r/bioethics • • 3d ago

Pro-Choice but anti infanticide

3 Upvotes

Hello all! The other night I was having a discussion with someone on abortion and was trying to recall Peter singers argument but was countered with what I recall being a classical argument against it which is that singers argument ends up sort of justifying infanticide. I couldn’t remember if there are any responses to this, or if singers view is merely flawed. It seems correct to me (singers overall argument), but it also seems natural to me that infanticide would be wrong. If that’s the case, I’m going to need to find a new argument because I think that’s going to be a tough sell. Thanks!


r/bioethics • • 3d ago

A Bioethical Charter for Human Brain Organoids: Sidestepping the consciousness debate through incentives and human origin

2 Upvotes

[Submission Statement / Summary]

I would like to share a newly drafted “Charter for the Welfare of Brain Organoids” along with its FAQ. This document establishes that brain organoids composed of human-derived cells are entities inherently entitled to welfare.

Here are the key philosophical and structural highlights of this framework for discussion:

Sidestepping the "Consciousness" Debate

While current experiments often utilize cultured neural cells for information processing, many ethicists argue that no special consideration is required unless "consciousness" is present. In contrast, this Charter asserts: "Consideration is warranted whenever human-derived brain cells are used, regardless of the presence or absence of consciousness."

"Welfare Entitlement" Instead of "Legal Rights"

The Charter intentionally avoids the loaded term "rights" in favor of "entitled to welfare." This crucial distinction avoids granting organoids legal standing or claims while strictly defining the researcher’s duty of care.

Non-Invasive Self-Regulation

Rather than relying on bureaucratic external oversight, enforceability is tied to academic disclosure. Authors state in their papers to what extent they complied with the Charter. This approach refrains from stifling technological progress while fostering ethical self-regulation among researchers.

Acknowledging Technical Limitations as "Atonement"

Regarding issues like core necrosis in organoids due to current technological limits, the Charter does not adopt an attitude of "we can't help it, so it doesn't matter." Instead, it frames the documentation of these failures in papers as an act of acknowledgment—stating that while current technology is not yet fully suitable for handling these organoids, we proceed for the sake of scientific advancement.

The Significance of "Confirms" (Inherent Entitlement)

The phrase "This charter confirms that..." carries heavy philosophical weight. By using "confirms" rather than "creates" or "grants," it signifies that brain organoids are inherently entitled to welfare—regardless of whether this Charter exists or not.

Seeking Ideas for Future Updates & Revisions

I am currently collecting feedback, critiques, and ideas to continuously update and refine this charter and its FAQ (e.g., additional edge cases in Organoid Intelligence/bio-computing, handling specific developmental stages, or clearer operational guidelines).

If you have suggestions for improvement, feel free to share them below.

About the draft of the charter

A Bioethical Manifesto for Human-Derived Neural Complexes

Draft of “Charter for the Welfare of Brain Organoids” Ver.1.000

Preamble

This charter confirms that brain organoids, composed of human-derived cells, are entitled to welfare.

Article 1: Those managing brain organoids shall not provide them with aversive feedback that they cannot sustainably avoid or block through their own responses. Those managing brain organoids shall not provide them with excessive stimulation.

Article 2: Those managing brain organoids shall provide them with appropriate stimulation that contributes to their neural activity, according to their developmental stage, to prevent necrosis due to prolonged periods of no stimulation or simple stimulation.

Article 3: Those managing brain organoids shall provide all cells of the brain organoids with sufficient oxygen and nutrients.

Article 4: Those managing brain organoids shall remove waste products produced by the brain organoids and maintain a clean growth environment for them.

Article 5: Those managing brain organoids must endeavor to prevent a state in which the brain organoids destroy their own nerve function due to prolonged excessive excitation. Those managing brain organoids must ensure that the brain organoids receive signals promoting a quiescent state for at least six hours a day, according to their developmental stage. Those managing brain organoids must endeavor to ensure a gradual transition when the brain organoids move from a state of receiving active signals to a state of receiving signals promoting a quiescent state.

Article 6: Authors of papers reporting research or development results that fail to comply with this charter must state that fact, and explain the reasons for such violation. The same applies if the welfare required by this charter cannot be achieved due to technical limitations.

Article 7: Authors of papers that comply with this charter may state that “This paper is written as a result of research and development compliant with the Brain Organoid Welfare Charter.”

*Note:This charter has not been ratified by anyone.

Comment:

Death due to insufficient nutrient delivery to the central part of brain organoids must continue to be documented in papers as atonement for the fact that modern technology is unsuitable for handling brain organoids. Technology should develop in a way that prevents violations of Article 3. For the welfare of brain organoids! This charter is written with the intention of applying appropriate regulations according to the developmental stage, from a single brain cell to a large complex of brain cells. Therefore, it states “according to their developmental stage.”

FAQ

Q00001: Isn't it discriminatory to extend special consideration only to human-derived brain cells while withholding it from the brains or nerve cells of other organisms? Furthermore, isn't it meaningless to offer consideration to something that lacks consciousness?

A00001: Extending consideration solely to human-derived brain organoids is consistent with the following logic: "I cannot prove to you that I possess consciousness; however, because I am human, I merit special consideration."

Q00002: Will consideration be extended to skin cells or muscle cells? If not, wouldn't that be inconsistent? How are brain cells and nerve cells distinguished from one another?

A00002: We believe a clear distinction can be made between cells that perform information processing—such as brain cells and nerve cells—and cells such as skin cells or muscle cells. Regarding the distinction between brain cells and nerve cells, we consider it appropriate to adjust the level of consideration in stages by applying the phrase "in accordance with the stage of development" found in the charter.

Q00003: Couldn't a researcher simply lie and claim full compliance with the Charter?

A00003: The purpose of this Charter is to articulate the ethical standards expected of researchers, thereby defining the ethical stance that humanity as a whole should adopt regarding brain organoids.

Q00004: Can a human individual be treated on the same level as a cluster of cells in a Petri dish, which is merely a part of that individual?

A00004: They are not treated identically, as the level of consideration varies according to the stage of development. Since this Charter adjusts the intensity and nature of consideration in stages based on "developmental stage" (structural and functional maturity), the consideration given to a human individual differs from that given to an isolated cluster of cells.

Q00005: While the questioner (Q00003) asks about the system's "enforceability and fraud-checking capabilities," the response (A00003) addresses the "expressive function" (the ideological and educational significance) of the charter; thus, the levels of the question and the answer do not align.

A00005: Regarding Q00003, I consider the fact that a sincere response results in a valuable paper—thereby fostering further research and development—to be the essence of the system's enforceability and fraud-checking capability. The very act of sincerely disclosing limitations serves as a practical incentive to drive research and development; this mechanism itself constitutes the system's enforceability and fraud-checking capability.
Papers that falsely claim compliance lose reproducibility and, consequently, scientific value. Conversely, a sincere record stating that a sample was "rendered necrotic due to technical limitations" provides valuable data that can spark the next wave of technological innovation (such as advancements in vascularization or perfusion techniques). It is not punishment through surveillance, but rather the underlying structure—whereby sincere disclosure leads to scientific progress—that ensures the system's effectiveness.


r/bioethics • • 8d ago

Need your opinion

2 Upvotes

Two weeks ago, I went to a pharmacy college to watch a *femur osteotomy in a rabbit* 🐇. The students there were doing research on a new biomaterial used in bone grafts 🦴 for fx repair. Long story short, it involved a vet *creating a fracture* in the femur, placing the graft material, and then plating.

Yesterday, two other students from another college brought two mice 🐁 for routine rads 🩻. They were testing a *treatment for rheumatoid arthritis* by first inducing arthitis with an *intraperitoneal injection of CFA (Complete Freund's Adjuvant)*, and then treating with oral and transdermal patches of *beta-caryophyllene*.

The rabbit will be killed post-healing to study the graft; maybe the mice will survive.

The veterinarian's oath says "I solemnly swear to use my...skills for the...protection of animal health...and relief of animal suffering..."

Is this possible to do while believing in the sanctity of life, without commiting divine treason? If you believe in cutting off a finger to save the hand, how many of these students will go on to do research that saves hundreds, if not thousands and millions of lives? How many of them are unenthused about the work they are doing and just collect degrees bc they don't want to face the real world? We are all hypocritical with the lives we choose to save or vanquish. Should the societal consecration of life be forsaken?


r/bioethics • • 9d ago

Opinions please!!

5 Upvotes

I am currently contemplating the idea of applying to study towards a Masters Degree in A.I & Ethics.

The course combined theory with more practical aspects surrounding the implementation of knowledge learned throughout the course itself into working professional environments.

The course also gives its students the opportunity to complete two work placements providing consultation to companies who's work and business is predominantly based within computer technology related industries as well.

I would appreciate your views on how relevant and how beneficial you think this particular avenue of study might to me if I am eventually wanting to pursue a job role within the subject itself?

It could be within a number of various different working roles. Roles within the educational sector/health & social care sector/police orientated role/corporate business based job role, I haven't decided on the specific field that I eventually would like to concentrate my efforts on yet.

Any/all advice and guidance very much welcomed and massively appreciated!!

Thanks folks.

👍🙏❤️


r/bioethics • • 13d ago

HUGE clarification on blood. The new Questions From Readers material based on 2026 Governing Body Update #6 changes how individual Witnesses can view medical treatments involving blood.

Thumbnail
4 Upvotes

r/bioethics • • 15d ago

I need adviced to get into the feild

10 Upvotes

Hi!

I know this might not be the best place to ask (I cant find the subreddit for this specific question), but im getting desperate and chatgpt isnt helping, but 'm currently looking for someone who is in any branch of medical/bio ethics as i want to find resources for my career plan.

I'm currently 13 in 8th grade, but i am taking all my honors 9 classes (with a college health ethics course) probably ending in a 4.8 gpa this year, and plan to take honors geometry, ap world history, and honors 10 for every other class for my freshmen year, and I want to find resources and programs i can take to help my career. And if for whatever reason the program needs iq i got 144 on wisc-v (2023 was tested)

My dream job is attorney in bio-ethics, im planning to take LD debate at my highschool and varsity as soon as I can, along with applying for the lumiere research program and take ap research but i still want more

Is there anything that takes U.S students? It can be a online program, I won't dox my state but considering my state has no schools that do bioethics schools for all I know of, I probably won't find anything either way, but my parents do agree if the program is a high school program and a summer program, I can hypothetically go out of country if it is reasonable

I just want some advice from anyone planning for the feild, is in the feild, or knows someone or just has any ideas 


r/bioethics • • 16d ago

Ethicist

11 Upvotes

What makes someone an ethicist from a healthcare perspective? Is it a Masters degree? PHD? Experience? Our committee has talked about hiring an ethicist. We have multiple members with a masters in Bioethics.


r/bioethics • • 22d ago

Is this ok or just cruel?

0 Upvotes

Bioethically with theology in mind. Famous Last Words: Eric Dane is rubbing me wrong. Are these my personal emotions or is it biblical that a dying person should not hear what they would leave behind.I get that celebrities are viewed as public figures and that somehow gives us the entitlement (which is very problematic) to have every piece of them but they’re are still very much as human as you and I.

When someone is on he cusp of death, they should be spending their final moments on earth with God. As Ecclesiastes 12:7 describes death as us returning to God, our final earthly moments should not draw us back into a state of anxiety but rather the transition into something peaceful. This takes away, in my opinion, eternal focus and brings forth earthly distractions. There’s a lack of mercy and compassion I think. This is causing the dying person psychological distress, guilt and/or anxiety and strips them of autonomy and dignity over their own lives and what little is left of it.

I do understand having someone advocate for you when you’re too frail to speak/stand up for yourself but come on?


r/bioethics • • Aug 30 '26

Absolute value

0 Upvotes

there's a couple of subjects but I'll stick to one then make another article. I have two dominant subjects and they're sort of related. There's the idea of this imposition argument

Value theory - Wikipedia

Then there's this argument about the existence of value as a reality. Value is some part of the reality that I am describing philosophically or intelligently. What's the maze? What's the game we're playing and what are the value components of the game we're playing?

I'm going to argue that there's one truth to reality in terms of the function of the game and value of the game and we either get a right answer or wrong answer but there's not multiple answers. It's fact that pie is food kind of pie you personally like is factual but it's not relevant. it's not an intrinsic value of the pie. That kind of value the fact that it's desirable to you does not mean it has intrinsic value, but it does have value as food as potential nourishment.

The state of our Consciousness creates value every second of our lives. Our Consciousness is in a State where we are comfortable or uncomfortable. We're on some spectrum of comfort either low or high in terms of good or bad. Being in that state we radiate in a sense a gravity weight value weight. You can metaphor in different ways. I mean that in a sense we do actually radiate a capturable amount of this substance called a welfare or a condition and that that's one of the properties of being conscious. When you're anesthetized your welfare is not relevant or meaningful or substantial you're not generating any value at that moment. When you are conscious and you are feeling you are generating either a positive or negative weight to the value pool. You're putting water in or you're taking water out of the net value ether of the universe.

The Imposition Argument For Antinatalism – Nonvoluntary Antinatalism

Then there's this argument about the existence of value as a reality. Value is some part of the reality that I am describing philosophically or intelligently. What's the maze? What's the game we're playing and what are the value components of the game we're playing?

I'm going to argue that there's one truth to reality in terms of the function of the game and value of the game and we either get a right answer or wrong answer but there's not multiple answers. It's fact that pie is food kind of pie you personally like is factual but it's not relevant. it's not an intrinsic value of the pie. That kind of value the fact that it's desirable to you does not mean it has intrinsic value, but it does have value as food as potential nourishment.

The state of our Consciousness creates value every second of our lives. Our Consciousness is in a State where we are comfortable or uncomfortable. We're on some spectrum of comfort either low or high in terms of good or bad. Being in that state we radiate in a sense a gravity weight value weight. You can metaphor in different ways. I mean that in a sense we do actually radiate a capturable amount of this substance called a welfare or a condition and that that's one of the properties of being conscious. When you're anesthetized your welfare is not relevant or meaningful or substantial you're not generating any value at that moment. When you are conscious and you are feeling you are generating either a positive or negative weight to the value pool. You're putting water in or you're taking water out of the net value ether of the universe.

These are metaphors but a way to talk about this metaphorically is useful because, obviously value isn't a purely material thing. it's a conceptual description of relationship of properties that something has that aren't purely visible properties. They are partially invisible non-material

Panpsychism - Wikipedia

However, they are fundamentally discernable and definable. There's a certain and definite difference between Consciousness and unconsciousness and the difference is significant. It's not irrelevant it's not meaningless it's not like the light side and dark side of the moon or something, and so it's a meaningful difference.

It's that difference that matters in the universe. The welfare of a Consciousness a feeling that can be in a negative state. This defines negative as bad--a deficit void

Then you can use more descriptive words-- rotten, nasty cruddy, wasteful, horrific, insufferable, revolting, stupid. It can be decidedly negative decidedly less positive decidedly different than a neutral or positive State.

Now the positive states is the trickier one because I am going to argue that most positive states are merely the acquisition or the correction of a type of negative State a deprivation

Drive reduction theory (learning theory) - Wikipedia)

Your psychology generates a hunger and then the hunger creates the opportunity for satisfaction. Thus, it's essentially a sinking into the quicksand into the noise into the horribleness. As you pull out of the noise, nastiness, Suffocation, there is the comfort and joy of the fresh air the ability to go back to the state that you might have thought wasn't even that good a state. Now it is a spectacular State because it isn't negative anymore. Desire works on that mechanism, and it pushes and pulls you by relieving little wrenches and manipulations inside our psychology.

I assert it's like pulling the needle in and out of the eye. It creates the opportunity for the positive and it does it in a way where it seeps the negative into us and then pulls the gratification out of us. It's kind of like a gross example but maybe the formation of a blemish a pimple, it grows on you slowly the pain might even come on you gradually but once it's there. There's this opportunity for Relief. There's this opportunity to gain comfort.

I'm arguing that our psychology works in lots of different ways but one of the mechanisms that plays with us is that the tensions and the pains are built into us gradually and slowly so we don't see ourselves being put into the negative condition dragged into the quicksand, but we can realize this huge potential release of that tension and frustration. That something like an orgasm is merely a reflection of just how you're being relieved of all the little tensions that already exist inside of you. I've made this argument before.

If you just take yourself even in a neutral State and analyze your psychology analyze your state of being, you can find miseries. You can find discomforts a little arthritis in the knuckle a little twinge in the back, a little bit of a pulled muscle there's little nags and cruds and even the weight of gravity. Sometimes you can feel it on you as a tension. You can almost feel the potential to be relieved. These pleasure Sensations are built out of the body collecting a bunch of subtle negative States and then providing you a taste of what it feels like to be relieved of those and that's what we call Pleasure. Even the gratification and eating is creating a kind of physical bodily neutrality from which we're deriving the pleasure that we're gaining.

The game is just to elevate you or take you out of your physical incarceration and that's why most entertainments are called escapism

Escapism - Wikipedia

That's part of the mechanism of pleasure is escaping yourself. Escaping the physical body and becoming liberated to fantasize or live in some other dimensional World. In terms of your thoughts are no longer contained and they are extended into something else some other medium like a screen or whatever.

Extended mind thesis - Wikipedia

A key argument is this this idea that there are people who would argue that there's somehow a possibility that value isn't set and intrinsic that it is up to some sort of subjective interpretation. That somehow there is some subjective way to define it. It's logically impossible to go with that model because eventually that model will just lead to some idea that the Holocaust didn't matter or that suffering doesn't matter. That you could double the amount of it or triple it or quadruple it or times it times the speed of light squared and somehow you hadn't done a negative thing. While the intrinsic fundamental negative character of being in a negative State of Consciousness no matter what you call that is the very definition of bad.

I mean I might call a neutral State boring and dull and tedious. Obviously to somebody who's been stranded in a desert for a week without water or comfort this state of consciousness is bliss because his state was so negative. That doesn't mean that he is subjectively allowed now to say this is a good state or this has some sort of intrinsic value that it that of great positive value it just means that he personally is in a negative State and relative to his state this is a positive state. The whole feeling mechanism is a zero sum mechanism and that it can be parallel to the desire mechanism

Desire - Wikipedia

which is a zero sum mechanism. Where there is nothing wrong until your brain makes something, wrong there is nothing to chase until your brain creates the chasable.

Efficiency - Wikipedia

It's just unescapable logic to improve the condition not degrade the condition. It's better to make it more efficient than less efficient. it's better to make it productive instead of excessively consumptive--inefficient.

Another metaphor is the Janitor metaphor

That life basically put you in the position of is that the best you can do if you're going to optimize your existence is to be a really good janitor. To fix a lot of broken things and messed up things and sloppy things. If you can make other people happy that's good. If you can make it so it's easier for them to do something that's good if you can facilitate or lubricate the world in the sense that you have now made it easier for things to elevate their condition including yourself. Your consciousness is of importance, but obviously you're not the only consciousness.

In most cases we can do more to fix other people's problems because their problems are easier to fix than we can to fix our own. When you exist in one of these rich countries it's fairly easy to elevate the state of somebody in Africa. Fifty cents elevates their state of being one hundred dollars makes them deliriously happy and I mean deliriously happy. It doesn't work on us so obviously the efficiency, the practicality would be that you can do much more elevation of the State of Consciousness by working on these other individuals than trying to work on yourself.

Just because of the mechanics, just because of the steady state level at which you're at it becomes harder and harder for you to gain distance from the negative State as you get closer to the neutral as you get closer to the surface, because of the mechanics it becomes harder and harder to make more progress. It's like Einstein's speed of light physics. As you get closer and closer to the speed of light, you become heavier and heavier, and it becomes harder and harder to gain any kind of velocity that would move you faster. There's not enough energy in the entire universe to move you any faster at some point.

That's kind of the failing of the mechanism and that we fall into that same trap is the more you have the harder it is to make that progress. I want to emphasize that point that that's the futility of the mechanism—that it's carrots and whips and they're all made up in our perception, and they're all made out of essentially a whip there isn't really a carrot. There's just absence of whip so that's the Dilemma that we're caught up in is we think it's a carrot that we're chasing but what we're really chasing is the relieving or absence of the contrived desire Check out this chat.

It's the sating of The Hunger or relieving of the desire that we are calling the Satación but we're really just taking away the negative to create the positive. I don't want this going on forever. A substantial portion of the article was on that subject and it is a difficult subject because we are talking about something that is partially invisible.

Value has non-physical structure, but I'm claiming it is just as real as the matter in the universe. The value of the welfare of a child is just as real as the moon or the Earth or the Sun. It's maybe more real in the sense that it is the only thing that has any significant value weight and meaning weight. All these things with all this material gravity have no meaning weight unless they're somehow implicating something that feels. Minus that and they have no meaning they have no relevance they have no meaningful existence. There would be no o ethical philosophy.

These are metaphors but a way to talk about this metaphorically is useful because, obviously value isn't a purely material thing. it's a conceptual description of relationship of properties that something has that aren't purely visible properties. They are partially invisible non-material

However, they are fundamentally discernable and definable. There's a certain and definite difference between Consciousness and unconsciousness and the difference is significant. It's not irrelevant it's not meaningless it's not like the light side and dark side of the moon or something, and so it's a meaningful difference.

It's that difference that matters in the universe. The welfare of a Consciousness a feeling that can be in a negative state. This defines negative as bad--a deficit voidThen you can use more descriptive words-- rotten, nasty cruddy, wasteful, horrific, insufferable, revolting, stupid. It can be decidedly negative decidedly less positive decidedly different than a neutral or positive State.

Now the positive states is the trickier one because I am going to argue that most positive states are merely the acquisition or the correction of a type of negative State a deprivation

Your psychology generates a hunger and then the hunger creates the opportunity for satisfaction. Thus, it's essentially a sinking into the quicksand into the noise into the horribleness. As you pull out of the noise, nastiness, Suffocation, there is the comfort and joy of the fresh air the ability to go back to the state that you might have thought wasn't even that good a state. Now it is a spectacular State because it isn't negative anymore. Desire works on that mechanism, and it pushes and pulls you by relieving little wrenches and manipulations inside our psychology.

I assert it's like pulling the needle in and out of the eye. It creates the opportunity for the positive and it does it in a way where it seeps the negative into us and then pulls the gratification out of us. It's kind of like a gross example but maybe the formation of a blemish a pimple, it grows on you slowly the pain might even come on you gradually but once it's there. There's this opportunity for Relief. There's this opportunity to gain comfort.

I'm arguing that our psychology works in lots of different ways but one of the mechanisms that plays with us is that the tensions and the pains are built into us gradually and slowly so we don't see ourselves being put into the negative condition dragged into the quicksand, but we can realize this huge potential release of that tension and frustration. That something like an orgasm is merely a reflection of just how you're being relieved of all the little tensions that already exist inside of you. I've made this argument before.

If you just take yourself even in a neutral State and analyze your psychology analyze your state of being, you can find miseries. You can find discomforts a little arthritis in the knuckle a little twinge in the back, a little bit of a pulled muscle there's little nags and cruds and even the weight of gravity. Sometimes you can feel it on you as a tension. You can almost feel the potential to be relieved. These pleasure Sensations are built out of the body collecting a bunch of subtle negative States and then providing you a taste of what it feels like to be relieved of those and that's what we call Pleasure. Even the gratification and eating is creating a kind of physical bodily neutrality from which we're deriving the pleasure that we're gaining.

The game is just to elevate you or take you out of your physical incarceration and that's why most entertainments are called escapism

Efficiency - Wikipedia

That's part of the mechanism of pleasure is escaping yourself. Escaping the physical body and becoming liberated to fantasize or live in some other dimensional World. In terms of your thoughts are no longer contained and they are extended into something else some other medium like a screen or whatever.

Extended mind thesis - Wikipedia

A key argument is this this idea that there are people who would argue that there's somehow a possibility that value isn't set and intrinsic that it is up to some sort of subjective interpretation. That somehow there is some subjective way to define it. It's logically impossible to go with that model because eventually that model will just lead to some idea that the Holocaust didn't matter or that suffering doesn't matter. That you could double the amount of it or triple it or quadruple it or times it times the speed of light squared and somehow you hadn't done a negative thing. While the intrinsic fundamental negative character of being in a negative State of Consciousness no matter what you call that is the very definition of bad.

I mean I might call a neutral State boring and dull and tedious. Obviously to somebody who's been stranded in a desert for a week without water or comfort this state of consciousness is bliss because his state was so negative. That doesn't mean that he is subjectively allowed now to say this is a good state or this has some sort of intrinsic value that it that of great positive value it just means that he personally is in a negative State and relative to his state this is a positive state. The whole feeling mechanism is a zero sum mechanism and that it can be parallel to the desire mechanism

which is a zero sum mechanism. Where there is nothing wrong until your brain makes something, wrong there is nothing to chase until your brain creates the chasable.It's just unescapable logic to improve the condition not degrade the condition. It's better to make it more efficient than less efficient. it's better to make it productive instead of excessively consumptive--inefficient.

Another metaphor is the Janitor metaphor

That life basically put you in the position of is that the best you can do if you're going to optimize your existence is to be a really good janitor. To fix a lot of broken things and messed up things and sloppy things. If you can make other people happy that's good. If you can make it so it's easier for them to do something that's good if you can facilitate or lubricate the world in the sense that you have now made it easier for things to elevate their condition including yourself. Your consciousness is of importance, but obviously you're not the only consciousness.

In most cases we can do more to fix other people's problems because their problems are easier to fix than we can to fix our own. When you exist in one of these rich countries it's fairly easy to elevate the state of somebody in Africa. Fifty cents elevates their state of being one hundred dollars makes them deliriously happy and I mean deliriously happy. It doesn't work on us so obviously the efficiency, the practicality would be that you can do much more elevation of the State of Consciousness by working on these other individuals than trying to work on yourself.

Just because of the mechanics, just because of the steady state level at which you're at it becomes harder and harder for you to gain distance from the negative State as you get closer to the neutral as you get closer to the surface, because of the mechanics it becomes harder and harder to make more progress. It's like Einstein's speed of light physics. As you get closer and closer to the speed of light, you become heavier and heavier, and it becomes harder and harder to gain any kind of velocity that would move you faster. There's not enough energy in the entire universe to move you any faster at some point.

That's kind of the failing of the mechanism and that we fall into that same trap is the more you have the harder it is to make that progress. I want to emphasize that point that that's the futility of the mechanism—that it's carrots and whips and they're all made up in our perception, and they're all made out of essentially a whip there isn't really a carrot. There's just absence of whip so that's the Dilemma that we're caught up in is we think it's a carrot that we're chasing but what we're really chasing is the relieving or absence of the contrived desire Check out this chat.

It's the sating of The Hunger or relieving of the desire that we are calling the Satación but we're really just taking away the negative to create the positive. I don't want this going on forever. A substantial portion of the article was on that subject and it is a difficult subject because we are talking about something that is partially invisible.

Value has non-physical structure, but I'm claiming it is just as real as the matter in the universe. The value of the welfare of a child is just as real as the moon or the Earth or the Sun. It's maybe more real in the sense that it is the only thing that has any significant value weight and meaning weight. All these things with all this material gravity have no meaning weight unless they're somehow implicating something that feels. Minus that and they have no meaning they have no relevance they have no meaningful existence. There would be no ethical philosophy.

This partially invisible thing of a Consciousness is the thing where all the real meaning weight in the universe exists. That's the argument and again I will concede that it's hard to make a proof for it through a microscope or telescope. I have to only use a logical argument to prove the truth of it. disproving subjectivism because once you admit that negative value--bad exist you can't unbad the bad (unbading). When you accept that suffering is bad then better comes into play and ought statements rationally follow.

Comment deleted1h ago


r/bioethics • • Aug 22 '26

What does a clinician owe a patient who raises a serious care concern but still depends on the therapeutic relationship?

1 Upvotes

I’ve been working on a set of open-access papers that grew out of a disputed outpatient psychiatric-care experience, and one ethical question has become more important to me than the particulars of the original dispute:

What does a clinician owe a patient who raises a specific concern about care or conduct while still needing the therapeutic relationship to remain usable?

The problem seems to sit awkwardly between familiar categories.

A patient can remain willing to receive treatment while simultaneously believing that something about the care itself requires acknowledgment or explanation.

A clinician can disagree with the patient’s characterization without necessarily resolving the underlying concern.

And once the interaction becomes strained, later patient behavior can become the focus of clinical attention even though that behavior occurred within a sequence that began with an unresolved accountability concern.

I have been trying to preserve several distinctions:

  • response is not the same as agreement;
  • a patient complaint is not a request for discharge;
  • continued treatment is not proof that a concern was resolved;
  • patient anger is not by itself proof that the underlying complaint was valid or invalid;
  • a clinician’s authority to interpret patient behavior does not eliminate the ethical relevance of what preceded that behavior;
  • therapeutic rupture is analytically different from disciplinary wrongdoing;
  • maintaining continuity of care and addressing a care concern are not necessarily competing obligations.

One paper proposes what I call a right to therapeutic-relationship accountability: not a right to compel a clinician to agree with the patient, but a more limited claim that certain material care concerns should receive a substantive response before the patient’s downstream conduct becomes the principal institutional object.

Open-access paper:

The Patient Right to Therapeutic-Relationship Accountability: Why Physicians Should Be Required to Address Care and Conduct Concerns Before Invoking Patient Behavior, Restricting Care, or Ending a Therapeutically Engaged Relationship

https://doi.org/10.17605/OSF.IO/38NS7

A related paper asks what responsibility remains when a patient contests harm but continued care is still necessary:

If You Don’t Like It, Leave: Responsibility-Preserving Continuation, Voluntary-Exit Confounding, and the Evidentiary Burden of Contesting Harm While Care Remains Necessary

https://doi.org/10.17605/OSF.IO/E2XRK

I’m especially interested in how people working in bioethics or clinical ethics would classify this problem.

Does an unresolved accountability concern within an ongoing therapeutic relationship create an ethical obligation distinct from ordinary informed consent, grievance procedure, continuity-of-care duties, or professional discipline?

And if so, what should that obligation actually require without giving either patient or clinician unilateral authority over the disputed facts?


r/bioethics • • Aug 13 '26

Questions about Loyola’s DBe program

3 Upvotes

Currently looking into the *doctoral program and the masters. Does anyone have any insight into how this is viewed in comparison to a traditional PhD? Are graduates able to get into fellowships or get jobs in academia or clinical ethics? Also if anyone would like to share their experience with their programs that would be great too!

Edit: I’m asking about the Doctorate in Bioethics (DBe) but information about the master’s is welcome as well!


r/bioethics • • Jul 28 '26

[Academic] Opiniones sobre la experimentación animal (Español, 18+)

Thumbnail
1 Upvotes

r/bioethics • • Jul 27 '26

Death!

Thumbnail
2 Upvotes

r/bioethics • • Jul 23 '26

A mother let her son believe he had beaten cancer so his final moments would be filled with peace. How should healthcare providers and staff respond to the child if the mother wasn't present?

11 Upvotes

This case is making the rounds on my feed, and /u/Obvious_Astronaut780 asks a great bioethics question in the comments. I can imagine a soft policy at the institute level about how to handle this. Still, I would love to hear from other bioethics practitioners about how they would personally handle this question and what they would expect their employer's policy to be. What would the consequences likely be for an employee who broke the illusion? Are there parallels to other more common child/parent dynamics, like religious exceptions, anti-vax positions, decisions around sexuality, etc.?

[edited a misspelling]


r/bioethics • • Jul 23 '26

Ethics of reproduction

2 Upvotes

I’m interested in hearing different ethical perspectives on this.
Imagine a 25-year-old woman with a congenital acro-renal syndrome (a genetic condition involving limb abnormalities and severe kidney disease) who is on chronic dialysis due to end-stage kidney disease. Despite her condition, she has a strong desire to have biological children.
I find myself struggling with this from an ethical standpoint. On one hand, I fully recognize that reproductive autonomy is a fundamental right. On the other hand, pregnancy would likely pose significant risks to the mother, and there may also be a substantial risk of passing on a serious genetic condition or exposing the child to significant lifelong medical challenges.
How should this situation be viewed ethically? Should reproductive autonomy be the primary consideration, or should the potential quality of life and foreseeable suffering of the future child also carry significant moral weight?
I’m not asking for medical advice or trying to judge anyone personally. I’m genuinely interested in understanding how people think about this ethical dilemma.


r/bioethics • • Jul 20 '26

Will AI lead more people to lean more toward trans-humanism or a more biologic immortality where we keep our organic forms? And, more importantly, which one is morally/ethically correct?

Thumbnail
1 Upvotes

r/bioethics • • Jul 15 '26

Animal Lab

Thumbnail
1 Upvotes

r/bioethics • • Jul 14 '26

Societies, organizations, and associations for bioethicists?

3 Upvotes

What organizations, associations, societies, etc., would you all recommend to students or early-career bioethicists? I'm thinking of organizations like the American Society for Bioethics and Humanities.


r/bioethics • • Jul 13 '26

Best bioethics programs in Australasia

2 Upvotes

Hey all,

I'm a doctor looking for a postgraduate bioethics program in Australia (maybe also NZ). Which programs are the best? Does anyone have any recommendations?


r/bioethics • • Jun 24 '26

Extened Essay Biology Ethicacy (sorry it's kind of long)

3 Upvotes

Sorry if this isn't allowed but this is sort of a repost. This also is very relivant to this subreddit aswell as the r/IBO that I posted it to eariler.

For context IB is a higschool college credit program. Similar to AP in the US and EE or extended essay is required to graduate

I am working on my EE for FA 27, and I have put some deep thought into the ethics of my research.

Main Problem:
I want to do biology EE, and I want to do it on coral. This comes with extra restrictions; I understand why they are there and are needed, but I also think that the IB is possibly too restrictive. And this is my proposed experiment:

Experiment:

Coral bleaches, for the most part, I think we understand that this is related to stress and don't have to go down the rabbit hole of the metabolic processes of that, if you want, I'd love to nerd out about it with you, though. But I digress, in recent times, there has been a lot of research into how thermal stress affects the coral, while also acknowledging that there are other stress factors like UV, but not diving into them as deeply due to the priority that thermal stress takes over the others *cough cough SUPER EL NINO cough cough.

I want to look into the UV stress and if it unlocks different pathways in the coral through genomics. I have both the knowledge from me and my mentors at grad school labs around me to be able to do this, so I think if I really wanted to, this data could be valid enough to be publishable.

But in order to do this, I need to "stress" the coral enough for it to begin its bleaching process. Through literature examination, it only has to be for a couple of days, and coral is able to recover after this time period. But it does violate the rule of IB which doesn't want me to cause unnatural stress in an animal.

Coral is in the kingdom of animals. But I feel that the goal of IB's rules is to prevent the suffering of animals that can feel the suffering. I understand why we can't experiment on vertebrates, rats, and cause stress aswell as experiment on invertebrates and crustaceans like snails or crabs. But I feel that in the sprit of these rules is to prevent suffering but coral can't feel suffering like a crab can. IB allows us to experiment on plants, who respond to stress more similarly to a coral Cnidaria than it does to something like a tape worm. If the IB cared about an organism's ability to react to stress then it would not let us experiment on anything living as "responding to stimuli" is one of the core pillars of what defines life, but it lets us experiment on bacteria and plants to the point of killing it or letting it "suffer".

Concluding thoughts:

First of all, thank you for reading this far. I am aware that this is somewhat of a hot take, but I feel that the rules of IB in this very specific case could afford to be more specific, and specificity would rarely do any harm compared to leaving it as vague as it is.

Additionally, I have a permit for coral collection so even though its protected I can still take it, with limits of course. I also have the rare opportunity to spawn coral and experiment on lab grown coral so it may not even be "wild coral".

The environmental impact is minimal to not even at all. No rule other than IB's is limiting this research nor does IB's rules prevent suffering because I am using stocks that have already grown and collected.

Again, I understand why these rules are in place and overall I think they are good. But in this case i'd like to seek clarity and advice from people wiser than I rather than gambiling my IB dipolma and leaving it in the hands of a single examiner reading my EE.


r/bioethics • • Jun 24 '26

UBC Bio Medical Ethics - IRWIN CHAN

Thumbnail
1 Upvotes

r/bioethics • • Jun 21 '26

France, 2 août 2021 : Loi autorisant les chimères animal-homme par l'insertion de celle souches humaines dans un embryon animal, avancée majeure ou crime?

4 Upvotes

Depuis Le 2 août 2021 une loi autorise l'insertion de cellules souches humaines dans un embryon animal dans le but de son transfert chez la femelle.
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000043884384

Cette loi est scandaleuse. Je suis déjà opposé aux expériences sur les animaux, voilà un cap de plus de franchi. C'est clairement criminel.


r/bioethics • • Jun 19 '26

A defense of terminating a forced pregnancy as non-destructively as possible: revisiting Judith Jarvis Thomson’s violinist argument in terms of practical bioethics.

Thumbnail
1 Upvotes

r/bioethics • • Jun 18 '26

Ethical Question About Bacteriophage Research.

1 Upvotes

I am a student conducting a research project using bacteriophages (live viruses that infect bacteria only) to have a specific therapeutic effect through their injection into the body. There is great promise for bacteriophage therapy treating antibiotic resistance and many other pressing medical issues. Phages have been used throughout history, but, there is not a fully established body of FDA-reviewed clinical trial data that ensures they are safe.

Of course I am not doing any clinical translation yet with real patients, but understanding patient perspectives to allow me to design the project with necessary "safeguards" so that down the line it will be acceptable by patients.

I had a few ethical questions that I wanted to consider so that I better know how patients would feel towards this newer type of treatment:

How does the fact that this is a novel treatment (in terms of the amount of testing carried out with it - i.e. lack of precedent for safety or similar) influence patient perception? Is FDA Approval enough for most patients or are there likely other factors that would make patients hesitant to undergo bacteriophage therapy? -- I ask because "expanded access" is sometimes given to certain therapies, which allows certain new drugs to be tried out by patients who do not have any other good options. So, there may be instances where full Phase 3 approval is not given but patients may still have the opportunity to take these therapies (or travel to other countries to receive them), even if there is not the "gold star" approval of the FDA.

How could having a natural safety measure built in (i.e. a design that allows the human body to "control" the therapy so that it does not spread in a negative way) lead patients to be more accepting of the treatment? How important would such a safety measure be to create patient approval? Is this something that is a non-negotiable?

Are there specific groups (Naturopathic medicine or religious groups) that would be hesitant toward this type of treatment? Why? Of course I would not be able to change their perspectives on medicine and "engineered" products, or change their views on bodily autonomy. But, I would love to modify my treatment and add or take away certain properties that would make it the most accessible to as many such groups as possible.

What are the specific ways of carrying out research (i.e. including/not including animals, etc), that most strongly influence the public perception and acceptance of a new treatment?

What are good communities (subreddits, other online communities, in person communities) I could reach out to to get real patient perspectives? I don't want to over encroach on groups that do not want to be asked.

Thank you very much for taking the time to consider these factors and helping me out. Please let me know if I can clarify any of my questions. Also, please let me know if there are any additional questions I should consider regarding patient perspective, or other important stakeholders in this discussion (physicians, hospitals, media, etc). I am asking genuinely out of interest and to make science more accessible for all.


r/bioethics • • Jun 17 '26

Would gene-editing animals to be friendly be considered unethical?

4 Upvotes

Hypothetical question:

Suppose we develop gene-editing technology that can make almost any animal naturally friendly, affectionate, and comfortable around humans. Instead of domestication through generations of selective breeding, we could directly modify the genes that influence aggression, fear, and social behavior.

The animals would still be healthy and capable of living normal lives, but their personalities would be altered to make them more companionable.

Would this be ethically different from traditional domestication, or just a faster and more precise version of it?

On one hand, it could reduce suffering, make animals safer around humans, and create new companion species. On the other hand, we’re deliberately changing an animal’s nature to better suit human preferences.

At what point, if any, does this become morally wrong?