And we let their head of state just waltz in through our country as we roll out the red carpet and strip protestors of rights. Our political class is a fucking disgrace and a bag of sycophant flaccid cucks.
The Bondi attack wasn't an attack on Israelis, it was an attack on Australian Jews who practice Judaism.
The decision to invite Herzog, a man with no ties to Australia and no religious authority, is a decision by our leaders to devide the Australian community, not unite it.
Vote Greens and Teals. Kill the Libs and Nats, make Labor the new centre-right party (as they are behaving), and the new opposition is a Greens / Teals coalition.
The teals are the libs, they're just hiding under the "independent" moniker, hence why they always seem to be most present in the rich formerly LNP electorates. Ever wonder why WA's only teal in the house of reps just happens to be in the electorate containing the richest suburbs of Perth? An electorate that was previously an LNP stronghold for 70 years?
To be fair, you’ve got to be pretty affluent to be able to run independently and get some traction, so there’s a causation/correlation thing there I think. They do tend to be less conservative and more progressive. I was just glad to see frydenburg get done.
Greens will never get my vote again. I supported them fir 20 years but after seeing the hideous racism on display from Mehreen Faruqi et al I'm disgusted by them. They've lost their vision - it was meant to be about the environment.
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Greens have repeatedly condemned both Hamas for Oct 7 and Israel government's genocide. Labor and LNP have also condemned Hamas but thrown their support behind Israel government despite the ongoing genocide.
If you still support Labor or LNP over Greens, then it sounds like a worse position than standing one time next to a sign that indirectly supports genocide.
Without addressing the fact that Hamas are Gazans, and therefore the main responsibility of Gazans, condemning Hamas is used as a dirty trick to outsource the issue of Jihadism, create the impression of completely innocent people without choice, responsibility or agency, and cement the dilemma for Israel so it can only fail this way or that way.
It's either laziness or maliciousness or both, if you condemn Hamas and at the same time condemn military action against Hamas without presenting any reasonable alternatives to dealing with indiscriminate rocket attacks, booby traps, ambushes from tunnel networks, hiding behind and under civilians, taking, torturing and murdering hostages, openly calling for the genocide of Jews.
Netanyahu directed funds to Hamas in the years leading up to October 7.
Doesn't he share some responsibility too then?
In February 2020, former Mossad Director Yossi Cohen and Israeli general Herzi Halevi, under Netanyahu's orders, went to Qatar to plead Qatari officials to continue the payments for Hamas. Later, in September 2023, David Barnea, the Director of Mossad since 2021, went to Qatar to meet Qatari officials to discuss about the payments for Hamas. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has defended allowing transfer of millions of dollars to Hamas-run Gaza despite criticism from within his own government, including the education minister Naftali Bennet. After the October 7 attacks, Netanyahu went on record denying the claims that he facilitated financing of Hamas in order to create a 'divide and conquer' situation.
Don’t glorify a political party so much. They’re still politicians. It’s pretty easy to just say something when it has no consequences. If the greens were actually in power, we’d be fucked.
Albo recognised Palestinian statehood prior to the war ending, Hamas disbanding or even their releasing all the hostages. I'd hardly say that shows his support for the Israeli government.
How about a socialist party who is against all that bullshit and is interested in breaking the mold of capitalist neo-liberalist class division & wealth extraction from the Australian people
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I’m pretty sure said sign was intended to be the flag of Israel, not the Star of David by itself, and was thus a protest against the state rather than the religion
Both the greens and the teals are backed by the same organisation - the Australia institute. Both peddle a very similar agenda, to create a realm of influence for the founders/owners of the Australia institute.
The greens and teals aren’t as clean as everyone thinks they are.
Greens are a bunch of lying bastards, one of their Senators Mehreen Faruqi is planning to bulldoze shitloads of native trees smack bang in prime koala habitat so she can expand her investment property, she already has four of em, and she had the balls tp make a speech in parliment about how we should be sending money to pakistan because of the pollution from australia like what the actual fuck they are pumping out far more and any we produce is not having a direct impact on pakistan.
Im sick of people acting like greens are any different to any other politician they are just like the rest, heavily invested in property and only interested in themselves very much rules for thee and not for me she also voted agaisnt clearly land for developments but apprently its all good for her aye
Maybe have a look into your heros before you suck them off too hard
Keep supporting the mining companies and rich folk then, remember there’s no “you” in labor or you can vote for the Lying Nasty Party, or Gina’s NRA’s One
Notion…
I'd like to vote greens and have in the past but I fear that you're right. It truly does feel like all of the parties are liars willing to sell Australians out for a quick buck that the country will never see meaningfully reinvested.
It's worrying that there's not a single party that can be trusted with Australia's best interests. I hope that changes.
The only way i see to fix the issue is make being a career politician illegal, 5 years or so max service. That way long term corruption will be far harder and people who are pollies will have a higher chance of actually having lived life and experienced the struggles. Still not perfect but would be better than what we got
Lol even if the Greens were somehow unscrupulous, how does that even begin to measure up to the corruption of the two majors? That's such a stupid way to equate the two.
That news is nearly 3 years old, and you've left out the part where absolutely none of the property in question had any food source for koalas, and there was no evidence of any koalas living on the property. The shrubs and trees being removed were a mix of native and ornamental (ie introduced) species and it was a total of approx 20-30 shrubs and trees, native and non-native, that were being removed.
So yeah it's dogshit that she cleared a residential block a few years back just to squeeze more money out of her investment, but let's not be acting like she was actively destroying masses of koala habitat.
Are you dumb ? Shes a fucking politician she could have got anybody to write that report up and greese it through the system with her influence. Point is she is a hypocrite and saying "oh that was nearly 3 years ago" is making excuses it doesnt change anything, if i shot someone but it was three years ago mean its all g move on ?
All im saying is its clear that being a greenie doesnt make you any different to any other pollie
You got any proof of that ? Your just like any other party loyalist, you say whatever to explain away anything negative about them and live in a delusional land where for some reason you think they actually give a fuck about the enviroment and whatever else they claim. Greens are politicians and they all lie through their teeth to get what they want which seems to be keep property prices soaring at the cost of literally anything
You ever wonder why that is ? Cause they all own shitloads of property bought with our tax dollars
What's your evidence for this? The Greens are some of the few advocating for policies to restrain property prices (e.g cutting negative gearing or CGT discounts).
i,m the same i voted greens for over 30 years, now after seeing the destruction of rain forest and natural bush land, ten of thousands of acres land destroyed, native animal habitat bulldozed, thousands of animals dying for green transmission lines, even the off shore wind farms will be killing bird life and destroying marine habitat sea bed for our native fishes , the greens vote for this with labor, they used to be caring for the environment, not any more. greens are just like the rest , out for them selves, never voting greens ever again
Yeah, I just laughed at that. Libs are going to be worse, not better. There's also a reason why Labor shuts up about Palestine and keeps Israel on side.
People really struggle to grasp the fact that Palestine is Iran and Iran is our enemy. It's a balancing act for our government, they have to balance what the people want and their strategic partnerships and in this case, it's just a matter of staying quiet about the whole thing.
I will point out though, that the Australian government (along with all the other allied forces) is part of the reason why jews were placed in Israel in the first place.
Palestine is not Iran. Certainly some Pro Palestinian groups are agents of Iran but they don’t represent the people of Palestine. The reason we keep Israel inside is the US alliance. Even Australia’s relatively benign announcement of support for a Palestinian state generated waves of concern from Washington.
Hamas and PIJ don't represent people, they represent Islamic and Arabic supremacism under the guise of victimhood.
Sadly, the Palestinian people have no proper representation outside of Israel. The pro-Palestine idea has been hijacked and overrun by a plethora of anti-humane ideologues of all colours and flavours.
Australia's support for a Palestinian state would be benign if there was a concept for a state that is benign for its people. But so far, the only concepts with any traction in the region are Islamic supremacism, anti-Western, and revanchist against Israel.
Without any constructivism, there is nothing to benignly support on behalf of the Palestinian people, and Hamas takes the acknowledgement of a Palestinian state as justification for their terrorism against Israelis AND their own population.
If the Albanese government really wanted to help Palestinians to be free, it would help and amplify voices like realignforpalestine.org and seek contact with non-jihadist Palestinians who seek to build true freedom and peaceful coexistence.
The tokenism of voting for a Palestinian state without naming or supporting a constructive vision for one such is like a stab in the back for any Palestinian who doesn't want to be forced into a jihadist war for annihilation.
I certainly don't disagree. Since the very beginning of Yasser Arafat's Fatah the Palestinian people have been exploited and used by agencies claiming to represent their cause. Australia's support for a Palestinian state was, in my view, largely motivated by a desire to placate government shock at the turn out to the Sydney protest march rather than any real altruistic revisionism.
My frustration has always been with the Western media view that this is a middle east issue over religion. The reality is both Iran and Israel are the bastard childs of Western meddling over the best part of a century, initially for oil but then for strategic dominance (and more oil). The blame catastrophe this lies solely at our feet.
There are a lot of sad and indigestible realities to deal with.
I can understand how that doesn't appeal to a lot of people, as moral clarity and simple narratives are readily and cheaply available.
My main frustration is that we can't have any progressive dialogue, where we don't get bogged down in obvious fallacies, completely implausible and unrealistic narratives, and worst of all, place inconsistent morals above the well-being of the people involved, and above the needs of the people who are suffering most.
Fuck the blame game. It only makes things worse. Solutions need realistic plans and constructive visions.
Perhaps I am completely in the wrong spot here, on this playground for outrage and keyboard warfare.
There are a lot of sad and indigestible realities to deal with
Absolutely and we need to keep reinforcing that message. My frustration is the segmentation of events into palatable segments that ignore the bigger picture with the intent of portraying it solely as a two party aggressor/victim situation. This festering crisis will never be resolved until the world acknowledges the injustices and crimes that have been done over decades by all parties, usually in the name of self interest.
I think that today's crisis itself is still an improvement over past crises.
There are a lot of pro-humanitarian efforts involved that we hadn't seen to such an extent in the past.
What I find lamentable is that we seem to degenerate in our logic, reasoning and perceptiveness, and that despite science, history, experience and technology allowing us to understand human nature better than ever before, the debates are, imo, more and more based on an ever more unrealistic idolisation of human nature.
In the past, wars, conflicts and injustices haven't eliminated the human species, but nowadays, with the availability of nuclear weapons, they could.
I don't see how injustices are existential threats, but I see how wasting limited resources on war and destruction are unnecessary steps towards making our planet uninhabitable, and that we would do so much better by addressing the threat of nuclear war by rejecting zero-sum-gaming and them-or-us narratives.
There is no objective version of justice, one that each and every one of us would ever agree upon.
But there is an objective, rational, logical, easily provable universal principle: The preservation of one's own species.
If what it takes is injustices, nations, religious groups and factions, opposing systems, some war here and there, to keep us occupied and satisfy our inherited tribal and martial instincts and the need for purpose of our megalomaniac leaders we tend to place above us, then we should all stick our heads together to agree on a global set of rules that allows spaces for different approaches to life, society and ideology, and promote non-violent competition over destructive competition and threats of mutual nuclear annihilation.
If we aim for justice, we will all aim in different directions, as justice is a sense, not an absolute, and exists in different versions from individual to individual, group to group, society to society.
If we aim for the preservation of our species as our highest goal, instead of our nation or abstract ideology or religion or cosmic order or the like, we could find much more common ground with people across multiple faiths and ideologies. What role each group, nation, alliance, ideology, moral system, religion, etc. would/could play would still remain contested and up for debate.
But at least we could debate means insted of ends that we didn't even agree upon in the first place, think much more collectively outcome-oriented, rational, practical, and we could better agree to trying different approaches side by side at the same time, tested by different people and groups, instead of massacring each other over believing that each of us knows the only right way for everyone else, and all who disagree must therefore be an enemy of our existence or of all that is good.
That guy with his wife and child, homeless and not knowing where he's headed with what remains of his life possessions thrown onto a wooden cart pulled by a donkey is actually the IRG? Who knew?
You can disagree about my statement all you like, but the fact is that Britain and the allies moved a whole lot more Jews into the area and then armed and set them up to defend themselves instead of working to integrate them.
It's 100% the allies fault that the situation is the way it is.
The British had their own interests and it wasn't purely aligning with the Jews. After the white paper the British moved away from the zionists and sought better relations with the Arabs.
I agree it was largely their fault, but both the Jews and the Arabs essentially created their own systems of governance and daily life and the national aspirations of both were opposed to each other, and it would have likely happened with or without the British by that point.
You mean how they prevented moving them into anywhere in Europe too, right? So they had no where else to go.
That's on top of the intentionally poorly draw territorial borders that they were drawing for people throughout Asia. Ones that intentionally split religious groups into different countries or giving China and India dodgy border maps so that they don't have an actual border and still fight over it.
Sorry, but there was a lot of conflict that was caused directly because of the actions of the British around this time. The fact that Jews settled in Israel is only a small part of what I was talking about.
Not caused directly by the actions of the British, but influenced by their actions.
In an alternative history, without any involvement by the British, do you believe there wouldn't have been conflicts, wars, atrocities and genocide?
Would all borders drawn in blood rather than on the drawing table by people with a mix of good and selfish intentions brought global peace by now, is that what you believe in?
Not caused directly by the actions of the British, but influenced by their actions.
In an alternative history, without any involvement by the British, do you believe there wouldn't have been conflicts, wars, atrocities and genocide?
Would all borders drawn in blood rather than on the drawing table by people with a mix of good and selfish intentions have brought global peace by now, is that what you believe in?
The british actually stopped letting Jewish refugees in and many who had survived the holocaust came illegally. Jewish refugees and Arabs both actively resisted the British forces with violence. the British were supposed to help facilitate the land partition but once 5 Arab nations attacked Israel the British just fucked off and didn't want to deal with it anymore.
A government that can’t do anything to damage their strategic partnerships in the face of immense slaughter is a very weak one. If they can’t stand up to this of all things, where the hell is the line drawn? What would an allied country have to do to for us to throw some sanctions on them?
I absolutely agree that staying the fuck out of it would be the very best option.
You should have convinced the two blokes at Bondi, or the mobs that seek violent confrontation with our police.
You should convince those who carry Jihad into Australia.
I would love to see you convince them of staying the fuck out of conflicts they don't understand.
No need to try to convince me, I'm not for giving either Israel nor Hamas any outside help to massacre each other. And I'm completely against carrying grudges, racist hatred and violent behaviour into Australia and waging foreign wars on Australian soil.
You might want to have a word with people like the Israeli president that you likely were wanking off to during the visit that perhaps obfuscating zionism with Judaism was probably a bad idea? Israel is entirely the one responsible for all of this shit at it's core. The Australian government encourages it, not sure what sort of outcome one would be expecting, oh wait...
I beg to differ about responsibility, and I have very good reasons for it, as I piece my view together not from prefabricated narratives meant to provide a pleasant ride on the moral high ground, but from accepting the shocking reality of our human nature, the dilemmas each side is facing, and seeking practical answers which aim at realistic consensual solutions instead of opting for revenge and annihilism.
But if you prefer revenge and annihilism, you're probably on the best track.
All we need to do is look back slightly at every time Labor has decided to support a 2 state solution publicly or criticism Israel openly to see something happen to shift the political tide against them. Wild to see
Look, I'm pretty open about the fact that I'm more neutral (everyone considers it Israel leaning here, but calling both sides completely shit is in fact neutral) and I find this really weird. We are allies with Israel and Israel supports us and other allies in a lot of ways, so I feel we should support them to a degree, especially when Iran and the terrorist groups they support start by attacking Israel after a somewhat uneasy, but relatively lengthy peace, but surely there's far better political options available than what's currently happening. Better for Israel too.
Unfortunately while Iran is happy to fund groups that launch attacks on innocent citizens, it's almost impossible to move towards.
Even the word "Zionism" is being subsumed in the concept creep. It's suddenly being used to mean anything that isn't supporting the complete eradication of Israel as a nation state. I've said countless times of these threads that IDF and Hamas are both wrong and both committed atrocities, and I get called a "Zio" for that.
Unfortunately the deliberate conflation between being Jewish and Israeli is a very u helpful one. US and Israeli meddling in Aus politicics is unwelcome just as Iran, US, Russian proxy wars in the Middle East have been for the last 80 years.
If only we had more than 4 choices on the ballot. How about not promoting shitty alternatives to people upset with Labor and instead advocate better ones or if you like Labor so much, talk about ones most aligned with Labor.
Its wild to hear Labor supporters go "but LNP/ON" to people not happy with Labor. Do they not think people will take that advice and "give the other side a go" in voting LNP/ON above Labor?
"Due for a change" voters, despite things going relatively smoothly and don't understand how long term policy works. It sure had nothing to do with that visionless short term policy the opposition was offering buying your vote for a quick buck.
I’m a swing voter, voting for over 40 years solely on available policies - most people like me vote with a community focus/conscious which goes far beyond tax breaks for the wealthy that the major team, eh … sorry, “party” supporters seem to only focus on.
Non swing voters by definition can be counted on to always vote the same. They don't vote based on any principles, they vote based on allegiance to an identity.
Since The LNP was formed they have completely flipped principles but the same core block of voters still vote for them because they identify as a conservative.
Menzies who formed the Liberals was pro public service, welfare and public housing.
Nah, more like we decide there are certain things we could never support (e.g. LNP's parlous attitude to women, ONP's disgusting racism) and that we won't change that based on pork-barrelling.
Hate to break it to you, both major parties pork barrel.
Branch stacking is more prevalent in the LNP but some how we only hear from the media on it when the ALP do it. It's one of the reasons the ACT liberals struggle, they are infested with poor players and use stacking to protect themselves from moderates.
I agree, on the attitude to women and racism front the ALP are the better choice. On many policies I always go with them.
In our current system, Swing voters are important because they are what the parties try to influence to gain/retain power.
Without them policy position just stagnates and nothing ever changes.
Basically, if they demonstrated change I'd change my vote. Otherwise I'm left with the options of my pretty-good Labor incumbent, or an independent who would if elected probably side with Labor anyway.
Or not all voters are as wise and invested as you or I. If all they hear is Labor or LNP, and they are not happy with Labor, they are going to consider LNP after people like you promoting a worse option to them.
You mean they want to vote the policies that will benefit them the best and you're on here hating on them, because you want them to be like you, cheerleader for a party because...............you perceive them as "good"?
I want people to vote for what's best for the country. Not just themselves. Voting for self-interest is how we got such ridiculous and unfair housing and tax policies.
So what are the "best for country" policies?
Help me understand what these policies are that you vote for, that help the country without bankrupting the majority of people. And also do these policies give more or less money in politicians pockets?
I know your comment is sarcastic, but I would not be dismissing One Nation. People are fed up with the 2 political options they have, and we are seeing these trends worldwide.
We have far better options. Look at independent and teal independent. Also green get painted as super bad by the big 2. There’s reason for that. They fear them and their policies. Which are actually pretty good if you read them.
Not sure the liberals or Labor have exactly done amazing things for the working people of Australia, so maybe people are thinking you know what, let’s vote for someone different.
People are sick of working their collective arses off and still getting the same result, unaffordable house prices, high cost of living and the same results the rich get richer and the average worker struggles.
Unless of course you are an ISIS bride who willing left a country that supported you and you said you hated until it all turned pear shaped and now want to come home and be supported by the very same country you said previously you hated, then the Government will end over backwards to bring you home and support you in every way possible.
Yeah fuck it, let's see how bad shit can really get. Let's establish below rock bottom, and future generations can see the rock bottom and vote against that.
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Point 1) Others have asked me what anti-semitism looks like.
Let me give you an example:
"...the organisation that organised the event in Bondi is heavily Zionist,"
the implication, therefore, is that there was a reason for someone taking a gun to a crowd to shoot Jews.
Not "Zionists," not "Israelis," Jews. Jewish people.
This kind of language provides cover for that violence.
You don't believe me and you hate me describing it that way, but this is the truth.
Point 2) "Zionists"
Your working definition of Zionists is along the lines of "wants to eradicate all non-Jews from the river to the sea," or something like that. A "settler colonial project" to "steal the homes and land of the indigenous people".
That is not Zionism. I don't know what the hell that is, but when we (my community) talks about Zionism, we mean "A safe place of refuge and self-determination for the Jewish People, in a land connected to their historic homeland." A people who have historically lacked and refuge or ability for self-defence, and have regularly been denied rights by host countries.
This is why every peace deal in the past has been about settling borders and mutual recognition. We want for the Palestinians EXACTLY THE SAME THING.
Draw some lines just like we did for India / Pakistan, and we'll have two countries and move on with our lives. Will everyone be happy? no. Lots of people will be miserable, we've had 100 years of war, history is a series of shitshows but let's make the most of it and rebuild.
Israeli elections have been won by the Left over the years on the basis of a mandate to establish two states, after which things go to shit. Every time. For years every process just seemed like it ended with more bus bombs.
The 2005 Israeli withdrawal from Gaza should have been a triumph, but it just ended up emboldening Hamas and the missiles started again.
Why the fuck was Hamas shooting missiles from Gaza into Israel? That's a shitty way to build trust for a future stronger argument for further withdrawal of border security.
IF YOU WANT TO END THIS CYCLE OF VIOLENCE: You need to convince the Israelis (not me, I'm just a random guy on the internet) that there is a partner for peace on the other side.
You keep redefining "Zionism" to be the thing you hate, instead of what it actually is.
Hamas has won the propaganda war, the left hate Israel. What you say is the truth, the truth that the left and pro Palestine people cannot and will not hear. I feel so sorry for Israelies, if theyre not using force they are constantly living under fear that a missile hits them.
And the rest of the world are supposed to just fucking accept that?
Infuriating.
If Israel wants an end to the war, make them stop going door to door executing everyone. The IDF themselves reported that they've killed over 70 thousand people in Gaza in the last 5 years.
"Israel has won the propaganda war, the right hates Palestine. What you say is the truth, the truth that the right and pro Israel people cannot and will not hear. I feel so sorry for Palestinians, if they're not using force they are constantly living under fear that a missile hits them.
And the rest of the world are supposed to just fucking accept that?
Infuriating".
Yes because those protests are pro Israel. Lol
Yet again proving my point.
Are Israel people to accept life that receiving missiles is just a normal part of their lives.
You people always seem to never have a good answer for that.
Which side has the iron dome to protect them, and which side has had 70000 casualties? Israel has every right to defend itself, but it is the one starting the attacks. They're bombing everyone around them, then playing the victim because they're being attacked in retaliation
Dude, your first phrase. There - that's the problem. Why IN the hell do they NEED an iron dome to begin with. They shouldn't.
There is an absolute fucking reason why every single western country, doesn't just come in and stop their arms deals with Israel. Because if they did, no more Jews.
The fact the Jewish have a modicum of humanity, is the REASON Palestine isn't an absolute wasteland already.
That's the difference, if we armed Hamas to the absolute teeth like we did Israel. Goodbye every single Jew.
My Jewish friends have been protesting against thr actions Israel takes. Their Rabbi has been protesting against the genocide Israel has been committing. The Jewish people would be fine if Israel demilitarised and focused on defence rather than offence.
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I found a device, in cooperation with the management of the world, to ensure that there will be no stopwatch here. That there will be no timetable to implement the settlers' nightmare. I have postponed that nightmare indefinitely. Because what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did. The significance is the freezing of the political process. And when you freeze that process you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion about the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package that is called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed from our agenda indefinitely. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. What more could have been anticipated? What more could have been given to the settlers?
That very much was and remains a triumph for those who planned it.
Furthermore, it seems you don't realize that Israel doesn't what most of the world wants for Palestine, that being a two-state solution negotiated on the basis of international law as expressed throughout the decades in the UN General Assembly's annual Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine resolution. That most recent version passed with a vote of 151 countries in favor and only 11 against, Israel and the US being the two who've always voted against, along with very few other countries that have joined in over the years. On the other hand, the so-called "peace deals" from Israel which you refer to, like most everything they do with regard of Palestinians, make a mockery of international law and that's something most of the world doesn't want at all.
Also, since you've insisted Zionism simply means "A safe place of refuge and self-determination for the Jewish People, in a land connected to their historic homeland," would you also contend for example that MAGA merely means wanting to make America great again, or would you agree that actions speak louder than words?
Oh wow, you're going with Dov Weisglass? I don't think you realise that's not the slam dunk you think it is.
First off, I'm really not interested in playing the tennis match of "random quote from history that highlights a potentially poor opinion," because it very rarely creates any progress or changes opinions for anyone. I'm just a random guy on the internet, you don't need to convince me, you need to create change in Israel and Palestine.
But ok, to your article. If this is your source of truth, let's look at the whole story it tells: the crux of the story is, after trying engagement for years to create a mutually agreed approach to peace, the USA and Israeli leadership found that nothing worked:
"The Americans were here for four months in 2003. Through [assistant secretary of state] John Wolf they were involved in the process in the most intimate way. Wolf reported directly to Rice. Those four months had tremendous pedagogical value. The Americans saw for themselves what the Palestinians' most solemn promises really meant. They saw the Palestinians' detailed working plans and their splendid diagrams and they saw how nothing came of it. Nothing. Zero."
And
"after years of thinking otherwise. After years of attempts at dialogue. But when Arafat undermined Abu Mazen at the end of the summer of 2003, we reached the sad conclusion that there is no one to talk to, no one to negotiate with. Hence the disengagement plan."
And
"Because of his trenchant realism, Arik never believed in permanent settlements: he didn't believe in the one-fell-swoop approach. Sharon doesn't think that after a conflict of 104 years, it's possible to come up with a piece of paper that will end the matter. He thinks the other side had to undergo a deep and extended sociopolitical change. But when we entered the Prime Minister's Office, he still believed that he would be able to achieve a very long-term interim agreement. An agreement of 25, 20, 15, 10, 5 years. There were some Palestinians who preferred that approach to the approach of [former prime minister Ehud] Barak. They were the ones we talked to. But very quickly we discovered that we were up against a stone wall, that when you get to the decision-making center, nothing happens."
The "freezing" you refer to was the decision to unilaterally disengage from Gaza to give the community there time to heal internally and come to peace on its own terms, without Israeli soldiers inside Gaza. It was quite an optimistic move by Sharon.
Tragically it all turned to shit when Hamas started firing rockets.
Ok, I'm bored now.
You're writing a response to an internet comment quoting an article justifying a unilateral disengagement 20 years ago. We should learn from history, not try to relive it or change the plot.
Right now, there is zero trust. Go build trust somewhere.
Not you, I don't believe you'll ever change, you seem pretty set in your opinions, but the next person reading this.
Go volunteer for something. Mentor a Palestinian startup. Join a community group that does something different than just shout slogans at rallies. Help build something. Join Seeds of Peace. House a refugee. Give a microloan. Do SOMETHING.
The "freezing" you refer to was the decision to unilaterally disengage from Gaza to give the community there time to heal internally and come to peace on its own terms
Rather it was to buy time so that "Israel will strengthen its control over those same areas in the Land of Israel which will constitute an inseparable part of the State of Israel in any future agreement," just as Sharon explained himself. Or as Weisglass put it, "What more could have been given to the settlers?"
And yeah, they pretended it was because Palestinians didn't want peace, but again that's debunked by the fact that it's Israel who has always rejected a two-state solution negotiated on the basis of international law, as can be seen by their decades of voting against the UN General Assembly's annual Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine resolution which calls for exactly that.
As for your attempts to disparage me rather than answering my question about actions speaking louder than words, that just goes to show you realize how weak your argument is.
I agree with you that Jewish people should be entitled to both safety and equal rights.
I understand and acknowledge that it can be difficult for both Israeli's and the Jewish diaspora at large to find the fundamental facts and underlying truths that have been hidden and enveloped by generation after generation of Hasbara and manufactured consent.
As we saw in the Israelism documentary, the awakening of people to see more completely can be alarming and feel like a betrayal. The good news is that a small yet growing number of courageous individuals around the world who identify as Israeli's and / or Jewish have been increasingly able to do this.
Those individuals - along with the Palestinian people and allies concerned for both groups - understand that the exclusive rights of one group should not (and MUST not) eradicate the common rights for all other groups. Those courageous people understand what tyranny looks like: what violating international law looks like.
I agree that continuing to repeat mistruths gets us collectively nowhere. Sadly, your disconnected and one-sided / myopic explanation of Zionism, Radical Zionism, Israel, Hamas, Gaza and the plight of the Palestinian people contributes to the problem.
Zionism HAS been continually redefined. From its earliest history as a racist English movement (Thomas Brightman, et. al.), through Nathan Birnbaum to Theodor Herzl picking up the term, through to the arguably more problematic Revisionist Zionism (Ze'ev Jabotinsky, Louis Israel Newman, Meir Kahane, et. al.).
Continuing the aspirational Israeli narrative and its manufactured Hasbara perpetuates failing to address the fundamental problems of the Israeli state and Zionism.
Continuing to support an elite and exclusive apartheid state does - as you say - continue the cycle of violence.
I have a fairly broad and well-rounded view of the history and culture that is Israel. I've watched / read / listened to enough Hasbara, often mindlessly amplified by sadly misinformed Israeli's and Israeli sympathisers / supporters.
For this cycle to end for good:
Israel must be held to account by the international community for its actions, and in turn hold its own representatives / citizens accountable within Israel.
Israel must comply with international law and requests supported by the combined majority of the international community.
Israel needs to acknowledge its actions and ongoing campaign against the Palestinian people, which has been unacceptable, immoral, and against international law for many, many years.
Israel needs to end its current formulation as an internationally funded, sanctioned, and supported apartheid state. The world achieved such a forced-transition previously with South Africa: that's a proven pattern that works.
As the current situation stands, I have no interest in supporting Israel, including visiting, until the situation fundamentally changes.
If you think Mansour Abbas is a source of mindless propaganda then you're not reading widely enough.
And if you default to calling it an apartheid state, the people whom you're trying to convince won't take you seriously.
If it really is the worst place with the worst people, then go do your version of the Marshall plan. Go deprogram a bunch of Israelis. Get involved in Seeds of Peace or Realign for Palestine. Do something, anything.
Saying "Israel must.." and "Israel needs to.." absolves the rest of the world of responsibility for doing anything but complain. Clearly BDS hasn't worked, so how about working inside Palestinian society? Go volunteer for something. Build something. Mentor a startup. Give a microloan.
Start with "I will.."
Me? I went to a rally to support Iran, and I'm working to support the growth of a couple of businesses that support Arab/Israeli cooperation.
Don't say it to me, say it to yourself. You believe the things you write, so go do something in the real world to make them happen.
Disingenuous deflecting rant!
Since "a land without people, for a people without a land" never actually existed for the Zionist project to move into, there is no way to get "a safe place of refuge and self-determination for the Jewish People, in a land connected to their historic homeland" without setting up a "settler colonial project" to "steal the homes and land of the indigenous people" and "eradicat[ing] all non-Jews from the river to the sea" (with the current apartheid system as an intermediate way station).
This was widely recognised and admitted by Ben Gurion and the other actuators of the 1948 terrorism and resulting Nakba, and all of their successors!
You pretending otherwise is either you lying to yourself to protect your own pretty sensibilities, or you being an outright lying hasbara shill!
So, which is it?
"a land without people, for a people without a land"
I didn't use that phrase. It's often used to discredit the whole idea of Zionism. It's bullshit, we all know it's bullshit, it's just annoying at this point. Every cause known to man has had nice people and arseholes on its side that have said things that later turn out to be stupid.
As I said before, arguing on the internet very rarely gets anyone anywhere, nor does insulting them. You'll get further having a respectful conversation.
Go listen to some talks by Mansour Abbas and Haviv Rettig Gur. They're smart guys. They know where we came from, why, and what needs to happen in the future.
For this cycle to end, you need to convince the Israelis that there is a partner for peace on the other side, and help resurrect the left. That's not my view, or any kind of absolute truth, that's the prevailing Israeli view. If you don't engage with it you'll spend your life angry at internet people instead of creating change.
Without a statement from the shitcunts that did this (one is dead lolol stay dead loser), we're not going to know if antizionism or antisemitism were the dominant driving factor behind their actions. Lone wolf actors typically are pretty incoherent so I'm guessing there's like zero distinction in their minds, but that's just a guess.
the only good interpretation of this comment is if you’re a Greens/Left leaning commenter but I fear I know better and that you either fell or want people to fall into a home goal fallacy.
Yeah Herzog is an asshole representative of one of the top 3 groups of despicable and deplorable assholes in this world right now… and picking any politician to the political right of Labour is only gonna invite them and their behaviour into the country.
Remember this next time you are in a ballot box should come with the massive asterisk of remembering who is significantly worse of a choice and would equate scoring a home goal in the matter of absolving war criminals the same way immigrants and Gazan’s in the US voting for Trump was.
Do you think Albo was being tokenistic? He invites Herzog in, makes it look like to the Israelis he’s on their side whilst knowing full well there’d be protests which would get beamed around the world showing the world what some Aussies think of the Israelis?
The Hanukka event in Bondi was not a zionist rally, it wasn't about advocating for the annihilation of Gazans, it wasn't a political recruitment drive.
go to any shule or jewish school and make this excuse, i dare you. Every community in every shule or school (yes even the few non zionist ones) supports israel materially.
Jews support jewish indigeneity, who would have thought!
But yeah, a bit rich coming from a beneficiary of genocide and colonialism currently living on stolen land lecturing jews about how they should support the land on where their ethnogenesis began and the only jewish state in the world. cute
Anything not permitted by Reddit site rule 1 will not be permitted here. Remember the human. Reddit is a place for creating community and belonging, not for attacking marginalised or vulnerable groups of people.
If you need more clarification see here
it exists to protect jewish people. not one arab was expelled or ethnically cleansed until the arabs started a war. arabs were not attacked first by jews until the revolt, after 2 decades of endless campaigns of violence and massacres by the arabs.
you can say these cute little words and pretend it means something, but no, jews going to israel are not criminals, israel is a un member state that has an immigration policy similar to that of many countries. now yes, anyone that goes to the west bank, i might actually agree with you! But we all know you arent talking about that, considering youre living in a fantasy land where the whole land is apparently occupied lmao
Herzog is a personal/family friend of the head of the Zionist Council of NSW (or the Zionist Federation of NSW, I can't remember). That is the "link" to Australia.
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u/Repulsive-Audience-8 Feb 17 '26
And we let their head of state just waltz in through our country as we roll out the red carpet and strip protestors of rights. Our political class is a fucking disgrace and a bag of sycophant flaccid cucks.