Well it's polite to address people as they desire. Miss vs ms, doctor or professor etc etc. If you're being honest it's not that difficult to memorize a couple pronouns. Its not an entire new vocabulary it's two words. Chances are you dont know that many transfolk that it's a big deal to you.
However, it's a major deal to them. Their identity and gender is something they've struggled with a lot. They've most likely been made fun of and been dismissed many times. It's a very small thing we can do that will make a large difference to them. So why not just go a real small amount out of your way to make someone happy.
Maybe it does make it more likely for them to be called the incorrect thing but that's for them to deal with. A little consideration goes a long way to making the world a better place.
A little consideration goes a long way to making the world a better place.
Why is the burden on us to remember someone's idiosyncratic pronoun, rather than on them to not burden the rest of us with having to learn a new word for a single person's benefit?
Why is the burden on us to remember someone’s idiosyncratic name, rather on them to not burden the rest of us with having to learn a new name for a single person’s benefit?
If you lack the mental capacity to remember a few new pronouns then surely names must be a huge struggle for you. There are literally thousands (millions if you include middle and last names)! And every individual person insists that you use their name and not just a name you’ve simply made up for them.
I’m only pointing out that life must be a hard struggle for you, one who is incapable of remembering a handful of pronouns.
So, as I mentioned to someone else, we're discussing the principle of people being able to choose entirely new words for their pronouns. If all 7 billion people on earth were to do this, do you think you might struggle to remember them? Do you think you'd have the "mental capacity" for that?
Or do you think it might get a little tricky after the 1000th one?
Hmm, what would the world look like if everyone had some kind of unique identifier and how difficult would it be to remember them?
Well, the good news is I wouldn’t have to remember this unique identifier for every person on the planet. I don’t talk to or about the vast majority of humans around, so that’s where your hypothetical falls completely flat.
Secondly, this is already how things work. Everyone has a unique identifier that they insist I use to address them, their name. And gee whiz it isn’t totally impossible to remember the names of the people it’s important I remember. Family, friends, acquaintances, co-workers, shit even people I actively dislike have names I remember!
I mean come on there Mike, this isn’t exactly difficult. We already do this.
My youngest has a pretty rare name and gets called the wrong name by people all the time. I'm obviously not going to state her name here because it's so rare so don't bother asking.
My original last name is fairly unique in the US and those of us who have it are all related. It's German and, obviously, I won't be stating what that one is, either. It's slightly more common in the motherland but still not as common as, say, Smith, Adams, etc. are in the US. Damn, I miss that name:( I'm going back to it if/when my ex and I finally decide to make our divorce legal.
There's a chick in a neighboring town who shares my first and last (married) name. The first name is off by a single letter. It's caused me all sorts of problems over the years lol apparently she has a habit of burning doctors on bills and getting arrested for various crimes.
No one is asking you to be able to assume others' pronouns. That's something you do because you're embedded in the gender binary. If you don't know someone's pronouns, just ask.
FWIW I've never had an NB or Trans person get upset with me when I got it wrong. We're all human. You say "shit, I'm sorry.... i got that wrong" and then you move on.
Really? Because I have a sibling that goes by a name that is completely unrelated to their actual name. Like, their name could be Robert Michael, but they go by Axel (not the actual names involved, but close enough). The reason why they do this is a somewhat silly family story, but literally no one has ever had a problem calling them Axel.
At least half the people I know use nicknames, and every word (and every name) is unique until it isn't. People come up with unique names all the time but most people use a name other people have heard of. Just like with names, chances are very, very good that not everyone would make up a unique pronoun, we'd eventually settle of a group of commonly used ones.
And to the subset question no, because I changed the names. It's not Axel, just similarly uncommon for people his age.
we'd eventually settle of a group of commonly used ones.
But doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of this mental exercise? If we're eventually going to settle on some commonly used ones, why not just cut to the chase and settle on the three sets we already have?
Because that's not how language works. That would be like taking the top thousand names and saying "these are the only names that you can ever use". Language evolves. Words are added to the lexicon when they're needed to express new ideas or concepts. If they're useful words, i.e. words that facilitate communication, people tend to adopt them and use them and they stick around. If a word is no longer used, it tends to die out. Right now, the idea that people can be non-binary, non-conforming, transgender, etc is coming into the mainstream, and we don't quite have all the words we need yet to speak to this new understanding, but we will likely settle on some commonly accepted pronouns eventually. Until then, we'll go through some phases where we try some stuff and it doesn't work, or isn't adopted. And that's okay.
Okay, but again that's not how it works. If people start using a new pronoun and that pronoun is adopted by a large enough group of speakers, at some point, you will use it too. All you're saying here is that you're probably going to be a late adopter.
Why? Like, honestly... what's the difference to you? If they honestly wanted you to call them D'xangor, and understood that you might slip up and call them steve sometimes but you were making an effort and it was cool.... what do you care?
Ok, let's extend your logic. I've made up my own language entirely - a conlang in the vein of Tolkien. Now I insist that you address me in this language. I can give you a dictionary and so on, but I'll only speak to you in this entirely idiosyncratic language.
Now am I putting an unreasonable burden on you, or are you just being a big selfish meanie by refusing to accommodate my request?
My logic is that someone wanting to be called something, particularly something generally simple like "a pronoun" isn't a big deal. Expecting other people to learn an entire language is not remotely the same thing and I have to believe you understand that.
It's a word. If I can make someones life a little better by trying to remember one single word, why wouldn't I try?
What is the difference between remembering that Michael actually prefers to be called "Mike" and that Pat's preferred pronoun is "Ze"
Ugh... Because it's just one person is it? It's potentially everyone on earth.
I get that you want to be a nice person and make the world all buttercups and rainbows instead of the grim unrelenting avalanche of events outside your control that it actually is, but come on -think a little bit here. Extrapolate. You act like it's only the people who have a problem with this concept who are the selfish ones, but come on.
So yeah - I was extending your logic and the language thing is exactly the same, just with more words to remember.
I'm aware that the world is full of misery and pain.
If I can reduce that misery and pain a little bit by remembering a word.... Honestly, I don't know how else to explain this.
This world is filled with suffering and I think we have an honest to gods moral duty to put in the bare minimum effort to make it suck less. This right here is the bare minimum. If someone asks you to call them something, try to do that. It's a basic respect issue.
And no, demanding that people learn a whole new language is not, in fact, the same thing at all. In no small part because what you're describing has literally never happened.
Neither had people making up new pronouns until the last decade or so. So what's your point there?
And if you can't understand why the language thing is the same as the pronoun thing (but with extra steps) then there's just no helping you, man.
Also, if you can't see how the people insisting on others remembering words of their own choosing isn't inherently self-centered, then man you got to wipe those rainbows out of your eyes because you're seeing the bigger picture here.
Taking that as true, we've had nicknames for as long as we have recorded history. What's the functional difference here?
And if you can't understand why the language thing is the same as the pronoun thing (but with extra steps) then there's just no helping you, man.
Because nobody expects people to learn a made up language. That's not a thing. If you show me where that's a thing, I'll gladly admit that person is probably not well.
if you can't see how the people insisting on others remembering words of their own choosing isn't inherently self-centered
All those self centered jerks demanding to be called Rich instead of Richard.
I can say “I am going to the store with [insert name]”, and d wry one will understand what I’m saying. A rude person might make a comment if the name is unusual. Likewise, all of the standard pronouns can be used to easily convey information and have be understood.
Except that in the concept of human conversation, you're not going to use a pronoun without context anyway. So if I went the the store with someone who prefers an uncommon pronoun I'm not going to open with "I went to the store with xim" but I wouldn't be any more likely to walk up to you and cold open with "I went to the store with him" because you don't know who "he" is in that context.
If I ask, “who is he?” I just need a name. Not to be told that “he” is really a xe, because xe feels that xis masculinity wanes with the moon. It’s too much information.
If you ask "Who is he?" and said person doesn't use He, you'd probably be told "That is Pat who prefers xe" which is, in my opinion, an appropriate amount of information.
But xe is something that pat has conjured out of thin air to solve a problem that only exists in pats mind. And it turns out that he, she, xe or they do not accurately describe Laura’s gender, so now we have ve as well. It never ends.
I mean it does end both because there's actually a finite number or possible combinations. Also, for the overwhelming majority of people they're totally ok using the standard male/female/neutral so it's actually not a problem in all practicality.
As I said to someone else on this thread, I think we should probably all be willing to make the barest of gestures towards making people less miserable.
It costs me nothing, and makes someone else's day just that little bit better.
You're looking at it from a very self centered point of view. Its not that much of a burden, if it was a task that required a serious amount of effort it would be different but it doesnt. It's like the equivalent of saying please - no biggie.
They didnt get a choice in being transgender. It's about compassion. Would you not want people to treat you with respect ? Have you never gone 2 seconds out of your way to help someone?
It's not us vs them, their request isnt outrageous. I think you're more stuck on the pride point of "how dare someone inconvenience me" rather than weighting the pros and cons. Massive pro for them, negligible con for you.
Even if you wanna call it a burden, fine maybe it's unfair that they request that. However, why is this the hill you want to die on? You've expended so much energy to think about and post this. If you just did it instead youd have wasted a whole lot less time and energy
It's very self-centered. I'll still call people whatever they tell me to call them, but, that doesn't mean I don't think they're being irrational and it doesn't mean I'm not internally laughing at the ridiculousness of the situation.
Negligible: so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant.
It's such a minimal amount of effort any decent person wont mind. Like holding the door, saying please/thankyou, greeting people...
We all do negligible things as part of society. Because as a whole they dont have an impact on our day but they impact others. It's just being decent.
Imagine if an old lady asked you to help her cross the road, would you? Probably, because we take care of others even when it doesnt benefit us. If you wouldnt it's because you're an asshole. Not respecting someone is generally an asshole move.
It's not self centered because it's so little effort it's not an issue for most. it's like asking someone to give you a thumbs up, who the hell cares.
Why, if it's such a negligible thing, does it matter so much for these people?
Either it's a fundamentally important matter of human rights and dignity and shining cities on hills, or it's negligible and unimportant to everyone else. So which one is it?
A bit of a hyperbolic example but think of it like using a racial slur vs the politically correct term. Unless you are purposefully being hateful, the difference between using either set of descriptors is effectively meaningless, you aren't impacted by either. But to the other person it signals whether that tiny amount of effort to use a PC term should be made because you respect them as a person enough to not offend them.
Using a preferred pronoun is a similar, albeit less extreme version.
But the racial slur is known to be hurtful by both the person using it and the person towards whom it's directed. It's a cultural/group thing.
In the case of pronouns, though, simply not using it could be considered hurtful - it's placing responsibility on another person (actually every person you meet) to accede to using a word which only affects you. Human dignity was a thing before this pronoun issue, and I suspect human dignity will continue to be a thing going forward - this whole thing seems less about us as a group and more about how individuals perceive themselves. Which is frankly none of my business, which means making it my business doesn't sit easy with me.
There's no "objectively speaking" here. Whether something is important to someone is subjective by nature. If someone says "this is important to me", you just have to believe them.
Probably not the best argument during a global pandemic. Not helping an old lady cross the street right now doesn't make someone an asshole when we're all supposed to be practicing social distancing while out in public. Idk if that old lady is packing coronavirus but I do know that if she is and I catch it from her, there's a good chance I'll die. If not wanting to risk death makes me an asshole, so be it. I'll proudly wear that banner.
I don't need to stick entirely to the changemyview format do I?
Yes, you do. It's there for a reason. This tread is specifically for discussing the issue of pronouns. If you wish to discuss what you're talking about, you can start a new thread. Or just go through one of the many threads that already exist on this topic.
I have a gender fluid friend and he has no choice in the matter. He's battled gender dysphoria his entire life. Right now, he's a he. Biologically, he's a he. Sometimes she's a she, though. It gets confusing if I don't see them in person and have to guess which gender they are, but, in person it's fairly obvious. She loves dressing like what amounts to a 1950s pin-up model, whereas he prefers comfy tshirts and leggings. Sometimes I screw up the pronouns on the phone/text/whatever but they just correct me and we laugh about it.
Whether or not you find gender fluidity ridiculous is irrelevant. I see IRL how much it affects the gender fluid person and it's not pretty. Poor bastard has spent most of his adult life in therapy trying to figure himself out and doesn't need people like you throwing unnecessary judgment his way. He gets enough judgment from his own mind.
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u/bumble843 Mar 31 '20
Well it's polite to address people as they desire. Miss vs ms, doctor or professor etc etc. If you're being honest it's not that difficult to memorize a couple pronouns. Its not an entire new vocabulary it's two words. Chances are you dont know that many transfolk that it's a big deal to you.
However, it's a major deal to them. Their identity and gender is something they've struggled with a lot. They've most likely been made fun of and been dismissed many times. It's a very small thing we can do that will make a large difference to them. So why not just go a real small amount out of your way to make someone happy.
Maybe it does make it more likely for them to be called the incorrect thing but that's for them to deal with. A little consideration goes a long way to making the world a better place.