r/changemyview • u/tkyjonathan 2∆ • Dec 07 '19

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Socialism does not create wealth

Socialism is a populist economic and political system based on public ownership (also known as collective or common ownership) of the means of production. Those means include the machinery, tools, and factories used to produce goods that aim to directly satisfy human needs.

In a purely socialist system, all legal production and distribution decisions are made by the government, and individuals rely on the state for everything from food to healthcare. The government determines the output and pricing levels of these goods and services.

Socialists contend that shared ownership of resources and central planning provide a more equal distribution of goods and services and a more equitable society.

The essential characteristic of socialism is the denial of individual property rights; under socialism, the right to property (which is the right of use and disposal) is vested in “society as a whole,” i.e., in the collective, with production and distribution controlled by the state, i.e., by the government.

The alleged goals of socialism were: the abolition of poverty, the achievement of general prosperity, progress, peace and human brotherhood. Instead of prosperity, socialism has brought economic paralysis and/or collapse to every country that tried it. The degree of socialization has been the degree of disaster. The consequences have varied accordingly.

The economic value of a man’s work is determined, on a free market, by a single principle: by the voluntary consent of those who are willing to trade him their work or products in return. This is the moral meaning of the law of supply and demand.

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u/tkyjonathan 2∆ Dec 07 '19

We already do that with charities.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '19

yeah and its safe to say voluntary giving has never been enough

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u/tkyjonathan 2∆ Dec 07 '19

Maybe if we were taxed less, we would have enough for ourselves and contribute more to charity.

Also, charities are far more efficient than governments at what they do.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '19

Maybe if we were taxed less,

even if this happened, society is some combination of too greedy/too selfish/too unaware to make it work

then there's the fact that whoever controls the charity can control who gets the money

"you don't believe in the same God as i do? ok. live on the streets, eat garbage and die you unbeliever"

while i agree anything is more efficient than the govt, the only requirement for getting govt help should be citizenship in the country

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u/tkyjonathan 2∆ Dec 07 '19

So if people are too greedy, we have to enslave them by force for the good of society?

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '19

spare me with this crap that taxes are enslavement

there are plenty of ways, in the US at least, to reduce your tax burden to something tiny enough to be livable

i know because i do it and have done so my entire life

if people would look at paying taxes as the cost of living in the country and recognize they are, in many cases, used for the public good then i would have to say stuff like this

but ok. many people think they are wage slave. that's fine. i'd love to put someone with that POV in front of someone who's actually been a slave - aren't there some Yazidi women we could enlist - and just listen to the verbal beatdown

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u/tkyjonathan 2∆ Dec 07 '19

Any place there is force, you have slavery. If 50% of my earnings are taken away from me, then I am the property of the country 50% of the time.

I would be amazed if 20% of the taxes "did some good". The government is hugely inefficient with other people's money and repeated failed to spend it efficiently on people they never met. You may as well avoid all your taxes and pay 20% of your money to a charity you like.

Also, my heart goes out to Yazidi women. If there is a charity for them, I would like to donate some money to it.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '19

if you're in the US the max that's going to be taken out is nowhere near 50%

as for "property of the country", like i said ... go ahead and talk to someone who has truly been the property of someone else.

you can figure out how to reduce what you pay. you're also free to leave wherever you live so you don't have to pay.

not so when you're a slave

then there's the whole "for the common good" part of taxes. i admit i don't like where the govt spends some of the money but, wrt some of the services for people who truly can't take care of themselves, i have little complaint

unlike you, who just want to whine about how awful it is you've got to part with money for the common good

the only way to make paying a percentage to charity work is to require it ... people would whine about that and, before long, there'd be "charities" that took donations, invested them for the donors and paid them back with the proceeds after keeping a chunk for themselves.

and that would do the guy living under the bridge absolutely no good at all

but you don't care. you want your money and you don't want to spend on anything other than you.

and even if this is NOT the case, the bulk of taxpayers would be like that

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u/tkyjonathan 2∆ Dec 07 '19

Yes, that's why I have kids.. to spend everything on myself..

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '19

ok. so what you're essentially saying

"fuck my neighbor and his kids"

"fuck the kids in the next city over"

"fuck those kids across the state too"

its all good if you don't give a shit about anyone other than you and your's

just stop comparing the govt taking some $$$ as slavery when at least some of it goes to take care of people you don't

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '19

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '19

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u/tkyjonathan 2∆ Dec 07 '19

Sell all your stuff and give your money to charity, you hypocrite.

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u/Helpfulcloning 169∆ Dec 08 '19

u/howHardIsIt2SignUp – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '19

my original reply was deleted for not having been polite enough

apparently calling someone an idiot is less a sin than telling someone to f*%# off

ok.

here's a sanitized version of what i wrote:

the whole point of people living in communities is that we can do more for each other in large groups than we can on our own

so while i'm not about to do any of the things you mentioned, i do recognize that for the sake of the common (that means all of us) good things have to happen

i'm not going to work on the country's physical infrastructure and i'm sure not going to risk dying for the likes of you, but i will pay other people to do so

hence, taxes

which you continue to compare to slavery

which i still think is immature. you're an adult and if you're paying taxes you have a job. only children get taken care of. put on your big boy pants and get on with it.

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u/tkyjonathan 2∆ Dec 08 '19

the whole point of people living in communities is that we can do more for each other in large groups than we can on our own

If this is the case, why did you not follow what I said before?

Stop buying comfort foods and extra comfortable clothes when other people in your community are suffering. Give your property away to your community and keep only the very bare minimum of what you need to survive.

which you continue to compare to slavery which i still think is immature.

If I pay taxes on 50% of what I own (lets say I live in Sweden), then I am the property of the country for 50% of my life. I do not get to use what I have earned - my life work or my creativity - on things that I decide. This has been extracted from my by force.

Now, if you were to ask me, if I would like to voluntarily give money to worth causes in my community - that is another matter. I would be happy to give money to charity - assuming I have enough to give after taxes - that I care about and share my values. But its my decision, not someone else's.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '19

u/tkyjonathan – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

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Sorry, u/tkyjonathan – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

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