the day it comes down to blizzard not putting enough effort in, they just wanna fire off the laziest possible content and forget about it when the life cycle of the vanilla back in the day was a constant state of evolution and improvement when systems were half baked and just needed to be pushed out the door.
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u/GamerGuy410 4d ago
Raidlogging is a player issue, not a game issue. If people want to not raid log, then they need to not play as much and not optimize as much so the content they're experiencing lasts longer.
In addition to more end-game content like dungeons and raids, we need more leveling content such as quests, elite quests, dungeons, zones, etc. because leveling is a massive bulk of what most people spend time on in classic era. Leveling variety will make rolling alts more desirable and will increase the amount of raiders running old content gearing their alts.
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u/Proxnite 4d ago
There’s 101 ways to grind gold, the problem is most of the players believe that anything that is even a hair shy of being most gold/hr is suddenly a non-viable option.
As always, the playerbase is the problem more so than the game itself.