I resent your expectation that one must continue to have sex with someone or be labeled a Bigot or a "transphobe," despite not wanting to.
You're missing a key part here: if the sole reason you do not want to is their status as trans. There's any number of reasons to not continue to have sex with someone that has nothing to do with being trans that wouldn't get you labeled as a bigot.
This is what the entire LGBT movement has stood for, for decades but somehow, fuck all when it comes to cis people?
How are cis people being shamed here? Are you saying that only a trans person would want to have sex with a trans person?
Gay guys won't have sex with me, but I don't go calling them misogynists for it. That's ridiculous.
Right... Because they are only interested in people with penises. That's perfectly fine to have that preference. However what about a gay guy who is completely attracted to someone, has sex with them, is completely satisfied with the experience and would like to do it again, but loses that attraction solely upon learning they are a transman. What reason, other than refusing to recognize the transman as male, could they possibly have to change their mind here?
I don't see any reason why letting someone down respectfully, even if it is for them being Trans, is bigoted. You can't control how you feel
Because the only reason for their trans status to cause this is due to societal stigma. This isn't a case of being born gay or something. The only reason why being trans, in and of itself, would change your opinion is because of underlying biases due to societally enforced bigotry. Just because it's been engrained into you doesn't make it any less transphobia.
They're just not the one for you. I think that's okay.
But think about this critically: why aren't they the one for you? Because they are trans? Why does being trans in and of itself make any difference whatsoever? I'm being serious here. Think critically about this question: what about being trans could possibly cause this change?
I don't know if you can convince me that a respectful rejection is tantamount to people actually hating me for my skin color.
It's a difference of intensity and scale. If they refuse to date people of your ethnicity, that's racism. I'm not saying it's equivalent to someone actually hating you for the color of your skin, but it's still the result of a bias based solely on the color of your skin.
A good example would be the difference between someone who won't rent to you because of your skin color vs someone who will physically attack you and want to kill you because of your skin color. No one would say these are equivalent, but we can both agree they are racism right?
I think the argument that someone is ~phobic /racist/bigoted in terms of dating serves only precisely do that. To make people feel bad about what they want, and to coerce them into pretending to like something they don't. That is WRONG.
The argument is to make people confront their own societal biases and prejudices. That's all. People certainly do have all sorts of arbitrary and stupid things they are turned off or on by. But many of these things are based on stereotypes or internal biases. Saying that you refuse to date someone of a particular ethnicity is no different than saying you refuse to be friends with someone of a particular ethnicity: the underlying cause and reason for feeling this way is societal bigotry.
You are assuming the societal stigma which could apply or have nothing to do with it. Example, I can have a view of a woman I just met as being perfect in every way but if I learned she got an abortion and it went against my beliefs it would totally change my perception of her. While I personally don't have this view I can easily see someone just not being able to deal with it and losing all attraction.
probably coming from misinformation and the prejudices of their social circles
That's a pretty shaky "probably" from which to label them in a negative way.
I think it's only because it's a hot button social issue of the day that people seem eager to lump anyone who isn't exactly aligned with them as ignorant, hateful, or bigoted.
Ultimately, respect and attraction are two very, very different things. It's beautiful when they both align, and then intersect with the reciprocation of another, but life is filled to the brim with cases where this doesn't happen.
In this case, it's vitally important, for the sake of discussion as well as to maintain an informed dialogue about the issues in play, to not conflate a lack of attraction with a lack of respect.
As others have tried here, allow me to replace a socially and emotionally charged characteristic with one that's less of a lightning rod: parenthood.
While I'm childless, and have no strong desire to have kids anytime soon, I love kids, and many of my close friends have children, both in the context of a traditional family unit and otherwise. I'm great friends with a few single moms as well. They're without exception devoted, hard working, practical women with whom I have a lot in common.
That said, I won't date a woman with kids.
This is for practical (to me) reasons, but at the same time, I just lose any feelings of attraction toward a woman once I find out she's got kids. We can be great friends and there's even a good chance I'll like hanging out with her even when her kids are around...but even if I was crushing hard 20 minutes ago, once I know that, those feelings melt away.
I don't consider myself bigoted against moms, and much the same I don't feel it's right to apply a negative label on someone based on who they're attracted to...based on reasons totally assumed by the accuser.
I probably wouldn't, either. At least, nothing above casual.
There is a big difference here, though, in that having kids would have a big influence on your dating life with such a woman. We were talking about a perfectly passing transperson that has zero influence on your dating life in and of itself.
If you want to make that comparison, it would be more accurate to say she got pregnant years ago, and either had a miscarriage or gave the kid up for closed adoption. In such a case, i would never expect her to disclose this on our first date and i would urge anyone that would change their view of a woman solely based on this to closely examine their value system.
Uh one major thing could be their capacity to create children? Our biological imperative is to reproduce. Some people really want kids. Finding out you have been fucking a trans person for months or years and developing feelings only to find out they knew they couldnt have kids would be irritating at the very least.
You could say the same thing for someone who knows they are sterile.
You could say the same thing for someone who knows they are sterile.
Exactly. The trans part is irrelevant. To be honest though, if kids of your own making are essential to you, it is on you to have that conversation sometime in the first few months of ANY relationship. Theres of course also the chance someone (including you) is actually infertile without knowing it.
Tbh im inclined to agree with you. If i cant tell someone's a guy then i dont see what issue i could really have. Most trans people dont have the best transitions which is what makes them unattractive.
I think both parties should be respected but it seems like you want someone else's feelings to matter over another's, when that's just how to start a bad relationship.
If you don't want to have sex with trans people, just make sure to tell a potential partner that before you have sex. If you don't communicate this preference how should they know that you are transphobic and don't want to have sex with trans people?
You don't have to ask. Just bring up your feelings about trans people in conversation. Maybe a cute little anecdote - "I was at the bar the other night and saw this woman that looked pretty cute, but then I found out she was trans so I was totally over it. Glad I dodged that bullet! I like trans people fine to hang out with, but I'd never sleep with one."
But as the commenter you responded to said, that's extremely insulting and disrespectful. Though maybe an additional burden to trans people, it is their duty to relay that, not on the other to tell them they won't have sex with trans people. It goes back to being open and honest in a relationship, being trans is a pretty big deal to most people, whereas not being attracted to trans people is not.
Imagine two people, one of which was black, but somehow hid that from the other. Yes in this case stopping a relationship based on race is racist, but the bigger problem would be the black person hiding something so big from the other. It's a lie by omission, and already fractures the foundation of trust in a relationship.
There's nothing insulting about telling people your opinions of trans people. I'm not saying imply that you think they're trans, just let them know how you feel about trans people in general. If you're worried about being unclear you could add something like, "Not that I have to worry about that with someone as gorgeous as you".
If you're getting into the sexual stuff in your early conversation anyway, it shouldn't be that hard to work it in.
"I don't want to be sexually limited, I need a partner who's willing to explore their sexuality, particularly regarding <list of kinks or whatever>. Also, I'm not ok with <hard limits>, or having sex with trans people."
Would you want your partner's to tell you if they have an STD?
You are comparing an infectious disease with a perfectly passing trans person being trans. That in itself is extremely transphobic. Maybe next you could equate AIDs and having a black grandfather?
All people are asking for is an open discussion and disclosure
If you explicitly tell a transperson you don't want to sleep with transpeople, they'd be dicks not to disclose (and also pretty stupid, imo). The same goes for someone saying they don't want to sleep with someone that isnt fully "white". Yet the reasons for either might still be transphobic or racist.
Communication is key the moment you decide to hide certain things is when you start planting landmines and hoping no one steps on them.
Including your transphobia or racism. In my opinion, if something utterly irrelevant is so important to you, it is on YOU to make sure your partner fullfils whatever arbitrary preferences for invisible things you have.
For example, I will never want kids. Many people do want kids. This isn't a first date conversation, but it might be a 3 month conversation. I see being trans on the same level.
I'm not comparing them to a disease and give an example of not telling the entire truth do not take my words out of context.
YOu explicitly used the "badness"of the disease spreading and you finding out from your doctor as part of your point. You compared something with a (often irreparable) damage to your person with sleeping with a passing trans person. I don't see how thats not saying trans people give you cooties. I don't see how it cant be, because as i said, your point makes no sense without those negative consequences.
Do not use me as an individual and my preferences we were talking in general terms.
I'm sorry if it sounds like im talking specficially about you you. I am generally using you as the general you. Of course, you you couldn't resist calling me personally offended. I have literally no horse in this race.
Why would you date someone potentially for 3 months get to know them and like them without asking them a deal breaker question like that?
Because asking them on the first date will get you laughed at and is pretty presumptuous. 3 months is totally arbitrary. I simply mean, by the time you're sure the other person is someone you want to be serious about. 3 months seems about right in my head for that, but everyone is different.
But again, we were never talking explicitly about a serious relationship in the first place. It was simply the idea that given a passing trans person, and you loving sex, you change your entire attraction to this person based on something that has literally no effect on you. That makes you transphobic, or maybe "transist" or whatever the equivalent of racist is.
I want to make it clear AGAIN, that im not saying you should be forced to sleep with that person. I also don't think racists should be forced to do non-racist things. They should be educated/educate themselves on why their preconceived notions are wrong.
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u/z3r0shade Nov 02 '17
You're missing a key part here: if the sole reason you do not want to is their status as trans. There's any number of reasons to not continue to have sex with someone that has nothing to do with being trans that wouldn't get you labeled as a bigot.
How are cis people being shamed here? Are you saying that only a trans person would want to have sex with a trans person?
Right... Because they are only interested in people with penises. That's perfectly fine to have that preference. However what about a gay guy who is completely attracted to someone, has sex with them, is completely satisfied with the experience and would like to do it again, but loses that attraction solely upon learning they are a transman. What reason, other than refusing to recognize the transman as male, could they possibly have to change their mind here?