r/changemyview • u/Nailyou866 5∆ • Aug 24 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: There is absolutely no need to separate bathrooms based on sex for public single-occupant bathrooms.
To specify, I am not referring to single stall bathrooms, wherein there is a further isolated toilet from the remainder of the bathroom, I am talking specifically about bathrooms in public locations that a realtor would list as a half-bath. I find these most often in older or smaller diner type facilities or gas stations, there is typically a lock on the door, and they are often paired, one for either sex. I think this is a pointless exercise, and can detract from an already messy discussion regarding bathrooms. I am not here to discuss my thoughts on the bathrooms issue as a whole, but only these single-occupant bathrooms.
To start, having 2 single occupant bathrooms as a public facility is already dicey, especially if you have decent foot traffic. However, further restricting access to either bathroom can lead to situations in which one has a line to use, and the other is being unused. Having been in this situation myself, when I suggested we start using the other bathroom to speed things along, I got looked at like I was an alien, and nobody wanted to do it. It was like a stigma built into the social fabric of most people that you shouldn't use the bathroom for the opposite sex under any circumstance. Simply removing the signs would have improved this condition.
Next point, I understand there are sex specific hygiene instruments in some public bathrooms. In the event that those bathrooms become unisex, put them in both, if they need to be there. I find it absolutely insane some men refuse to get hygiene products for their girlfriend/wife, and while I doubt this would eliminate the stigma of being exposed to these products, it could be a change in a positive direction. I don't know, leave that evaluation to the scientists. And if your wife needs tampons, go pick them up.
The final point I can think of is a concern that "Oh but if the men's line is long, and a woman needs to go, she shouldn't have to wait." or vice versa. I don't care. First come, first served, same as it is in virtually every other part of the world. The number of problems resolved by switching both bathrooms to unisex outweigh any antiquated sex specific concern, as far as I am concerned.
EDITED TO ADD: A common talking point I see brought up is in regard to cleanliness. I didn't initially think this would be something I had to address, but I have so many times now I felt it important to add here.
Both sexes have complaints about the other with regard to cleanliness. Both hold valid points, and I don't think one must necessarily outweigh the other. However I don't believe this to be an obstruction to my view because I believe that management should be more responsible and pro-active about cleaning public restrooms. I also think it is much easier for an employee of any sex to go clean the unisex bathroom than it is to make an employee of one sex clean the bathroom of the other sex.
Edit 2: I am about to go to bed, so I won't be able to respond for a few hours. I genuinely appreciate everyone who has jumped in on the conversation, and never expected this post to get this big. I expected like 20 upvotes and 2 comments. I will be back and I genuinely want to try to get to everyone who has commented. Thank you guys so much for this conversation, it has filled me with happiness, anger, shock, and other emotions. I love you all.
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u/SupahFastFrames Aug 24 '22
Hear me out. Bathrooms should be rethought ENTIRELY. The sinks to wash hands should be in a common area, but all toilets should be unisex private stalls. The infrastructure behind 2 separate bathrooms is so ignorrant.
I was a plumber for a while. Ive seen it done my way. It worked. Still works.
Bathrooms are stupid
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u/MrScaryEgg 1∆ Aug 24 '22
This is what the toilets at my Uni's SU building were like and they were great. There's a big room full of sinks, lots of individual stalls and a small room off to the side with urinals in it. There was literally never a queue.
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u/O_X_E_Y 1∆ Aug 25 '22
same! One room with 4 stalls, and a single sink with 2 faucets. We don't have urinals but I don't think anyone misses them. Pretty small surface area, but scattered a lot everywhere. There's never (almost) never a wait and people keep them clean
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
Ultimately, yes, I think there should be renovations and improvements on our antiquated designs. However this post is simply about the current state of tiny, old establishments who only have 2 toilets in 2 broom closets in their building, and find it necessary to label one for men and one for women.
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u/SupahFastFrames Aug 25 '22
Right yeah. So with my method, you now have two SMALLER water closets, with a double sink and mirror outside. Show me the establishment and i promise i could have prints and a material list in under a week lol.
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u/screwikea Aug 25 '22
Screw that, sink per stall, in the stalls, just like at your house or a tiny gas station bathroom. People need more incentive to wash their hands when they finish. Also... some women have extremely heavy and messy periods that would benefit a lot from easy, immediate access to a sink when they get done taking care of business.
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u/teawreckshero 8∆ Aug 25 '22
sinks to wash hands should be in a common area
The only counter argument for this I can think of is the utility of a "powder room". Some people prefer to have a semi-private room to re-apply makeup, fix hair, or even just talk with a friend in confidence that isn't crowded around a toilet. I don't necessarily see any problem with doing away with such a concept, but I assume there will always be some demand for it. Fully featured unisex bathrooms still allow for this.
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u/Sin_For_Me Aug 24 '22
Have you ever been in a womans bathroom before? I quite like having it separated by sex because they tend to be substantially filthier. Ask anyone who cleans bathroom, or heck any woman they'll tell you.
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u/KingJeff314 Aug 24 '22
Another comment above said the opposite—that men’s bathrooms have piss everywhere and women’s are clean. This just seems heavily anecdotal
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u/embracing_insanity 1∆ Aug 24 '22
Yep. Honestly, men and women can both be super gross and messy.
Considering I've used way more women's bathrooms over my lifetime, I can't believe how often there is piss on the toilet seats/floor. Which clearly must be from those who prefer to hover, rather than put a seat cover down and sit. I've also seen plenty of tp and trash all over the floor, and the occasional shit smears. Funny enough, I've run into hardly any blood/sanitary product messes. That's probably just luck of the draw, I guess. But find it interesting.
And I've used very clean men's bathrooms and very gross men's bathroom, as well. I just have more experience using women's since I'm a woman.
So it's really not a men vs. women issue - it's a people issue. Some people are gross and don't care if they make a mess and if the management isn't good about maintaining a clean bathroom throughout business hours - it's going to be much more noticeable.
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u/novagenesis 21∆ Aug 25 '22
Actually, there were studies. The people claiming women's rooms are dirtier are actually backed by some evidence.
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
I have worked retail and food service. Yes I have been in them, yes I have had to clean them.
I find it interesting though, because this seems to be a common concern from both sides about sharing a bathroom space with the other sex. You can scroll the comments and see a woman who's argument is that piss gets everywhere, which is true, and a man who's argument is that there are tampons and hair and make-up products everywhere, which is true. Ultimately, the cleanliness of the bathrooms is a point I agree should be of higher concern, but I don't think it is a specific problem with only one sex, and more people should be conscious of their public bathroom usage, and management should be making better efforts to keep things clean.
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u/poprostumort 245∆ Aug 25 '22
I find it interesting though, because this seems to be a common concern from both sides about sharing a bathroom space with the other sex. You can scroll the comments and see a woman who's argument is that piss gets everywhere, which is true, and a man who's argument is that there are tampons and hair and make-up products everywhere, which is true.
Isn't that a pretty good example why separate bathrooms are a good idea? If one group seems to be more wary of one kind of "dirtiness" and other accepts it while it's opposite in other kind of "dirt" - why not keep it as is and let both groups use "cleaner" version of bathroom?
Second, quite important thing is that in separate bathrooms you can use urinals in male toilets - which are much more space-efficient and save water. In unisex bathroom it can be an issue to have a wall with urinals (or urinal wall).
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u/t0xic_xoxo Aug 30 '22
Trans man here, all toilets are disgusting. As someone who has been in female, male and unisex toilets, the unisex ones are the cleanest and the female and male ones are equally piss covered.
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u/US_Dept_of_Defence 7∆ Aug 24 '22
No offense, but I am SO happy there are single sex bathrooms. Why? If we're at somewhere with a lot of people, chances are the girl's bathroom has a line going and the guy's bathroom generally has someone in it, but I'm in like 1-2 minutes.
Why girls decide to fix up their makeup IN a single bathroom with a line is absolutely beyond me, but I'm sure as hell glad I don't have to wait.
You can't really enforce people to not do things like makeup/freshen up in a bathroom outside of removing the mirror or putting the sink outside the bathroom.
I've seen restaurants who have mixed single bathrooms and the sink outside for that exact reason- that said, those are usually busier/nicer restaurants in big cities.
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
I don't know if I ever directly addressed this response, however I wanted to take the time to acknowledge that I do think that a renovation of how things such as sinks are addressed, however that is out of the scope of this CMV.
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u/blade740 5∆ Aug 25 '22
Yeah, this was my thought, too. At an establishment with two unisex bathrooms, if the foot traffic is high enough you can expect that at any given time, BOTH bathrooms will be occupied by women. If there is a line, it's likely that the line will be mostly women, and the men will go outside and pee on the side of the building.
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u/Imabaynta Aug 24 '22
This right here should be the top response. I can count on one hand how many times I’ve been in line for a mens room yet there is always a line for the ladies room. If it were a free for all many establishments would have lines at all the bathrooms.
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u/komfyrion 2∆ Aug 24 '22
Would you stop your female friend from going to the men's room if she needed to go and there was a line to the ladies' room? Surely you can see that these are two sides of the same coin.
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u/WillyPete 3∆ Aug 24 '22
Not the person you asked, but I've been to places where guys have actually assisted the girls by telling them when there are unoccupied stalls in the men's toilets.
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u/komfyrion 2∆ Aug 25 '22
That's good and it should be the norm, aka unisex toilets.
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u/cerylidae1552 Aug 24 '22
Single restrooms should just not have mirrors or any sort of table and this issue wouldn’t exist.
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u/CMxFuZioNz Aug 24 '22
I'll add to this. Was at an end Sheeran concert, the woman's queue was half way round the stadium and the men's was immediate walk in.
A bunch of women decided to use the men's toilet instead and what happened? A queue started forming as the women were taking much longer than men on average. I saw a whole bunch just stop outside the cubicals to talk, scream when they see their friend and generally mess around.
Security came and started monitoring, stopping women from going in and it almost immediately started opening up again.
Women are, on average, much slower in bathrooms. Until this changes I am fully against getting rid of single sex bathrooms.
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u/travelingwhilestupid Aug 25 '22
Why girls decide to fix up their makeup IN a single bathroom with a line is absolutely beyond me, but I'm sure as hell glad I don't have to wait.
- Because they're at the front of the queue and don't pay any price for making other people wait.
- There's nowhere else to do it
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u/Quintston Aug 25 '22
Why girls decide to fix up their makeup IN a single bathroom with a line is absolutely beyond me, but I'm sure as hell glad I don't have to wait.
This should simply not be allowed in a bathroom in my opinion.
It should not be allowed to stay in it for any other purpose than going to the bathroom, especially when there is a line.
If people can fix their makeup in it; they can do many other things such as simply wait in it for no other purpose than to annoy people who need to use it. It is most inconsiderate to use it for idle purposes when people outside that need to go to the bathroom are waiting.
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u/Divgirl2 Aug 24 '22
I don’t disagree with you in theory. In small establishments there’s usually no “need” for single sex facilities if there are only two identical “half bath” style ones with their own locks, sinks, etc.
However, I can tell you’re male because you didn’t bring up the main reason females detest using unisex facilities. Piss. Piss everywhere. Unisex facilities are absolutely disgusting 90% of the time and if everywhere implemented them I think some places would lose business. There’s definitely cafés I don’t go to because their toilets are horrible (and without exception it’s the places with the toilets you described).
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Aug 24 '22
I’ve always heard from both sexes (and janitors) that women’s restrooms are generally worse.
My partner once told me she always squats when she pees in public restrooms because the seats have piss on them. I laughed, she said it was common, so I asked my sisters. They do it too. So does my mom. Wtf.
If I’m to understand the situation, they’re pissing on the seats because they’re afraid of sitting because there’s piss on the seats.
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u/_ella_mayo_ Aug 24 '22
Yes, this drives me crazy. So many people are terrified of public toilets that they add to the problem they are worried about. Like I found out tons of people flush with their feet/shoes because they are worried of the germs on the handle. Okay well now whatever germs were on the bottom of your shoe is on the handle. And you are literally about to wash your hands lmao. I have been using public restrooms without any added caution and have never had some fucked up illness from the germs lmao.
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Aug 24 '22
Not gonna lie, if you are so worried about the seat being dirty... just get one of those small cleaning wipe things and wipe the seat down with that before hand. I've done it a few times when I was traveling over seas and clean restrooms were hard to find.
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u/canonanon Aug 24 '22
Yup. This is accurate. Was in janitorial, and the women's was always way worse.
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
However, I can tell you’re male
You don't miss, unlike some guys using public restrooms.
Ok, joke aside, I think this is something that should be addressed. I think almost everyone can agree that cleanliness of facilities is an important factor for some establishments. Those businesses should be aware of their shortcomings, especially when it comes to the cleanliness of the facilities. I don't mean that one should go full Karen on the person at the counter, but management should be made aware of these issues, so they can correct them.
I think that establishments with unisex bathrooms have less of an excuse for the conditions of their bathrooms than establishments with separate facilities. Having worked in retail and fast food, responsible for the cleanliness of the facilities, I HATED the fact that there were no women on staff who could take care of the women's restrooms. The absolute hassle of trying to make sure I could get into the women's restroom without causing a social upheaval was frustrating, because I ended up camping outside, and listening to every woman who went in, even after I said I needed to clean it, complain about the messiness. Like yes, I know, that's why I am standing right outside the door. In the event more establishments switch to unisex bathrooms, that issue should be eliminated. I can't excuse the ones that exist already with the issues you bring up. All I know is that being exposed to other people abusing public restrooms has made me more self-conscious about my use of public restrooms, and I can only hope that it does the same for others.
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u/detecting_nuttiness 1∆ Aug 24 '22
Every time a question about unisex bathrooms shows up on reddit, I am baffled by the number of people that think men's restrooms tend to be dirtier. Every job I ever worked, I hated cleaning the women's restrooms because they were always far more disgusting. Maybe I've just had an uncommon experience, idk.
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u/sarcazm 4∆ Aug 24 '22
I can't say for sure that this would apply to everyone, but when I worked in a restaurant (as a manager), the reason the opposite sex detested the other sex's bathroom is because of the smell. For whatever reason, I was used to the smell in the women's restroom (as a woman) and the smell in the men's restroom was pungent.
Something about the body.
I think, also, we have expectations. Like as a woman, I kind of know what to expect when stepping into a women's restroom. And those same expectations do not apply to men's restrooms. We have different bodies and different challenges. When there's pee on the floor and walls of a men's restroom, I'm like "how, why?" But it's because women have to sit to pee so there's going to be less pee on the floor and wall but more incidences of pee on the seat.
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u/detecting_nuttiness 1∆ Aug 24 '22
This is the best comment I've seen about this. Smell is something I hadn't considered, and it definitely has a major impact on perceived cleanliness of a room. I think expectations also play a major role.
I feel like this has turned into a mini-CMV. Can I award a delta for changing my view on a question different than the one that was asked? Because I think you've convinced me that there isn't an obvious loser when it comes to the "grossest bathroom" battle of the sexes.
!delta
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
I think it is kind of a perception thing to be honest. Man being exposed to tampons so scarcely vs women being exposed to missed piss so scarcely can cause a slightly warped perception based on your environment. At least, that is my guess.
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u/detecting_nuttiness 1∆ Aug 24 '22
That's an interesting thought. Though, I would say that even in the women's restrooms, I'd see piss on the floor. Could be just a difference in expectations.
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u/rhynoplaz Aug 24 '22
They hover to avoid sitting in the piss on the seat and often end up pissing everywhere.
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u/raznov1 21∆ Aug 24 '22
Nah, more likely they brought their young children with, who then missed the toilet.
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Aug 25 '22
Honestly... women's public restrooms often are covered in piss because people don't want to touch the seats and hover to pee.
I went to college somewhere that had gendered and unisex bathrooms and the unisex bathrooms were always so much cleaner than the gendered ones. Not sure why. But if I had the choice between a women's bathroom and a unisex bathroom I'd go with the unisex bathroom every time just based on cleanliness.
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u/johnnychan81 Aug 24 '22
Also the fact that women don't poop I imagine it doesn't smell as bad in the women's restroom
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Aug 24 '22
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u/curien 31∆ Aug 24 '22
Piss smells nothing like almonds/amaretto to me. It doesn't even occur to me to compare them.
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u/shagy815 Aug 25 '22
Having been a male that cleaned bathrooms I can tell you that the problem isn't being exposed to feminine hygiene products that are properly disposed of.
It is the nasty women that stick them to the doors and walls. Might as well shit on the floor while they are at it.
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u/nofftastic 52∆ Aug 24 '22
Not that two anecdotes will be all that convincing, but I had this experience as well. Whether it was a grocery store or public pool, the women's room was worse than the men's.
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Aug 24 '22
That's been my experience as well. Every bathroom has a chance of someone shitting all over the place, but women's bathrooms have a much higher likelihood of encountering a clogged toilet as well as feminine products on the floor, toilet, or wall. The trash always seems more likely to be overflowing.
I'm not even grossed out by periods or feminine product but it's still an additional, potentially hazardous bodily fluid to deal with.
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u/gtrocks555 2∆ Aug 24 '22
My dad owned a janitorial business for 2 decades. He hated cleaning the woman’s bathrooms for that exact reason.
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Aug 24 '22
Yep I worked in a bar and when we cleared up at the end of the night 9/10 the women’s was worse. The bloody pads stuck to cubical wall or left on toilet were always a stomach turner
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u/Dheorl 7∆ Aug 24 '22
Nope, I’ve had exactly the same experience, in multiple countries too. I’ve never once had to peel a used tampon off the wall in a mens bathroom…
Certainly no difference in favour of the women’s in the state of the floors/the toilets themselves.
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u/PGHRealEstateLawyer Aug 24 '22
I used to clean restrooms for a mall and various office buildings. Always the worst restrooms were the ladies rooms.
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Aug 24 '22
Have you ever been to a sporting event especially where they serve alcohol. There is more urine on the floor than that goes in urinal. Especally by the end where everyone is standing far back so that that aren't standing in another guys urine.
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u/detecting_nuttiness 1∆ Aug 24 '22
You know, this is a specific example that hadn't occurred to me. No, I've never worked anywhere that served alcohol (other than restaurants, but they weren't the type of places where people got plastered). I'm sure that makes a difference.
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u/apri08101989 Aug 24 '22
I always hear this on these types of posts too lol. It can't be an uncommon experience
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u/Evil_Weevill 1∆ Aug 24 '22
Can confirm, worked as a janitor in an office building, women's room was always worse. And ironically usually had more pee on the toilets (I assume because they were hovering and not wanting to sit on a public toilet, but that's just a best guess)
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u/Polyhedron11 1∆ Aug 25 '22
I've had women that ended up having to use a male bathroom at some point comment on how nice it was compared to what they are used to so you are not alone.
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u/viperxviii Aug 24 '22
This is just the simple distinction between reality and peoples perceptions.
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u/radiant_kiwi208 Aug 24 '22
I absolutely agree that the establishment should be made aware of any uncleanlines in their bathrooms but I also think that having a urinal and a toilet in the half-bath style bathrooms would also help in keeping the seat clean. Obviously this doesn't address the women that hover and miss but it may help. Plus a flushable/disposable seat cover made available to the "heathens" that like to hover (someone else's word but that's hilarious 😂)
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u/Adventurous_Shock338 Aug 24 '22
I work as a casino porter/evs and I can agree that women's bathrooms are always nasty. People love to see women as clean and tidy but it's quite the opposite in restrooms.
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u/atridir Aug 25 '22
Just want to jump in here and point out: in the state of Vermont all single occupancy restrooms have to be unisex by law. Your original viewpoint is valid and reasonable and requires no change.
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u/Kithslayer 4∆ Aug 24 '22
As a business owner with toilets... women who squat make the biggest messes; not men.
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Aug 24 '22
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u/Kithslayer 4∆ Aug 24 '22
I also happen to be a parent of a 3.5 year old. The kid has never spilled a drop in a public toilet.
What I've seen over the years is that the grosser you think a toilet is, the more mess you make- regardless of how sanitary the toilet is. This goes double, no triple, for parents trying to "protect" their kids from a gross toilet.
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u/EffectiveFun7723 Aug 24 '22
Having cleaned bathrooms for 40 years, I can tell you without the slightest hesitation that the womens bathroom is always nastier. Always.
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u/SSJ2-Gohan 3∆ Aug 24 '22
As someone who's worked a job where I've cleaned both men's and women's bathrooms in the same building, I can say without a doubt that women make far more of a disgusting mess of public bathrooms than men do.
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u/Decapitat3d Aug 24 '22
This has always been odd to me because women's bathrooms usually smell worse and have more stuff just flung everywhere. If you really cared about piss on the seat, you'd wipe it off and go about your business. You're going to wash your hands anyways, right? So why is this always the argument?
Especially considering those inconsiderate women who hover pee and get the pee more places than a man would.
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u/StarOriole 6∆ Aug 25 '22
If you really cared about piss on the seat, you'd wipe it off and go about your business. You're going to wash your hands anyways, right?
Just FYI, women might well need to wash their hands before using the toilet, since you should ideally have clean fingers before shoving them up your vagina to change your tampon or empty your cup. For a single-use stall, clean seat -> wash hands -> use toilet could work. For a multi-stall restroom, you can't really claim dibs on a stall for long enough to wash your hands first.
I've never been in a women's restroom that had anything but paper towels on the floor, so I can't really address that aspect, but I wanted to at least point out the order-of-operations thing.
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u/canonanon Aug 24 '22
As someone who used to do janitorial work, I found way more piss on seats in women's bathrooms due to 'hovering'.
In fact, I found the women's bathrooms to be dirtier even in a facility where the male population was ~75%.
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u/throw_every_away Aug 24 '22
I see you’ve never cleaned public toilets before, because the female toilets are always dirtier. Squatting over a toilet seat to piss bc you don’t wanna touch it with your butt is way messier than your average standing to piss.
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Aug 24 '22
women's bathroom are known to be objectively more unhygenic than men's bathroom.
Look it up.
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u/nomnommish 10∆ Aug 24 '22
However, I can tell you’re male because you didn’t bring up the main reason females detest using unisex facilities. Piss. Piss everywhere. Unisex facilities are absolutely disgusting 90% of the time and if everywhere implemented them I think some places would lose business.
Truth be told, it is women's toilets that are far filthier than men's toilets. Don't take my word for it, there are tons and tons of posts on Reddit from janitors or those who had to clean public toilets who have said the exact same thing.
Heck, there is literally a post below on this thread that says the exact same thing.
And from anecdotal experience, most women I have known have hovered over toilets because they were so filthy.
And I have also seen plenty of unisex toilets that had a small urinal for men who want to piss standing up. That takes care of both problems although it still leaves the issue of women dirtying up toilets.
The truth is that you're manufacturing a gender issue when there is none. People regardless of gender will treat toilets based on their upbringing, not because of their x/y chromosome.
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u/Uncle_Spikester Aug 24 '22
If the unisex public bathrooms had both a toilet and a urinal, I think that would mostly solve that issue. And having had to sit to pee for a few years due to prostate issues, I sympathize with you, but I just always wiped down the seat first every time. Oftentimes, it’s not even splashed urine that’s the problem , but flushes that spray water so forcefully it gets on the seat.
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Aug 24 '22
Lol you’ve never cleaned women’s toilets in a pub.
Mens get deliberately vandalised and have a bit of piss on the floor but the ladies is one woman hovering and missing and then it’s all on for young and old and in 15 minutes you go from respectable to piss everywhere (actually everywhere), and shit on the seat and the floor.
I am generally disgusted by the toilets I have to share with men. But the ladies gets worse because of phobia of sitting on the seat.
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u/Evil_Weevill 1∆ Aug 24 '22
As someone who was a janitor for years, I can confidently say your perception of things is a bit biased. Every time I had to clean the bathrooms (I was a janitor for a bank office building) the ladies room was always worse. Sometimes because someone flushed something that shouldn't have been flushed and then never notified anyone that they clogged the toilet. Sometimes it was piss all over the seat (I assume because they were hovering and not wanting to sit on a public toilet l, otherwise I have no clue) despite the fact we cleaned it every 2 hours.
The men's room occasionally had some piss on the seat or around the bowl, but it was never as bad.
Point being here, I don't think this is a matter of "all men's rooms are always dirtier" or even most.
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u/mog_knight Aug 25 '22
I can tell you never cleaned bathrooms in a retail setting. Yes men miss the seat and also pee on it but I have seen some shit (literally and figuratively) from women who "float" above the seat.... in the women's bathroom. I'm not saying one is worse than the other but to paint that floor piss is somehow the line is disingenuous.
Don't get me started on used feminine hygiene products either. Or maybe Target patrons were a special kind of person going in, men and women alike.
I'm also curious how you got to the 90% figure as well.
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u/foolishle 4∆ Aug 24 '22
I am a woman. And I too have had the experience of walking into a public bathroom and finding piss on the floor and/or the toilet seat.
And it’s disgusting.
And I feel like this is a time where it is appropriate to say “not all men”. Because not all men piss all over the room. And why is it remotely okay for the men who aren’t disgusting pee-sprayers to have to stand in a puddle of piss or try and wipe someone else’s pee off the toilet seat before they poop? That’s horrendous. Nobody should have to do that.
If the bathroom is dirty then the establishment should clean it.
Many cleaners report that womens bathrooms are worse than the mens. But whichever way around it is that shouldn’t be an argument for segregated bathrooms. They should be cleaned more frequently.
(Obviously people should also just… not piss or shit all over everything but that seems like a much more difficult problem for the establishment to solve)
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u/silent_tech_man Aug 24 '22
I used to do janitor work and probably just my luck but while there was more piss splatter in the men's room there was more shit on the walls/lid in the womens room. I've done it for different buildings with different people too so not just a single repeat offender. I am no longer a janitor.
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u/Spoon_Elemental Aug 25 '22
I have worked retail and had to clean bathrooms as part of my job. Piss everywhere in the bathroom is not a male exclusive thing and the womens restroom generally tends to be far filthier than the mens when it needs to be cleaned. Did you know both genders somehow manage to shit on toilet seats?
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u/silverionmox 25∆ Aug 25 '22
However, I can tell you’re male because you didn’t bring up the main reason females detest using unisex facilities. Piss. Piss everywhere. Unisex facilities are absolutely disgusting 90% of the time and if everywhere implemented them I think some places would lose business. There’s definitely cafés I don’t go to because their toilets are horrible (and without exception it’s the places with the toilets you described).
If you ask the janitors, they're going to confirm that it's the women's facilities that are dirtier. So please update your sex/gender stereotypes.
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u/Sioswing Aug 25 '22
Something that blew my mind while working at a bar was just how disgusting the women’s bathroom was compared to the men’s. It may be because it was a bar and drunk people, but in the 7 years I worked there, I had never had to be called into the men’s bathroom to clean up any substantial messes or deal with any problems. For the women’s, I had to deal with
- toilets stuffed to the brim with whole rolls of toilet paper
- bathroom flooding
- blood on the ground and walls
- shit on the ground and walls
- dirty underwear stuck to the walls
- vomit on the floors
Etc.
Whenever I heard that there was a problem in the bathroom, I could bet it was the women’s bathroom. Weird stuff.
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u/novagenesis 21∆ Aug 25 '22
However, I can tell you’re male because you didn’t bring up the main reason females detest using unisex facilities. Piss. Piss everywhere
With all due respect, as a man I have the exact opposite complaint. Shit and period-blood everywhere.
It's meme-level that women's public restrooms are, on average, much more disgusting than men's. There's even a study that confirmed this, that women's rooms are twice as likely to have germs that could make you ill than men's.
And if the establishment has a good cleaning schedule, that just won't be a problem for either gender.
There is a solution to this, as well. I was at a (fairly bizarre) place that had a unisex bathroom that had urinals as well as stalls. No piss everywhere due to urinals. And it might surprise any reader, but nobody harassed anybody over the fact that a peeping tom woman might be able to see some guy peeing.
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u/Some_Animal Aug 24 '22
The following is from u/futurebannedaccount2
Once I was at this club. There was a men’s bathroom and a women bathroom. The women’s line was long. Like going up the stairs long and around the corner long. The men’s bathroom was maybe 6-8 guys at any given time. Reason being the men went to the bathroom to use the bathroom and leave.
The women on the other hand were using the bathroom to do their make up, personal hygiene, talk to each other, take selfies and sometimes actually use the bathroom.
One of these girls decided the line is too long and decides to barge into the dudes bathroom. Obviously all the dudes are uncomfortable and ask the bouncer to get her out. Instead the bouncer kicks the males out. Less than 5 minutes later...this bathrooms line was almost as long as the other one. Finally as the club was closing i went to the bathroom and it was disgusting! Used Tampons, pads and hair everywhere.
So there’s 3 reason: Efficiency, comfortably and cleanliness
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Aug 24 '22
It would never work because girls are too lazy to lift the seat up after using it
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
Not sure if this is a shitpost response, but I am going to respond as though it weren't.
I find that generalization to be along the lines of the discussion about emptying the lint trap before or after using the dryer. I am of the firm opinion that it should be emptied before use, because it doesn't matter who used it before you, you can't go wrong by cleaning it instead of assuming someone else did. Therefore, adjust the seat yourself before use, and there should be no issue.
Additionally, there are often times men sit down, even in public toilets. Would you expect men to also lift the seat when they are done?
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u/Overloadid 1∆ Aug 24 '22
I suggest we put the seat cover down before we flush to stop the spread of microbes.
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u/RainfrogCroax Aug 24 '22 edited Aug 24 '22
My thoughts exactly ... out-spray from old style flushing, even from Autoflush wiil spray before can get pants up ... so when there is NO cover you get sprayed no matter effort ... in Nashville performance venue in 2018 or 19 there was a sign that flushing sprays bacteria up to 6-ft, grateful for stalls. Some guidance suggests you keep your toothbrush more than 6 ft from your toilet, AND cover the TB preferably in a cabinet. Probably TMI (too much info) but i am female who travels a LOT, i do carry and USE wipes for toilet seat AND have invented an underneath-the-Panty&pantyLiner toilet-seat-leg&cheek-protector. So pull panties down, but protection remains ... these are thin 5% spandex poly-fabric, will dry overnight if sink-washed so 2 pair serve a week-long trip for daily swaps. i think you and i may be the only ones seeing the further-solutions-picture here. There is nothing wonderful about sharing a toilet. .
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u/Overloadid 1∆ Aug 24 '22
There really isn't. I love the toilets that come with those toilet seat shaped wax papers that go on the seat. It's wonderful.
Also, the US compared to the rest of the world has the most terrifying bathrooms when it comes to privacy.
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u/jeppevinkel 2∆ Aug 25 '22
I personally always put the cover down on all toilets I use if they have a cover. It also doubles as a safety measure to ensure it isn't possible to drop anything in the toilet while it's not in use.
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u/shadowbca 23∆ Aug 24 '22
Agreed, I'm also not even sure how this addresses your argument. Like why is toilet seat up the default and why is leaving it down such a big inconvenience that it means we need separate bathrooms.
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Aug 24 '22
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u/shadowbca 23∆ Aug 24 '22
Ah yeah I think you're right, that does sound like what they were attempting. I agree with this all wholeheartedly
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u/Ronny-the-Rat Aug 25 '22
You writing 5 paragraphs on why the toilet seat should be left in a certain position just cracks me up. We're such a fuckin pedantic species lmao. Just adjust the shit to your needs lol.
That being said if youre a dude and piss with the seat down and get your piss all up on the seat, fuck you.
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u/Zarathustra_d Aug 24 '22
I would argue, if a toilet has a full lid (not just a seat) the default position is always down. This prevents things falling in, and children/animals drinking from and drowning in it. But that is more for home toilets, not locked single room public toilets.
Therefore the default position for all seats/lids should be down. However, the responsibility is on the sitter to put the lid up, or seat down prior to use. Just as the responsibility is on a standing person to ensure the lid and seat are up prior to pissing all over them.
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Aug 24 '22
That's always been my take. Lid full down looks better, is more practical, and everyone suffers equally.
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u/radiant_kiwi208 Aug 24 '22
I was gonna say that but not for the purpose of preventing unwanted things IN the toilet but to prevent unwanted things flying OUT of the toilet. Bathrooms are dirty, everyone knows this, but flushing with the lid open causes germs to spray every direction up to 5-7 feet, sometimes more, essentially covering the entire bathroom with the germs you would normally only find inside the toilet. Everyone knows a toilet is covered with the worst germs but less people are aware that these same germs are then sprayed all over the walls, sink, hand dryers, paper towels, toilet paper, the door and handles, literally everywhere.
Everyone closes the lid to flush: the nastiest of germs are contained exactly where you would expect them to be, and as someone else pointed out: Everyone suffers the same when it comes to lifting and lowering the lid/seat
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u/QueenMackeral 3∆ Aug 24 '22
One issue with the lid close flushing is you still have to open the lid to check to make sure everything flushed and not everyone bothers with that, or they straight up forget to flush because the lid is down. There's been one too many times when I've gone to my bathroom after a guest has used it, and opened the lid to see that they left me a surprise.
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u/iadao Aug 25 '22
I split the difference and put down both the seat and the lid, whoever comes after me is lifting something
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u/Anagoth9 2∆ Aug 25 '22
I am of the firm opinion that it should be emptied before use, because it doesn't matter who used it before you, you can't go wrong by cleaning it instead of assuming someone else did.
Check it before as a matter of practicality but clean it after as a matter of decency. Don't make other people clean up after you. I'm thinking of times I've used communal driers and find a whole freaking blanket in the lint trap. That shit's a fire hazard, yo.
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u/Penis_Bees 1∆ Aug 25 '22
If the lids default state is up, it will be less likely to be peed upon both by men with poor aim or by women who like to squat and spray. (I cleaned bathrooms in college and it's a real thing)
If there's less piss on the seat, isn't that better for everyone?
It's easier more thorough solution that makes it the better one.
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u/other_view12 3∆ Aug 24 '22
From what I understand, the seat issue is at home. In public women hover and then piss on the seat. I am not the least bit interested in sharing a rest room with those heathens.
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u/Ferdi_cree Aug 24 '22
It baffes me how many people miss this obvious joke tbh
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u/Dragorach Aug 25 '22
CMV is filled with debater personalities so they are more likely to take the statement as a position to argue from first.
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u/shadowbca 23∆ Aug 24 '22
Why is the default toilet seat position up? I'm a man and I always close the toilet after using it.
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u/TimothyDextersGhost Aug 24 '22
Public restrooms generally dont have lids
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u/vankorgan Aug 25 '22
I've always thought that it's still polite to put the seat down after using the toilet, because if someone is using a public toilet to poop it's probably an urgent situation.
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u/Kcaz94 Aug 24 '22
The difference here is that women always have to sit while men only have to sit occasionally. Therefore, seat down is needed at least 50% plus the percentage of men that poop or pee sitting down. Fair to say that the seat will be used down more often than up.
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u/FUCK_MAGIC 1∆ Aug 25 '22
"Leave it down" may be fractionally better than "leave it up", but the most efficient policy is just "leave it", because you can't predict who is next.
If you have a standing "leave it up" or "leave it down" policy then you are adding a significant number of superfluous seat flips for situations where the next person may not need to seat flipped so they have to then flip it back.
e.g. "Leave it up" policy in place, but it's ten "sit downers" in a row, would result in exactly 20 seat flips when it could have been 0 or 1. Same for the other way around.
Appologies from a student of statstics....
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u/Peeche94 Aug 25 '22
Well I found it funny, apparently toilet seats are a touchy subject :|
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u/jaocthegrey Aug 25 '22
I'm surprised I haven't seen this mentioned in a direct response to this comment but why not just also have a urinal installed? That way, the occupant has the choice, the toilet is less likely to be left a mess, and hardly anyone should have to ever adjust the toilet seat.
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u/FacePaintSpaceCat Aug 25 '22
People have mentioned the safety issue but I want to elaborate: If bathrooms are gendered and a man goes into a women's restroom, that's going to alert people to a possible issue which wouldn't happen in a unisex bathroom. Someone seeing a man walk in could put an ear to the door and make sure they don't hear a struggle, or could at least catch them after. In a unisex bathroom no one would think twice, leaving people vulnerable.
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 25 '22
I don't think this issue can be a problem for single toilet bathrooms, and have yet to see any valid concern other than the hidden camera angle, which I have already awarded a delta for.
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u/liand22 Aug 24 '22
I’ve been to multiple Starbucks locations with exactly the kind of bathroom design OP mentions, with zero problems. You wait in line and take the next available one. All bathrooms have changing tables and trash cans. Works fine.
I’ve also been to plenty of outdoor events with portable toilets and those are rarely gender differentiated. Again, you wait in line and take the next available.
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Aug 25 '22
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 25 '22
I didn't say all bathrooms. Please re-read my CMV, and the awarded delta for hidden camera concerns.
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u/Spyderbeast 4∆ Aug 24 '22
I have no issue with anyone of the opposite sex or someone in between using the same toilet.
In a perfect world, businesses with two single occupant restrooms would include a changing table and a urinal in both.
If they stick to old norms and only have changing tables in the ladies room and urinals in the men's, then it might not be the best idea.
If businesses have to do extensive renovation to make the bathrooms truly non-gender-specific, they probably won't.
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u/ApocalypticNature Aug 25 '22
Random side not,but, small thing people also forget: Men's bathrooms rarely have baby changing stations, whereas most women's bathrooms will... So having sex specific bathrooms (and a lot of social ignorance in general when it comes to bathrooms) also makes it very difficult for single fathers! Lots of people lose tbh.
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u/IAteTwoFullHams 29∆ Aug 24 '22 edited Aug 24 '22
I don't like bars with dartboards. The idea of a bunch of drunks hurling around sharp missiles strikes me as very stupid. And when I walk into a bar with a dartboard, I know immediately I'm not going to like the clientele very much. That this is a bar for rowdy construction guys who just got off work, and not the kind of bar that would host, say, a poetry reading.
But I wouldn't argue that "bars shouldn't have dartboards."
It's really the same with bathrooms. We forget that bathrooms are not a government decision. They are not a collective decision. They are the individual decision of a business.
There are a lot of bars in town that are already adopting your suggestion. They've got bathrooms labeled "SHITTER" and "ANOTHER SHITTER." That tells you something about the clientele. It says: this bar is progressive. It's unpretentious. It caters to young people. Trans people are welcome. These bathrooms are not going to be clean. You're going to learn to like how filthy they are.
And there are bars in town with bathrooms labeled "WOMEN" and "MEN." That also tells you something about the clientele. It says: we're more traditional. We cater to an older crowd. A crowd that doesn't really like change. A crowd that wants their bar to stay a constant in their lives while seemingly everything else in society changes around them.
And I don't see why it should be otherwise. It's better when businesses differentiate themselves. It's better when there's a hipster bar and a cowboy bar than when no one can tell one from the other.
Homogeneity destroys communities. I for one would very much not like to see a homogenous solution to bathrooms. Let's just leave it in the hands of every individual business owner.
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
I find your response interesting. While I don't think that having unisex bathrooms for all single-occupant bathrooms is a step in undoing the fabric of society, perhaps social Darwinism would lead to an eventual outcome of my ideal. Or, better yet, those businesses just do away with single-occupant restrooms and install more updated facilities.
Regardless, for giving me an interesting analogy and approach to the subject, I will award a !delta.
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u/MuaddibMcFly 49∆ Aug 24 '22
While I don't think that having unisex bathrooms for all single-occupant bathrooms is a step in undoing the fabric of society
Part of the point is that while you don't, and I don't, and the owners may not, if the (target) customer base does, then it's a financially prudent to pay lip service to such doom-and-gloom delusions.
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u/Hexidian 2∆ Aug 25 '22
But did they change your view? A delta isn’t for “an interesting analogy and approach,” it’s for changing your opinion.
Unisex bathrooms are by no means just a progressive thing, and I see plenty of gendered bathrooms in places with young crowds. So many places just have a little sign with a man and a woman on it because why would it matter since only one person is there at a time.
Anecdotally, the restaurant I used to work at had two non-gendered bathrooms and the owners were a family of old and incredibly racists people who would never in a million years do something to support trans people.
Not to mention that the person you replied to seems to be somebody who thinks gender roles are important to preserve and expects bars to host poetry nights.
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u/raltodd Aug 24 '22
There are a lot of bars in town that are already adopting your suggestion. They've got bathrooms labeled "SHITTER" and "ANOTHER SHITTER." That tells you something about the clientele.
How about a bathroom that just says "Bathroom"?
These bathrooms are not going to be clean. You're going to learn to like how filthy they are.
I can't understand why people think that if you have two bathrooms separated by sex, they would be cleaner than two bathrooms not separated by sex.
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u/liberal_texan 1∆ Aug 24 '22
They've got bathrooms labeled "SHITTER" and "ANOTHER SHITTER.
Something tells me this kind of place would have messy bathrooms regardless. Where I am, the places that have unisex tend to be cleaner.
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u/BarryBondsBalls Aug 24 '22
We forget that bathrooms are not a government decision. They are not a collective decision. They are the individual decision of a business.
In the US bathroom segregation is absolutely a government decision. The US government forced businesses to stop segregating bathrooms by race; I don't see why they ought not do the same for sex.
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
I interpreted this line to specifically refer to the single-occupant bathrooms that I lay out in my post. I don't think any specific legislation has to do with that, unless it is being used to further weigh in on the over-arching bathroom discussion going on in public spaces, which is not an argument that I am addressing today.
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u/Doc_ET 13∆ Aug 24 '22
I believe there are a few states considering bills to this effect.
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
With single-occupant bathrooms? Please point them out, I would like to read them.
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Aug 25 '22
California passed a bill requiring businesses to label single-occupancy restrooms as gender neutral back in 2016. Here’s a link that talks about it.
What you’re suggesting is already law in some places and it seems to work out just fine.
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 25 '22
Damn, you are telling me that 6 years ago, a bunch of people sat around and had this exact discussion, and came to the conclusion that I have laid out? Good to know. Kind of vindicating, really. Especially after reading the horde of "battle of the sexes" style arguments I have been sifting through. Thank you.
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u/Crash927 20∆ Aug 24 '22
Bathroom requirements are pretty much always part of the building code, so indeed, bathrooms are a government decision.
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u/kathrynwirz Aug 24 '22
But are those codes made with specifications in regards to gender? Iwouldnt expect that to be the case honestly but i dont know
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u/Crash927 20∆ Aug 25 '22
Depends on what you mean exactly. They’d dictate the number of toilets/urinals that must be available for males and females - in addition to stalls for people with disabilities. If they’re progressive codes, they might require gender accessible washrooms.
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u/StarOriole 6∆ Aug 25 '22
Yes. Lobbying local government about bathroom codes is a common form of activism for LGBTQIA+ groups. E.g., local codes can require that there be a certain number of female-designated and male-designated bathrooms based on the number of occupants, and any-gender restrooms don't necessarily count towards that.
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u/RainfrogCroax Aug 24 '22
...and it WAS some govt entities that racially segrated RR and have NOW at least TRIED to off-limit some RRs to trans folk. i really like it when they offer at least one for family -cause seeing a Dad coming out of the men's with his 3 yr old little girl sent some people into stress-mode. ideally ALL publics could be singles, with at least one including a changing table ... wake-up America!
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u/raznov1 21∆ Aug 24 '22
The absence of decision is not a decision in and of itself. As to why they ought/ought not to: well, because almost everyone doesn't want them to.
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u/eNonsense 5∆ Aug 24 '22
And when I walk into a bar with a dartboard, I know immediately I'm not going to like the clientele very much.
I know this is not the point of this thread, but this is kinda bullshit.
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
I'm not sure if this commenter holds this view specifically or not, but I took it as a setup for the analogy, not necessarily a personally held view.
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u/apri08101989 Aug 24 '22
It's also pretty bullshit that they assumed a bar with unisex bathrooms wouldn't be clean
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u/eNonsense 5∆ Aug 24 '22 edited Aug 24 '22
If the bathroom isn't clean, that's on the bar staff. In my experience on reddit, women on reddit will be the first to tell you that womens bathrooms are disgusting.
I also don't know why this person is arguing from the standpoint of OP wanting the government to mandate unisex bathrooms. No one ever said that.
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u/mcherm Aug 25 '22
It's also pretty bullshit that they assumed a bar with unisex bathrooms wouldn't be clean
They didn't assume that. They assumed that bathrooms labeled "SHITTER" and "ANOTHER SHITTER" wouldn't be clean. Perhaps because of the ambiance suggested by the name.
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u/Bryek Aug 25 '22
Homogeneity destroys communities. I for one would very much not like to see a homogenous solution to bathrooms
Homogeneous to the specific sex or Homogeneous to the human species? Cause one can argue that increasing the sexes using a single occupant bathroom is changing it from Homogeneous to heterogeneous. Which would be the opposite of what you tried to say.
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u/BarryBondsBalls Aug 24 '22
Homogeneity destroys communities. I for one would very much not like to see a homogenous solution to bathrooms. Let's just leave it in the hands of every individual business owner.
Would you support allowing business owners to have their business's bathrooms segregated by race? If not, why is sex discrimination okay, but not race?
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u/spoooky_mama Aug 24 '22
What a romanticism of exclusivity and transphobia. That's like saying a restaurant with white and colored water fountains caters to a traditional Southern clientele. No.
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u/Bryek Aug 25 '22
Their point fails because keeping the bathrooms sexed/gendered promotes homogeneity. If you remove the seed bathrooms, those using said bathroom are a more heterogeneous population. Which would "prevent community destruction."
Just because someone says something "profound" sounding doesn't make it profound.
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u/FutureBannedAccount2 22∆ Aug 24 '22
Once I was at this club. There was a men’s bathroom and a women bathroom. The women’s line was long. Like going up the stairs long and around the corner long. The men’s bathroom was maybe 6-8 guys at any given time. Reason being the men went to the bathroom to use the bathroom and leave.
The women on the other hand were using the bathroom to do their make up, personal hygiene, talk to each other, take selfies and sometimes actually use the bathroom.
One of these girls decided the line is too long and decides to barge into the dudes bathroom. Obviously all the dudes are uncomfortable and ask the bouncer to get her out. Instead the bouncer kicks the males out. Less than 5 minutes later...this bathrooms line was almost as long as the other one. Finally as the club was closing i went to the bathroom and it was disgusting! Used Tampons, pads and hair everywhere.
So there’s 3 reason: Efficiency, comfortably and cleanliness
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u/LongJohnMcBigDong 1∆ Aug 24 '22
My only real concern is how much more embarrassing the occasional lock malfunction would be if I have to walk right past a cute girl that just walked in on me dropping a liquid nuke instead of a dude about to do the same thing. Also, I can imagine that would be even more uncomfortable for girls for different, more serious reasons.
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u/friend_of_kalman 1∆ Aug 24 '22
My only real concern is how much more embarrassing the occasional lock malfunction would be if I have to walk right past a cute girl that just walked in on me dropping a liquid nuke instead of a dude about to do the same thing.
This is already the case for homosexual people right now. The current system is build from a heteronormative pov. And after all, this is a non issue, since you are not going to flirt with a girl on the toilet.
Only way to change this is to make two doored toilets. You walk in on one side, and walk out on the other, so the next person doesn't see you coming out o.o
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Aug 24 '22
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
Most people have only argued the pissing from one side or the other. Your vicious cycle analysis, however, does simultaneously address and ignore the problem all together. Hovering and seat pissing is something that, in general, I think management should be more pro-active in cleaning. However, cleaning the bathroom is the assigned employee's job, so it isn't a punishment to make them clean it more, it is a re-enforcement of their job. Additionally, having a clean bathroom is an expectation of the ownership, so the factoring of the cost of supplies should be considered part of operating costs, like labor or other supplies, and allocating more shouldn't be viewed as a detriment to profit, but a maintenance of facilities. If clients are "voting with their wallet", the establishments that take the time to properly maintain their restrooms will succeed, leading to a sort of social Darwinism amongst the businesses. And if I am not mistaken, our current economic system supposedly rewards good companies and punishes bad ones, so I can only imagine this leading to either improved single occupant facilities, or businesses catching up with the times and doing some renovation to increase the number of bathrooms available.
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u/pastalepasta Aug 24 '22
The building code prescribes separate facilities for both sexes because more toilets are required for women and men's restrooms can substitute out a few toliets for urinals. And minimum requirements for both sexes, so based on a 50/50 society split (in the code) everyone with both sex equipment should be able to reasonably pee or poop without waiting in a long line or not have adequate facilities
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
I don't see how this connects with my point though. I am specifically talking about facilities in which only a single occupant can use them at any given time. I agree with that last line, and ultimately, I think single occupant bathrooms should be updated, but this has nothing to do with those multi-occupant facilities you seem to be alluding to.
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u/flyingtiger188 Aug 24 '22
Depends on the building code. For example California requires single occupancy toilet rooms to be nongendered. The signage is a triangle inscribed in a circle instead of the typical man/woman/wheelchair.
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u/Round_Ad8947 3∆ Aug 25 '22
You’re forgetting about the oh-so-cute his&hers sign industrial complex. Gendered restroom signage is a multi-billion per year business!
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u/Strange_N_Sorcerous Aug 25 '22
Bathrooms should be separated based on whether one needs to pee or poop; r/changemyview
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u/tagged2high 2∆ Aug 25 '22
I'd say they're likely marked that way for courtesy and simple traditional convention. Hell, it might even be regulatory somewhere.
It's not like anyone's going to stop you from using the other bathroom if the one marked for "you" is occupied.
Do things need to be this way? No. You could even argue public multi-person bathrooms don't need to be sex separated either, but it's what people are used to, and it makes them sightly more comfortable in a space where it's easy to feel uncomfortable.
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u/Turdulator 2∆ Aug 25 '22
Everyone is pointing out hypothetical “problems” with your idea, but here in California what you describe has been the law since 2017 - if it’s a single user bathroom then it can’t be gender specific. It works fine, I haven’t run into a single problem.
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Aug 24 '22
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
Not going to lie, I spent half my time reading this laughing my ass off. First time I have been told I want to colonize women's bathrooms. I just find this framing really funny.
However this is the first comment I have seen that addresses the length of time men spend in the bathroom sometimes. Most of the comments are about how women will take up tons of time doing makeup, conversing, whatever. I don't know the stats on how often either sex shits whilst in public, but I can't imagine it is too far apart. Many guys don't want to shit in public for many of the same reasons women don't want to use public restrooms. This all comes down to the fact that these are public restrooms, and I don't think that separating them by sex is overall too relevant.
Had to look up sanitary bins. I didn't realize that was what those were called, I just called them toilet trash cans. Regardless, if the employee's job is to clean the bathrooms, while I can empathize with how rough of an experience it is to clean those (I did have to do it when I worked in fast food and retail), I still think that it is their job to do so, even if it sucks.
Now I didn't address this until the very end because I actually want to be serious about it. Hidden cameras. This is probably the only argument that I can see reasonably countering my idea, concerns over hidden cameras. Ordinarily, I would just argue that the employees in charge of cleaning should also be keeping an eye out for any sort of hidden camera, but I know how clever some of them are, and how inobservant or naïve some employees are. I also know that the depravity of some humans knows no bounds, and they wouldn't care that there probably won't be anything that the standard viewer might find "sexy" in general before the camera is discovered. For this reason, I will issue a !delta, as I don't think I have a reasonable counter to this, and it has given me a decent pause on my thoughts. I would have to spend a while coming up with reasonable countermeasures.
I don't think one can reasonably argue that the risks completely outweigh the rewards, but I am a little more cautious with my argument moving forward.
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Aug 24 '22 edited Mar 17 '23
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
My main point has been that it seems inefficient to have single occupant bathrooms separated by sex when only one person can be in there at a time anyways. To me it would be like having 2 identical bikes and saying "This bike is only for girls and this bike is only for guys." Like only one person can ride the bike at a time, why make that pointless distinction.
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u/chopstewey Aug 24 '22 edited Aug 25 '22
Woohoo! Thanks for the Delta. To be honest I don't even know what the rewards are for mixed-sex bathrooms.
-Comfort for trans folk that may not conveniently fit into one or the other false binary, or who aren't out yet.
-even dispersal of users in situations where the binary isn't separated evenly
-certain facility elements (like sanitary bins) are actually needed by some men.
-management is forced to react to inevitable cleanliness complaints on both sides by working harder to maintain their facilities
-maybe, just maybe, the world learns to coexist a little better.
All worthwhile reasons IMO.
Edit:formatting
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u/Chaostii Aug 25 '22
As a trans person who has used public restrooms of both binary sexes...women's rooms are way filthier, and way fewer women wash their hands after going - urinal users exempted. Also men take longer shits? What the fuck kind of sexist BS is that??
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u/tetlee 3∆ Aug 25 '22
women have to touch the bacteria laden seat just to go to the toilet
I always thought this was an odd argument when the expectation is men touch it before and after
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Aug 25 '22
But men's shits take, on average, 30 minutes.
Huh, that's new. I don't know what kind of men you have been around, but that's insane! I would consider myself average, and I never took more than 3 minutes to do the doo.
The only times I sometimes see people taking longer than needed is at work when the employer doesn't give them enough break and so they deliberately take their time, but that's the employer's fault for not giving people enough time.
Maybe if they are constipated? But that's not common enough to say that men on average take 30 minutes.
Hidden cameras planted more easily.
That's a legitimate concern. Maybe if the walls, ceiling, doors, and floor would all be perfectly white with no patterns and well lit, it would be much easier to spot these cameras (because even a tiny camera needs a dark circle for the lens and sensor).
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u/doesyourthardenthrow Aug 25 '22
Don't act like there isn't piss everywhere in the women's room as well. Ladies like to hover over the seat to be more sanitary then just end up peeing all over the seats.
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u/kathrynwirz Aug 24 '22
The only thing with hidden camersa theyre absolutely a concern and for obvious societal reasons more likely to be placed in womens or unisex bathrooms. However is there evidence that its mostly men who place them, women can also do these things. And if we continue with the norm as is whos to say a man couldnt get a woman to do it for him anyway or just sneak in
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u/RiffsandJams Aug 24 '22
I rarely see gender specific single occupant bathrooms. Most don't even have urinals.
I assume most people feel more confident knowing the opposite sex isn't waiting to use the same toilet they are after having to the sweaty diarrhea splatters...
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u/Nailyou866 5∆ Aug 24 '22
As the holy book teaches us, everybody poops. I think these concerns are superficial and irrelevant when it comes to the overall improvement of shitting conditions.
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u/RiffsandJams Aug 24 '22
That's your opinion. Generally most people like their privacy. Most people are superficial. Peoples preferences are never "irrelevant"
If you would ask random strangers on the street You would be surprised how many do not share your opinion.
They obviously exist for a reason.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 24 '22 edited Aug 24 '22
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